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Poll: Do you like the current direction of balanceFruit.cfg
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balanceFruit.cfg

#76
There is one server Tongue
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#77
nexrun.dyndns.org:26504
[NL] Xonotic balance testing
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#78
Yesterday myself, Lt. Bacon, and /dev/null tested out the balance. Here are some comments gleaned from that session:

- Shotgun primary fire seems about right. It is slower than before, but more powerful. Shotgun secondary is a melee attack, which was ineffective offensively. I don't think this is enough of a reason to get rid of it, as it could be used on smaller, more packed maps or those with a limited weapon set; as it is you'll likely get blasted for even trying a melee. All in all a better alternative to the ridiculously overpowered triple-shot secondary in Nexuiz.

- Nex stickiness is going in the right direction, but there are some bugs there. If you shoot and hit your "alternate weapon" button before the fire animation is through (attempting a combo), then the key presses seem to go into a queue, meaning that if you keep hitting your "alternate weapon" button you'll end up switching numerous times after the nex fire animation completes. I would rather it ignore any switch weapon keypresses while the fire animation is in progress (or until it reaches a certain point), but I'm not sure how possible this is.

- Mortar primary (sticky grenades) were completely ineffective as-is. They went off too soon to be of value. I recommend delaying their explosion time a bit longer. Secondary mortar fire was also ineffective; they should be kept largely as-is.

- Crylink is WAY, WAY too powerful. /dev/null went on a killing spree when he found this out Smile.

- TAG seeker is too powerful; they are hard to escape via normal means, which was frustrating. I'm not sure it should be included.

- Laser seems about right, although I'm not completely sure as the physics were still default and slowish (Fruitie will fix soon?). I was able to reach all areas of the map without problems and bounce LT. Bacon around with me Smile

- Rocket launcher felt normal. I didn't notice any real changes there, which is fine by me.

- Electro is awesome; it produces a steady stream now instead of Contra-like (yeah, you like that?) lasers, requiring precise aim. I love the changes going on there.

So that's all I have for the moment. Fruitie and I are set to test this coming Sunday (that would be 7/25 for most of us). Hop on IRC for more information - perhaps someone can set up the topic appropriately when the time is right!

Adios for now.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#79
Good find with the nex stickiness, never knew about that although at times it felt a little sluggish maybe it was this problem...

Crylink..hmm interesting, we never found it to be too powerul, before I thought it was too weak so we made it stronger b ut this was before anyone else tried it..is it primary or secondary you mean? Because we tried to make it because the primary is slow it is fairly powerful but only really close then it loses it's effectiveness so we tried to balance it out that way, but it cant do any one shot kills still and you need to be close for it to be maximumly effective, and secondary also requires skill to predict at medium/long distances. But well if you can tell me which fire-mode you think is too strong, as your one of the first/few people only to say this we can take a look and see if it needs re-evaluating.

Grenades, ok we reduced the time before, so we will increase it slightly again I think, seems we made it too short then will speak to FrutieX about this and see if he can put it back to it's original timing explode if other's have the same opinion..personally I think your right Smile

As for secondary, you can place your shots now, thats why we changed it as secondary before was just spamming and you couldn't really tell where the nade's would stop was quite random. That was the reason for secondary change.

Good to hear about the laser, seems that has been a good small change keeping it useable Smile

Thanks for constructive feedback also,
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#80
I agree with antibody on most counts. Except:

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Nex stickiness is going in the right direction, but there are some bugs there. If you shoot and hit your "alternate weapon" button before the fire animation is through (attempting a combo), then the key presses seem to go into a queue, meaning that if you keep hitting your "alternate weapon" button you'll end up switching numerous times after the nex fire animation completes. I would rather it ignore any switch weapon keypresses while the fire animation is in progress (or until it reaches a certain point), but I'm not sure how possible this is.
Hated nex stickiness, made it unusable for any fast situation. However, you can still camp without a problem, in fact, while amount of people camping with it won't change, amount of people fighting with it likely will.

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Mortar primary (sticky grenades) were completely ineffective as-is. They went off too soon to be of value. I recommend delaying their explosion time a bit longer. Secondary mortar fire was also ineffective; they should be kept largely as-is.
Stickies should be secondary, with primary reverted to the old way, if we go down this route. I miss the old way the mortar worked.

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - TAG seeker is too powerful; they are hard to escape via normal means, which was frustrating. I'm not sure it should be included.
Definitely include it, but raise primary refire.

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Laser seems about right, although I'm not completely sure as the physics were still default and slowish (Fruitie will fix soon?). I was able to reach all areas of the map without problems and bounce LT. Bacon around with me Smile
Laser was crippled. Not enough push for too much health. I quickly realized this and decided that the small potential advantages were outweighed by the ridiculous amount of damage dealt for little use. I decided early on that the laser was unusable and I did not use it.

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Rocket launcher felt normal. I didn't notice any real changes there, which is fine by me.
Were there changes? It felt different.

(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: So that's all I have for the moment. Fruitie and I are set to test this coming Sunday (that would be 7/25 for most of us). Hop on IRC for more information - perhaps someone can set up the topic appropriately when the time is right!
I'll try to be there.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#81
Update: Fruitie and I had a conversation over IRC, so here is the latest.

The nex "stickiness" with respect to weapon switching is expected behavior - key presses should go into a queue and then executed when they can be. The problem is currently with the lack of a fire animation to provide a visual cue that the player can now switch the weapon. I think once that is added the confusion will go away (those not liking the delay at all will still not like it, though Smile). For now we are stuck with a nex that looks like it can be switched away (pointing straight forward after a shot) but can't because of the delay. The result is that you (or at least I do this) are likely to keep trying to impulse to another weapon - switch, damn you, switch! - and will end up switching N number of times after the delay expires.

In terms of prioritization, it seems most of the concern is around the mortar, so let's focus our testing there for the time being. I feel like most of the other changes are tuning, whereas the mortar has two mutually exclusive functions that people are talking about.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#82
Tested some stuff. Something I completly disliked is the laser. I see no problem with the nexuiz laser. Gaining speed with the laserjumping was something unique and funny, that kept me entertained. Another thing would be the disabling of health regeneration. I don't understand why we should disable it. I also disliked the new movement physics, BUT after some time I managed getting control over it and capture the flag quite fast. So I think it's ok, though I liked nexuiz movement more.

Some weapons are really useful now. I would like to test the new Mortar in a real match (if possible tommorow, because I go on vacation for 3 weeks at sunday morning. Wouldn't be dramatic if we can't organise a match, a beta should prob. be released in those 3 weeks).
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#83
I also like nexuiz movement much more. It feels a whole lot looser, freer, and more liberating.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]
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#84
(07-22-2010, 11:54 AM)Roanoke Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - TAG seeker is too powerful; they are hard to escape via normal means, which was frustrating. I'm not sure it should be included.
Definitely include it, but raise primary refire.
I made it fire 3 shots instead of 4, and damage 33 per missile instead of 40.

(07-22-2010, 11:54 AM)Roanoke Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Laser seems about right, although I'm not completely sure as the physics were still default and slowish (Fruitie will fix soon?). I was able to reach all areas of the map without problems and bounce LT. Bacon around with me Smile
Laser was crippled. Not enough push for too much health. I quickly realized this and decided that the small potential advantages were outweighed by the ridiculous amount of damage dealt for little use. I decided early on that the laser was unusable and I did not use it.
I decreased it's damage a bit, and increased force to 235.

(07-22-2010, 11:54 AM)Roanoke Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: - Rocket launcher felt normal. I didn't notice any real changes there, which is fine by me.
Were there changes? It felt different.
The most notable changes are:
- Damage is just slightly smaller than in Nexuiz.
- Radius is 100 instead of 150.
- Secondary fire will make the explosion 50% weaker.
- Force is 350 instead of 600.
- Rocket speed is 1000 instead of 850.
- Rocket hp is infinite instead of 40.
- Guide rate is 45 deg/s instead of 90 deg/s.
Yes, there were changes (and these aren't even all) Tongue

(07-22-2010, 11:54 AM)Roanoke Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: So that's all I have for the moment. Fruitie and I are set to test this coming Sunday (that would be 7/25 for most of us). Hop on IRC for more information - perhaps someone can set up the topic appropriately when the time is right!
I'll try to be there.
Woo! Hope we can get more ppl also Smile
Spread the word!
(07-22-2010, 11:48 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Good find with the nex stickiness, never knew about that although at times it felt a little sluggish maybe it was this problem...
I'm finding it just perfectly fine, hmm...
Granted, if you hit weap_prev twice while it is in the animtime (waiting for switch) it'll switch back... Though isn't that expected behavior?

(07-22-2010, 11:48 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Crylink..hmm interesting, we never found it to be too powerul, before I thought it was too weak so we made it stronger b ut this was before anyone else tried it..is it primary or secondary you mean? Because we tried to make it because the primary is slow it is fairly powerful but only really close then it loses it's effectiveness so we tried to balance it out that way, but it cant do any one shot kills still and you need to be close for it to be maximumly effective, and secondary also requires skill to predict at medium/long distances. But well if you can tell me which fire-mode you think is too strong, as your one of the first/few people only to say this we can take a look and see if it needs re-evaluating.
I nerfed it for now, so it's dps is a little lower (and the damage from bounces is way lower, it was just too damn random Tongue)

(07-22-2010, 11:48 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Grenades, ok we reduced the time before, so we will increase it slightly again I think, seems we made it too short then will speak to FrutieX about this and see if he can put it back to it's original timing explode if other's have the same opinion..personally I think your right Smile
Oh? Later on irc Antibody requested to lower the timer by just a bit, and so I did Smile

(07-22-2010, 11:48 AM)kojn^ Wrote: As for secondary, you can place your shots now, thats why we changed it as secondary before was just spamming and you couldn't really tell where the nade's would stop was quite random. That was the reason for secondary change.
Haha, here it went in the opposite direction too. Made the secondaries more bouncy, so the enemy is more likely to get hit by the bouncing nade before it's lifetime runs out. (also iirc increased lifetime by just a bit)

Let's test all these changes out more deeply on sunday, need to get some more maps up on the serv until that BTW!
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#85
after playing around a bit more with the this balance I agree with kojn^. we can leave the mortar! Maybe make the primary fire exploding a bit later, but I can live with that!
It is good now for looking if anyone is coming through a door or at edges. Not soooooooo bad!
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#86
Not that you can actually trigger it at the right moment. It's mostly luck rather than timing or skill.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#87
(07-22-2010, 02:16 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 11:54 AM)Roanoke Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 07:40 AM)Antibody Wrote: So that's all I have for the moment. Fruitie and I are set to test this coming Sunday (that would be 7/25 for most of us). Hop on IRC for more information - perhaps someone can set up the topic appropriately when the time is right!
I'll try to be there.
Woo! Hope we can get more ppl also Smile
Spread the word!

I'll try to be there too if I can just get xonotic to compile.

Quote:Let's test all these changes out more deeply on sunday, need to get some more maps up on the serv until that BTW!
Paste me links of your fav maps... Smile

Some open maps would be good. Like Accident and Reborn from ol' Nex. Maybe use the Xonotic WIP maps too if you aren't already.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#88
i definitively want the old mortar back. as i said, the mortar feels like a classical grenade launcher, and sticky grenades arent classical. for me it is additionally unusable because it makes damage about 2sec after i fired, which makes it extremely difficult to "aim" (well, its more like shooting on the ground and hoping that someone is in the near when the grenades explode...)

i dont like the hexagonal fire from the crylink. hexagonal...wtf? why hexagonal? i dont see any reason why the old crylink primary should be changed (i liked the secondary too.... now we have just another fast firing weapon...).

the laser secondary is pretty useless as it does constant damage and it is extremely difficult to keep an enemy directly in front of you for longer than 0.5 sec. laser primary is no fun anymore.


i just dont see any reason to change these 3 weapons. there are other weapons which are more problematic (the fast firing weapons and nex and camping rifle. they should be changed, not the weapons which are already different from the others.
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#89
Fair enough with your mortar comment, you obviously don't like it so I can't say much else on that.

As for the crylink, there was no reason to make it hexagonal..I wanted a random spread when it fires about the same radius size of the hexagonal but i'm not sure if it's possible at the moment, your the first person on here who has said that they don't like it actually, some have said it's too strong so frutiex has now decreased the DPS (damager per second) and the bounce of the shot damage.

I don't think we can keep changing things constantly otherwise it's going to just go wrong.

Granted with the mortar I see there is some people not liking it at the moment, some do so there is an issue there.

For the crylink..this one is really much better then nexuiz's I really feel, no one used that one much after the point is that if you get a weapon it is useable so that more weapons are used also, and before it was too strong fired too fast and the secondary was pretty much never used then it got made weaker and then it felt too weak (primary).
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#90
I'd like to add another thought to the stickyness of the Nex. While testing this on a bot I noticed that after some time of playing I intuitively used the nex only for shooting at targets from a distance in a way that I shoot and immediately move behind a wall. Whenever I use it in close combat, the Nex is deadly (for me), if a) the opponent isn't fragged by one hit or, more often, b) I miss.

I didn't really think about that behavior, it came like intuitively and I wonder if this will not eventually lead to encourage using the Nex for camping only. I know camping isn't bad per se, but I always found it most impressive if people use the Nex in close combat very effectively.

The stickyness discourages people to use the Nex in close combat.

Just my two cents. I think I can get used to the stickyness if I must, but probably I simply won't use the Nex very often anymore then.

Edit: as for the crylink, the primary fire mode is indeed too strong (as of the day before yesterday). Due to the high spread and wide splash damage you cannot really escape it unless you run away behind a wall or corner but that way you cannot attack very well anymore. In close combat and mid-range combat the primary fire mode is absolutely deadly and requires little to no skill to use.

I like the concept of the fire modes, though, so I'd suggest to simply reduce the damage dealt accordingly.

Another Edit: personally I really like the sticky grenades, even though they turn the mortar into a defensive weapon. Since many people complain about how it's hard to really hit someone with the mortar, maybe we can consider something different: we already have the electro that fires balls similar to the mortar secondary fire. How about we declare this redundant and put the current mortar primary on secondary and use the old mortar primary with greatly reduced damage (but same or greater push force) for current mortar primary? Big Grin So we'd have:

mortar primary same as Nexuiz mortar primary with reduced damage
mortar secondary same as current Xonotic mortar primary

...and another edit (ideas keep coming...): do the sticky grenades stick also to jump pads (not sure how it is currently)? I'd suggest they'd bounce on jump pads and stick whenever they hit firm ground.
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#91
(07-23-2010, 03:17 AM)Halogene Wrote: mortar primary same as Nexuiz mortar primary with reduced damage
mortar secondary same as current Xonotic mortar primary

Would completly work for me, IF the damage isn't reduced heavily.
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#92
The problem is, it seems some people (not you) on here want every weapon to be able to be used in every situation regardless if an opponent is far away or not, I mean come on, that's the point of the weapons having advantages and disadvantages..what people SAID they needed before on the AT forums, I can't remember the word Unknown used yesterday to explain but basically have some kind of tactical essense and balance and skill of using each weapon in a given situation, allowing a weapon to be used in any situation doesn't really take time to learn to use something effectively.

As with the nex, if people want to camp with it, they will, there's nothing you can do to stop this, now atleast it does 100 damage, and you can still use it in close quarter combat you just need to be prepared that you may not be able to swap to another weapon quickly straight away. So advantage is it's range, but disadvantage is also it's range close up because you will most likely need to stay in combat with it vs someone, or use some timing when to change weapon or if you will be able to and still get a frag, which balances it against other close-up weapons, like the crylink, electro, shotgun etc.

See, advantages and disadvantage of using each weapon in each situation, it's a long range weapon mainly so there's it's advantage, it's advantage is not per-se in close-quarter combat but it can STILL be used. This is what i'm trying to get at, everything should have some kind of counter-balance.

I'm willing to test the mortar suggestion of yours, not with a huge force though, I would keep the force in perspective to the other weapons, but I don't see a reason not too try your idea of putting the old mortar primary to the primary of the current mortar and sticky nades secondary..but again, where is it's disadvantage going to be? Will become an offensive and defensive weapon and have good range close and long distances. See where I'm going with this?

Oh and he lowered the DPS on crylink due to feedback so it should be more balanced in it's effectiveness at different ranges now and damage dealt.
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#93
Yeah! A weapon for every situation would be bad! thank you for testing our mortar suggestions! Big Grin
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#94
I will have to provide a more coherent opinion after this Sunday's testing. Yesterday was my first time on a bigger map, and the physics changes (and my deficiency with them) were too apparent to ignore! I was totally distracted in trying to figure out how I wanted to move. I'll have to work w/ kojn and fruitie on better movement before I can come to a conclusion about weapons, because movement is a critical variable there.

That being said, there were a few occasions where I had the flag and was backpedaling w/ the mortar, hoping to use it defensively by laying "traps" for my pursuers. This failed miserably and I was quickly fragged on each of those occasions Smile. I like the idea of making the mortar primary like it used to be w/ reduced damage (and push isn't something I worry too much about) and putting the sticky grenades on secondary. More to come this weekend!
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#95
thx for taking your time to test this, kojn. But please be sure to reduce the old Nexuiz' mortar primary fire damage - otherwise it will be too useful in too many situations indeed.

I also agree that weapons need to have certain situations where they are more effective than in other situations and that not all weapons should be equally useful in any situation. With my comment on the stickyness of the nex I just wanted to point you to the fact, that this will emphasize the focus of the nex on long distance shots even more than the nex is already focussed on that.
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#96
(07-23-2010, 03:17 AM)Halogene Wrote: mortar primary same as Nexuiz mortar primary with reduced damage
mortar secondary same as current Xonotic mortar primary

Hmm this is something we have to consider... If a compromise will be needed, this'll be it. There's a point there, the current mortar secondary functions similar to the electro secondary Smile
I think less such similarities = good...
p.s. If the mortar were kept as it is in current balanceFruit, it'd need a rename too. A "mortar" fires projectiles that explode right on impact, afaik Wink And neither fire modes do this currently.

(07-23-2010, 03:17 AM)Halogene Wrote: ...and another edit (ideas keep coming...): do the sticky grenades stick also to jump pads (not sure how it is currently)? I'd suggest they'd bounce on jump pads and stick whenever they hit firm ground.

They already do bounce off of jumppads, and stick only when they hit somthing solid
(07-23-2010, 07:37 AM)Halogene Wrote: With my comment on the stickyness of the nex I just wanted to point you to the fact, that this will emphasize the focus of the nex on long distance shots even more than the nex is already focussed on that.

Or, it means you will have to use another weapon to bring the health of your opponent down, and then finish him off with the Xon rifle (while he possibly even escapes) Wink
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#97
So what happened to replacing the Nex with the Rifle?

Because that would eliminate the need for "stickiness", which is itself just a hack to try and balance the poorly designed and chronically overpowered weapon that the Nex is.

Just replace it with the Rifle's functionality, so that skillful head shots have to be made to do enough damage in a fight. Precise shots actually become more difficult at close range when a target's angular velocity is greater (meaning you have to aim more aggressively to keep him in your crosshairs).

An additional option is the feature built into the Nex currently but unused, that allows its damage to increase over range, thus starting out very small and then snowballing to something worthwhile at a considerable distance. This is the most surefire way to lock the Nex into the long ranged weapon, or sniper category.

So I'd recommend implementing either the headshot or range dependent damage features, or both, and then turning off stickiness.

And then if any Nex whores complain that they don't like this direction for the Nex and it must remain game breaking because that's how things have always been, then you can turn stickiness back on to show them the price for standing against justice! Big Grin
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#98
So camping with a nex = good, using nex in combos = bad... Err. What exactly are you smoking. wanna share some of that?
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#99
(07-23-2010, 10:24 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: So what happened to replacing the Nex with the Rifle?

Because that would eliminate the need for "stickiness", which is itself just a hack to try and balance the poorly designed and chronically overpowered weapon that the Nex is.
Nah, the mappers just should not place a Nex/Xon rifle on a big open map anymore. The Xon rifle makes more sense for smaller maps, where the player now actually will have to cope with it's disadvantage (the "stickyness"). I absolutely demand a Q3-rail like gun (what the nex was, and will be) for close-mid range fights that isn't crippled by requiring headshots to have any use.

(07-23-2010, 10:24 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: An additional option is the feature built into the Nex currently but unused, that allows its damage to increase over range, thus starting out very small and then snowballing to something worthwhile at a considerable distance. This is the most surefire way to lock the Nex into the long ranged weapon, or sniper category.
Which is exactly what we don't want? Tongue

(07-23-2010, 10:24 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: And then if any Nex whores complain that they don't like this direction for the Nex and it must remain game breaking because that's how things have always been, then you can turn stickiness back on to show them the price for standing against justice! Big Grin
Stickiness ftw, it should fix all the problems with the weapon (except long range sniping, this is up to the mappers to take care of)
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(07-23-2010, 11:06 AM)FruitieX Wrote: I absolutely demand a Q3-rail like gun (what the nex was, and will be) for close-mid range fights that isn't crippled by requiring headshots to have any use.

Well if you look at things from the perspective of absolute demands or requirements over what is balanced and straightforward, you just run the risk of this becoming the third rebalance attempt in a row to never see the light of day (IOW, a default stable release).

I mean what about making the Nex much more shock rifle like? Or using the damage-range falloff or reverse falloff? Or the recharge timer simply being paused when you switch to other weapons?

Are you unwilling to look at other options like these which could cleanly fix the problem?

Quote:Which is exactly what we don't want? Tongue

Well kojn's talking about making the Nex work more exclusively as a sniper weapon and now you're saying you want it to be exclusively close-medium ranged and then you add stickiness which only makes the weapon worse at the ranges you want so. . .

Who is "we" and why are they doing what they don't want to do? Undecided

Quote:Stickiness ftw, it should fix all the problems with the weapon (except long range sniping, this is up to the mappers to take care of)

It's the messiest of the available solutions.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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