This cheap ripoff will have 100 times as many players as Xonotic....

... and people will even pay for it:



Meanwhile, Xonotic remains a hidden gem. Discuss.

I got banned from the browser version some time ago.. Too much aim too fast.

They seem to be very strict with the art design, which limits the gameplay significantly. Those rat perspective kitchens, living rooms and whatnot gets boring very fast because they lack the depth and complexity of "arenas". Only good thing I can think of that game is that it's available in Steam.

I wonder if Smilecythe can explain how Toxikk currently has much more players then Reflex (With all-time peak players being almost 5x as many compared to reflex). Even though it's meant to be aweful/inferior game?

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RATZ looks more interesting then I thought looks fun, art-style looks quite interesting actually, love the boxing ring! Someone said you couldn't even jump in that game before to me.

RATZ looks more interesting then I thought looks fun, art-style looks quite interesting actually, love the boxing ring! Someone said you couldn't even jump in that game before to me.

You can jump and unless you don't have a finger to spare for jump key, your jumping skills will be on par with the highest skill the moment you step in. Perhaps that's what they really meant.

My Ratz instagib review in a nutshell: Simple game without ambition done with a FPS equivalent of game maker studio. I played it, it was fun for a short while. If I wanted instagib, I'd pick one with more challenge, variety and people not banning me. I predict short life span.

I wonder if Smilecythe can explain how Toxikk currently has much more players then Reflex (With all-time peak players being almost 5x as many compared to reflex). Even though it's meant to be aweful/inferior game?

It's not a miracle at work there, it looks deceptively more finished and you don't get outskilled as badly there. Two things checked for casuals and new timers whose enjoyment requires victory in the long run. I dislike Toxikk, it repeats everything UT3 did wrong, I hate Unreal Engines, the project and positive feedback about it doesn't intrigue me, need you know more?

Doesn't Xonotic remain hidden because thats what the devs want? If we truly wanted to put ourselves out there, then isn't steam one message away?

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It's not a miracle at work there, it looks deceptively more finished and you don't get outskilled as badly there. Two things checked for casuals and new timers whose enjoyment requires victory in the long run. I dislike Toxikk, it repeats everything UT3 did wrong, I hate Unreal Engines, the project and positive feedback about it doesn't intrigue me, need you know more?
[/quote]

Ah so you've changed your tune from reflex will beat it hands down!

Doesn't Xonotic remain hidden because thats what the devs want? If we truly wanted to put ourselves out there, then isn't steam one message away?

Let's not have this kind of discussion again. It's not "one message away". It's "some effort to integrate (stats for example), and also some thought on whether we are really ready for this kind of massive advertisement we can only do once"-away. Use the search tool, look up "steam" in these forums, and read the latest discussions.

The devs do not want Xonotic to remain hidden. I don't know where you got that from, but if you're forcing yourself not to talk about Xonotic because you think it would do us a disservice, please stop doing that.

I think I originally got that impression from Samual. Maybe I am mistaken. Anyhow, that hasn't stopped me from telling people I know about Xonotic.

The only disservice I do to Xonotic is frag noobs or tell them to press F11.

Honestly I think it's its community (just a guess, I don't know it), I don't play minsta in Xonotic but maybe minsta in Xonotic is more hardcore than minsta in that game? (so easier for beginners?) Might also be other way around, of course. To me that game look like shit, and that is neglecting the fact its minsta.

May I ask what you mean by rip off btw? I mean, did Xonotic invent minsta and fast movement? Or is it same engine or something?

As for Toxikk being more popular than Reflex, well, try Reflex and you'll notice you can't run it, and modifying settings is thru console which most players have never heard of (besides console being a old scary thing). Also, Reflex got like CPMA players and shit, so won't be easy to get in to despite new maps and such.

EDIT: To be fair, it's not like CPMA are magically elites, CA in CPMA is kinda casual and I managed to play some TDM before I was even decent at Xonotic, but what I mean is a lot of CPMA players have like 10years of experience, and that fact makes them freaking good even if they ain't actively practicing.

The kind of games I've had in Reflex so far:
Getting butt kicked by Smilecythe
Kicking butt off a total Quake-esque newcomer
Getting butt kicked even harder by CPMA player
1 decent game (10 - 8, I lost, but at least I got a chance)
Lagging in FFA
Greifing map servers
Making maps (FUN!)

EDIT2: When I think about it this game looks almost exactly like Wsw, is it same engine?

Also, I've said this before:

People expect free games tp be quick fun and don't plan to imvest time in them, paid games they expect to be more in-depth and can actually go through a tutoriaö before starting without feeling like they are wasting time.

Reflex is a custom built engine I thought Machine, Smilecythe can probably clarify.

It has it's movement going for it, but I agree, majority of stuff needs to be done via console and also the majority of it's players are hardcore players from the backgrounds you stated which doesn't bode well for its long-term financial viability on steam, by this I mean I don't see them getting a lot of people buying the game.

I think as a defrag type of game, it'll be excellent though with all it's movement mechanics/tricks.

I think they have made the mistake of putting it on steam too early though, how long is it going to be before it get's it's placeholders replaced - serious question here? It's all fine for the hardcore players of course but for casual's they won't try it again until it get's things like that and by that point, I expect people to be sufficiently raping those casual players even harder.

Say what you want about Toxikk, but it has 3 different game-modes currently, DM FFA / TDM and VCTF/CTF and has a easy-laid out road-map which they have obviously thought about (And so far they are meeting the thing's they stated on it), that's one of the good thing's, they actually have well laid out plan towards a 1.0 release and as long as they meet there target's for releasing maps/fixing bugs it will be out by May/June.

The one thing Reflex does do much better so far is the map-making side and the number of maps it currently has. It would not surprise me if Reflex stays around longer - due to it's hardcore crowd, but I think Toxikk will be the more popular game out of the two overall.

Yes, Reflex is custom engine. The engine *feels* extremely smooth but it *is* extremely unoptimized. Basically when they move more of the load to CPU and make it playable it will be much better. Plus it will need matchmaking.

May I ask what you mean by rip off btw? I mean, did Xonotic invent minsta and fast movement? Or is it same engine or something?

I did not say that it was a Xonotic ripoff. My point was that they take one aspect that is part of multiple arena fps and sell it on its own. That alone is not a bad thing, but if such a ripoff has more players than the "whole deal" which offers that one aspect and much more (for free even), then something is wrong.

People expect free games tp be quick fun and don't plan to imvest time in them, paid games they expect to be more in-depth and can actually go through a tutoriaö before starting without feeling like they are wasting time.

I do not think one can generalize like that. Beside of that, it is irrelevant in this case as that gamemode does not require an in-depth tutorial.

Yes, Reflex is custom engine. The engine *feels* extremely smooth but it *is* extremely unoptimized. Basically when they move more of the load to CPU and make it playable it will be much better. Plus it will need matchmaking.

It's not a custom engine, it's a new engine made from scrap and it's a work in progress, a work process which Toxikk completely skipped which gives it the illusion of being more ready when it's actually just less work done on it. Also, you can't optimize something that you haven't finished yet, that's not how developing an engine works. When you make a map you don't start from optimizing the brush count, light effects and whatnot. Engine is a huge part of a game, so much that it would be on par with making a remake of a map with very little freedom to change the layout vs making one entirely from scrap and planning it ahead for everything you want out from it.

Reflex devs are able to add nice things like ingame multiplayer map-making and anything you'd possibly need in the future (including matchmaking), because they're in full control of the engine, that's something Toxikk/Reakktor studios doesn't have, that's something Xonotic doesn't have either. Ever wondered why Xonotic doesn't have ragdoll physics for player models? My guess is limitations in the engine code and working around it is too much work. They don't have the same options and freedom Reflex devs have. I don't care which game is more popular, that's not how I pick games to play. I care more about which game does it right and my pick is Reflex.

@kojn: Toxikk is not for me, you'll have to play without me. Deal with it

Honestly I think it's its community (just a guess, I don't know it), I don't play minsta in Xonotic but maybe minsta in Xonotic is more hardcore than minsta in that game? (so easier for beginners?) Might also be other way around, of course. To me that game look like shit, and that is neglecting the fact its minsta.

With "cheap ripoff" I think we could refer to the alt fire "rocket jumping" aka secondary laser for minstagun in Xonotic, which is very iconic for Xonotic/Nexuiz instagib, also what Asyyy said. If you've never played instagib in Xonotic then you're missing on a lot, regardless it's simplicity it somehow manages to be more versatile in gameplay than vanilla due to more maps being compatible with it and that's just sad imo.

Minsta/minstagib stands for Mutator Instagib btw, mutator means a gameplay changing gimmick eg. low gravity. Instagib being the core gameplay of ratz it's not much of a mutator, just putting that out there

Well, take what I say with a grain of salt, I was mostly curious what made this a rip off and rest was just I write what I thought sorry if I write some off topic stuff. Thanks for clarifying, didn't thought about the alt-fire. And yes, Smilecythe, I know its their own engine that is what I meant.

My Nex aim has never been any good and even if I learn minsta would change that it's simply too boring for me, I don't say there is no skill in it, it's just that the items and the depth of gameplay deriving from that is what I like most about Xonotic, not the fact that you shoot your enemies.

I think I originally got that impression from Samual. Maybe I am mistaken. Anyhow, that hasn't stopped me from telling people I know about Xonotic.

The only disservice I do to Xonotic is frag noobs or tell them to press F11.

I apologize for the tone of my previous message. I seemed a bit angry. I don't actually think someone would refrain from talking about Xonotic because of what has been said about no advertising. It of course meant that we're not officially reaching out until we feel that we're ready for it

Also, I'm off-topic now. Sorry! I'm done!