My opinions of Xonotic.

hey btw quad ,

i thought movement was hard , but i checked settings and found client side prediction was off.
im sure i didnt touch it , so maybe yours is off too , idk... (default???) (thanks to the guys on irc that helped me)
anyway now its fixed and wow! , movement is better , i really do like it.
so just check ya settings and stick with it bro , have faith , dont leave

:^

Hm. Okay this thread is pretty much negative quite a lot.

I totally agree that the only people who had any valued input were the likes of Kojn and most other "good players" this is why they were actually good, it was built around them.

This isn't quite true, I already played many games before nexuiz, mainly FPS game's (all of the UT series upto ut2004, and some quake3 CPMA), nexuiz was never built around the good player's I think that's an untrue comment.

As for the rest of this thread, there seems to be some concensus that I go 'hey div0, change electro kapishe? Div0: Hello good sir, done for you kojn', it just doesn't happen like this at all, I didn't work with frutiex on creating a balancing thead for over a month and put in weeks of groundwork before hand if that is how things work, I have always had a close relationship with quite a lot of the dev's, esteel, tZork, morfar, div0, frutiex mainly, if I had some technical abilitiy to do stuff like knowing how to commit stuff or setting up my own branch within GIT, I would ask if I could officially join the team, I guess I need some help in stuff like this. However I have ALWAYS been active on the forums since I started playing (nexuiz 1.0 or 1.1, just after morfar started ).

Another point is that it doesn't seem to be that no one else put forward any kind of balance option, I already spoke to div0 and he told me some time ago that the SVN stuff was not going to be acceptable and from this I was already in contact with frutiex about creating a new balance and putting it forward once we felt we had enough to share with the community who were on here at the time, div0 already denied some stuff (like the strafing), at first I couldn't understand why but I didn't call him an idiot or say it's rubbish instead he said that if there was a way to have better turning and movement without strafing that he would look into accepting it as default (he also explained to me about the strafebot so then I understood).

Yes a lot of stuff in the current balance is 'different', but for who was around at the time, I actively put a thread up and asked for oppinions and contributions, for the balance that was created (frutiex did the majority of the work) I asked people to come help, test, and give feedback on those weapons that were created or changed, nearly all the feedback was positive in the sense nearly know one went 'omg change weapon X to this X' this wasn't the goal of the weapon balance put forward, it wasn't to change a weapon completely on someone's request but rather how to improve it from what frutiex and I had put forward, quite a lot of suggestions were put forward.

I always asked the guys testing at the time to be patient and give me a chance to show the weapons out to them and explain why the changes were made, improvements were suggested that the majority preferred and so got changed..we had a lot of input especially on the mortar and laser changes. One of the goals of the balance was to try not to make the game so aerial for a vast majority of the time..nexuiz suffered a lot from this especially in CTF which turned it into a 3 or 4 weapon game too often, shotgun, MG, nex, laser and some crylink, reason for this was because player's were just in the air for such a vast amount of time and player's were able to cap in such short time's, the other weapons were becoming mainly redundant, also in other game-mode's areas of maps were accessible nearly all of the time from laserjumping because it was all too easy.

Just wanted to clear up a few points.

Did I already say that I very much like what is happening to Xonotic? I think this thread needs some positive feedback, too. The physics are very fast (which I like) and the weapon balance makes me want to have every weapon that is available just because they all are useful. The looks are amazing and we'll have great music. Did I forget something?

So... ...when can we expect a beta release?

Hm. Okay this thread is pretty much negative quite a lot.

I totally agree that the only people who had any valued input were the likes of Kojn and most other "good players" this is why they were actually good, it was built around them.

Now you got our plan, damnit

Ok now serious, kojn wrote it down allready. I had to smile when I read this part of your post. Good players are just better because they adapt better to all the situation in the game. When weapons are imbalanced, good players will abuse it and especially know how to abuse it! When decisions have to be made, they choose one of the better decisions. That makes a good player, not the platform they are playing on. Because of the game knowledge they have, they also know what is wrong and what not. But there is never just one solution to fix a problem and that is the reason for discussing balance fixes in the forum.

I would like to thank all the developers of xonotic. I just wish to address the people who have a negative outlook on the game.
When the game is released there are going to be people who enjoy it and people who hate it. After playing it for some time separate communities will change the settings as they see fit. In this regard this thread is a little useless. I appreciate the need for players trying to get there opinions out there, but the fact is that the coding guys will create the game and then the different communities can take the game in there own direction. Different servers can be set up to cater for the needs of all players, which has been done rly well by the aussienexers admins.

So there is no need to get all worked up about it. The coders are providing a platform, from which they hope, the most people will be made happy.

Just tried out xonotic today
I like the new models and I especially like the XON/Nex model.
I love the Electro primary. Now the name makes sense! , not sure on the secondary though. The melee attack on the shotgun will be really useful especially in DM. The sticky mortar is so fricken awesome!!! The crylink secondary seemed more useful and should be the primary fire. Glad to see the tag seeker back . W00t! I was kinda disappointed in the RL I preferred the super curvy rockets from Nexuiz. The movement felt weird and laser jumping frustrated me a bit. However, I do understand that the physics are different and will take some time to get used to.


Overall I'm happy with the weapons and look of xonotic so far.
What's with the negative comments ? The Devs spend sooo much time and effort they deserve better than comments like "It straight up sucks." If you don't like something give constructive criticism or just STFU


Thank You for your efforts Dev Team

I think div0 summed up some very good points in the Trends Thread, points I had been trying to make before that. Anyone on here that is being unconstructively criticial ("You have ruined our game!") should be directed to it and take these points to heart:

Anyway, here some more statements on this:

• The game balance changes are FAR from final, but fix some quite bad issues with Nexuiz balance (Nex overpowered, Electro prim == rocket, Electro sec == grenade, HLAC == MG, SG secondary either useless or dominating)
  
• The physics changes may be unusual, but are for the better once you're used to them. You can still move SIMILAR to Nexuiz, but have extra abilities like in CPMA to be able to retain more speed in narrow areas: rapid turning by strafe key, smooth turning by just forward+turn. A tutorial video/demo on these is in the makings. Still, the general idea is quite final, but the values are open to change and suggestions are welcome (especially in the sense of slower/faster). Also, these movement physics plug a cheating/speedhack issue that has been discovered in the old ones.
  
• If people complain that they want "everything just like in Nexuiz 2.5.2", then they are welcome to play Nexuiz 2.5.2. Each major release does balance changes - in fact, Xonotic is becoming what otherwise would have become Nexuiz 3.0, and not Nexuiz 2.5.3. Destructive criticism is not helpful for development. Be constructive, or don't be surprised that you are ignored.
  
• There soon will be a public beta where exactly these things will be tried out with more people. Note that feedback from old Nexuiz players is NOT a top priority to us - Nexuiz always had the problem that quite a lot of people downloaded it, yet only few continued playing. Clearly there IS something wrong with the Nexuiz game. The changes (e.g. partially CPMA-like movement physics) are also geared to retain new players (who come from other games) longer to finally get them hooked. If we disgruntle half of the Nexuiz players, but gain just 350 new players, we have multiplied our player base by four! We do not WANT to disgruntle that many, of course, but you see what the situation is.
  
• One issue here is not lack of, but too much, transparency. In a non-FOSS game, you'd have only had one single chance to complain: after release. Here you can try every day what is new in our git repositories. This is what is leading to us having to justify every change again every day! Obviously that is not the solution. If FOSS means that change is not possible because of having to spend more time justifying your changes to the public than you'd have to spend in closed source development on pointless meetings, then FOSS is a failed concept. I am trying to keep the transparency - we WANT people to try out what is "hot" in the repository, but we expect from you cooperation, not just destructive criticism. Tell us how we can do better! Send us patches of your proposed changes! It's best if you do that timely after a change, and not months after the fact. Closely watch the commit messages in the repository, and try out stuff that may be interesting or that you may oppose!
  

So first of all, thanks to the devs for doing what they have done so far, taking Nexuiz to the next level of maturity, but also a huge thanks for they way they are presenting themselves at the moment, with excellent posts like the one quoted above.

And as a final note: you can hardly involve a playerbase more than they have tried to do so far. If you want more influence, you need to get involved on the dev side yourself! Anything else you might want to do is right here for you, as stated by Div. A patch, new settings, constructive criticism on this forum, you name it! And if you feel like your voice of reason is ignored, by any means, speak a little louder

agree with you Pink.
And I hope that the dev team is also convinced of the efficiency of such "visible" posts.
Aren't you, div0?

as a point , this is a "new" game , so think back to when ya 1st found nexuiz , you had to learn stuff , regardless...

and it took time , no?

well then....

change up my funky brother!

:^

"The laserjumps were an important part of nexuiz. Now i think you'll get problems getting in the top of soylent map"
I even think it needs to do more damage, so you'll do less jumps before dying instead of reducing push...

WHY DIDN'T YOU ALL SHOW UP EARLIER, WHEN ALL THIS STUFF WAS BEING PLANNED?

One of the problem in the Nexuiz/Xonotic community is that those who complain loudest get what they want. Post "NERF NEX!!!" once a day and it will be nerfed.

If you post a reasonable opinion in a well-behaved way, you won't be heard.

For example, when the discussion about the new CTF scoring system took place, I and many others gave our arguments against it. (http://www.alienTRAP.org/forum/viewtopic...=11&t=5566)

It was implemented anyway. And these days I don't hear anyone saying he likes it, but nonetheless it is implemented on nearly all servers.

(And yes, I only play on the server which doesn't use it...)

Lesson learned: I gave up trying to argue against the street kids who can shout louder.
Lesson yet to learn (IMHO): how to organize digesting community feedback.

Thank you, Oblivion, for opening that thread back then.

"The laserjumps were an important part of nexuiz. Now i think you'll get problems getting in the top of soylent map"
I even think it needs to do more damage, so you'll do less jumps before dying instead of reducing push...

I considered that. Then I realized you don't use the laser only on yourself.
Besides, the lower push is desired, for the reason that was stated dozens of times before: Nexuiz had too much vertical freedom of movement, which put a big restriction on mappers.

WHY DIDN'T YOU ALL SHOW UP EARLIER, WHEN ALL THIS STUFF WAS BEING PLANNED?

One of the problem in the Nexuiz/Xonotic community is that those who complain loudest get what they want. Post "NERF NEX!!!" once a day and it will be nerfed.

If you post a reasonable opinion in a well-behaved way, you won't be heard.

For example, when the discussion about the new CTF scoring system took place, I and many others gave our arguments against it. (http://www.alienTRAP.org/forum/viewtopic...=11&t=5566)

It was implemented anyway. And these days I don't hear anyone saying he likes it, but nonetheless it is implemented on nearly all servers.

(And yes, I only play on the server which doesn't use it...)

Lesson learned: I gave up trying to argue against the street kids who can shout louder.
Lesson yet to learn (IMHO): how to organize digesting community feedback.

Thank you, Oblivion, for opening that thread back then.

I couldn't more agree with you.
I also gave up to give my opinion to not increase the total amount of noise on the line.

But, what could we do?

Actually, it's always a vain illusion to hope that a good concensual idea will come up spontaneously when putting many people around a table.

One condition of success is a mediator, that is someone who is neutral, in charge to 1) reframe discussions when there are too many disgressions and to 2) draw a conclusion at the end of discussions.

Orally, it's pretty easy to do.
On a web forum, this is more difficult. Be still not impossible, imo.

@Rokeen:
Lesson yet to learn (IMHO): how to organize digesting community feedback.

agree.


my text(s) wasnt answered at all. only some my critic points and not my ideas(maybe more constructive or im ignored?).
its just frustrating to write a text in english(shame on me) and nobody is trying to answer the whole text.
i was trying to help with my ideas, wanted to show you how it could work, but i see its senseless.
its only another thread with a lot of people crying at each other and in the end its forgotten.

maybe we should close this thread. i have no problem with it, because quadratic who started this thread, is gone.

@rage: normally a good idea. but find a mediator who is well known and who is really neutral. but if u find somebody we can try it^^.....u?

@CrrazzyRulezz: as for continuity, the point has been raised quite some times already: Xonotic is NOT Nexuiz. Plus: Nexuiz 2.6 will/would have had major changes to physics and weapon balance, too.

The clan news system you proposed is interesting - though I think there is a "message of the day" function server-side already which could be used for info like that.

But I think it won't be very effective in helping new players come and stay to play. My opinion might be biased because I personally don't have any interest in clans at all, but I imagine if you are a new player then your first concern won't be what clans are doing. I think clan memberships can be a great thing (for those who like that) for diving deeper into the game, but I believe the problem is getting new players to really KNOW the game in the first place.

In order to introduce new players to the new balance and physics we would need a decent tutorial (single player mode explaining stuff) and/or special servers where experienced players play and offer themselves as tutors (e.g. with a special tag attached to their nick or something).

A clan system would be nice, but i'm the same with Halogene it's not normally on a new player's mind. What would help though is a tutorial in-game (if possible), or beginner's server's where experienced player's can help (not just bash them on the server) to help show them some basic movement to get them going etc.

One of the main reasons before for not being able to retain player's from other FPS game's who already had experience with clans etc, was that they disliked the game, the main issues were movement & gameplay, I also believe it's the same with new player's too, or a lot of them. Xonotic is such a big improvement on nexuiz already in my eyes in all area's but movement especially

As for clan system etc, there is already big sites such as clanbase.com and ESL where with enough petitioning you'd have a good chance to get the game on the site with enough player's backing it, places like these already have a good reputation and everything is already in-place, however you need to be able to get ON them first of all, the other way to do it is have a official xonotic clan-site/league but someone needs to set this up -z- did nexuizclans.com before but inactivity had already kicked in a bit before-hand and it never really took off.

maybe we should close this thread. i have no problem with it, because quadratic who started this thread, is gone.

Hm, I still see some good points being made here, including the ones you just brought up, so let's just keep it open and see what comes out. We might as well do it here.

I also pretty much stopped any real discussion on the AT forum, because there was no place for moderate posts there. Mostly, what I said was only being ignored by everyone else. So I can relate there, it's uncomforting to spend a lot of time on a well thought out post and then have it ignored completely. Here it is pretty different though I feel, I mean, people are interacting with me in this thread and others... It's great xD

@halogene: i like ur post

as for continuity, the point has been raised quite some times already: Xonotic is NOT Nexuiz. Plus: Nexuiz 2.6 will/would have had major changes to physics and weapon balance, too.

Xonotic is not Nexuiz and i know that. its ok if they make another game, but if they change the same thing like in nexuiz ( physic/weapons) , nothing will change in my opinion. thats why i think, we need more or other changes.
btw. keep ur new physic and change weapons if u want but u need much more to become a really good game.
nexuiz 2.6 is only another patch and we have to deal with it. i hope xonotic makes it better, thats all.
btw. I didnt say nexuiz is a good game. nexuiz is dead, only the australian scene is really cool, and maybe our minsta scene they have really good tourneys.

The clan news system you proposed is interesting - though I think there is a "message of the day" function server-side already which could be used for info like that.

i dont like the message of they day function of the servers.
it must be another function on the front side of nexuiz when u start the game.
all people who starts nexuiz can see news of the day or sth. like that.
its the only chance to show all people in nexuiz whats going on. informations are the key.
i told u, i dont know if its possible. we have to ask div or fruitie, maybe other devs.

But I think it won't be very effective in helping new players come and stay to play. My opinion might be biased because I personally don't have any interest in clans at all, but I imagine if you are a new player then your first concern won't be what clans are doing. I think clan memberships can be a great thing (for those who like that) for diving deeper into the game, but I believe the problem is getting new players to really KNOW the game in the first place.

In order to introduce new players to the new balance and physics we would need a decent tutorial (single player mode explaining stuff) and/or special servers where experienced players play and offer themselves as tutors (e.g. with a special tag attached to their nick or something).

thats why we need a newsticker^^
if good players wanna train newbies, we can inform em with these newsletter. maybe a live-ticker.
"Thursday - trainingday for newbies "
u know what i mean? its not only for the clansystem. and if they come to the training ,maybe they ll join our community for a longer time.
newbies are the most important thing, after that, our clans become bigger and bigger.

btw. i agree with u, we need tutorials and maybe a singleplayer.

@kojn: clansystem is not for the newbies. it could help em, if they find a new clan, but ive thought we need a clansystem to make this game more interesting.
if there is a ranking or another site which shows you ,whats going on with all the clans in nexuiz, it could be really interesting and a good feature.
people who joins xonotic dont wanna see extern sites.

One of the main reasons before for not being able to retain player's from other FPS game's who already had experience with clans etc, was that they disliked the game, the main issues were movement & gameplay, I also believe it's the same with new player's too, or a lot of them. Xonotic is such a big improvement on nexuiz already in my eyes in all area's but movement especially

there was a time when our nex community was growing, dont know what happened...but nexuiz changed a lot -.- "no continuity"
maybe ur right, but ive seen so many changes in physics, its just annoying.


ur last post. i dont know if we have the same idea of a clansystem. you speak about an axtern site. im talking about an integrated clansystem in the game. if the game becomes famous ,we can go to those sites - but for me its another step.

@pinkr: i would answer all posts, but my english is too bad.
but ive read all your posts in this thread.^^
btw. maybe this thread is not that bad. we ll see. but i cant talk that much ^^. i hate me and myself for my bad english -.- cant see it anymore

i hate me and myself for my bad english -.- cant see it anymore

Don't hate your english, it's ok. Can't say anything about yourself, though, but in general it's a bad idea to hate yourself

The problem is that a lot of information does only make sense in some sort of localized way. Clans are usually active in certain regions (due to ping/latency restrictions), so what is happening to clans in US might not be equally interesting to EU players and vice versa. That's why I think clan information should be provided by the servers, so that it reaches the players that it addresses.

If we can agree on an interregional tutorial system (as I proposed special "TUTOR" servers where players that are willing to show others have a special sort of tag in their nickname), then this can of course be presented in the game's main screen somewhere, provided it gets implemented.

I smell a comeback of the NexuizNinjaz as XonoticNinjaz \m/
For those who don't know: NexuizNinjaz were advanced players who helped newbies and had special training days where they show tricks, or videos and stuff like that.

I like that idea of a "News" box at the main page of the game.

there was a time when our nex community was growing, dont know what happened...but nexuiz changed a lot -.- "no continuity"
maybe ur right, but ive seen so many changes in physics, its just annoying.

I'll just address this point... Changes in physics are not "annoying", they are a consequence of dynamic development seeking to find acceptable physics. We don't change physics for the sake of change, we do it to fix things. If we could have settings that stay persistently good no matter what features we add or how opinions evolve, we would be using those, trust me.

We in Aussienexers have put on a number of tutorials for beginning players from 1v1 skills to moving and ctf tactics, all of these tutorials are carried out by our best players. A tutorial for beginners would certainly aid in this process but I still think that a large majority of the skill u pick up is from playing th game and no amount of tutorials can help with that. But i do like the clan system proposed above. I was also wondering if statistics are going to be introduced into the new xonotic game?

@halogene: i think im not a bad person^^. normally i wanna play thats all, but for this time i wanted to say sth before its too late.

yeah i forgot the regions. but i think its not the biggest problem. if informations are important we can split those informations. maybe a euro-newsletter, american-newsletter and australian newsletter on the main page.
people who are not interested can play...i dont know.
i speak about important informations. sth like australian tourney in a month, or training in europe for newbies.
i mean, im interested in other mode or whats going on in america or australia.

my only question is, if it works on the main page when u start nexuiz^^

@mirio: my girlfriend ( what are u doing here?) btw i liked nn.

@bougo: i trust u but ive seen those changes thousand times and in the end we had inactive players in all eu ctf clans. those changes didnt help nexuiz. maybe its good for xonotic who knows

@mdwguns: our beginners go to the minsta mode, because its much easier to learn ^^.
its just difficult to show newbies how the game works,when they are only interested in easymode minsta.

there was a time when our nex community was growing, dont know what happened...but nexuiz changed a lot -.- "no continuity"
maybe ur right, but ive seen so many changes in physics, its just annoying.

I'll just address this point... Changes in physics are not "annoying", they are a consequence of dynamic development seeking to find acceptable physics. We don't change physics for the sake of change, we do it to fix things. If we could have settings that stay persistently good no matter what features we add or how opinions evolve, we would be using those, trust me.

This ^^