Create an account


Thread Rating:
  • 4 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Direction of Xonotic

#26
Well div0 we will atleast try this idea anyway and see how it works in game, I think a faster firing rifle that does less damage but with headshot damage possible too will make for a better weapon then just trying to fix the nex all the time.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#27
Quote:Basically, what I mean is that we shouldn't have two sniper rifles (however, don't break maps that have nex as a sniper rifle if we will reorient it).

I'm staying out of the balance threads for the same reason that 4M stated and also because of the bike shed. But here I do want to point out that I don't think there is a thing like breaking a Xonotic map by changing the nexgun at the moment. Unless you want to be fully backwards compatible with all the nexuiz maps that is, which I don't think is the point of this fork. Because that would hugely limit the options for gameplay changes.
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
Reply

#28
Well, the nex is much more important for backwards compatibility than, say, electro or mg or mortar. You can change those a lot. Nex is a special case, and it should remain a sniper weapon (however, if rifle is not merged than it needs to be something that is not a sniper and is also not a machine gun).

Speaking of machine guns, hagar and hlac are quite similar in primary.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]
Reply

#29
Hi all, given a 12d 21h 24m 15s playtime on dcc, and about double that with my old nick painfedora6, i am an eu public ffa nexuiz "veteran" player. I will speak about the 4 game modes i am pretty familiar with, according to the 2.5.2 balance, and the nex-related-problems that i could see there. I do not feel i may represent anyone, but having collected such a huge statistical sample by playing _only_ this game since 2.0 i have enough experience about the main public servers which represent ( or should represent) the bulk of players. You also have to excuse me, my enter key is not functioning, i have spilt tea over it, so no paragraphs atm. 1) DM: No problems with the nex at all. never felt unbalanced. there are maps which due to the mess of ppl, electro and rl and hagar were much better. generally, in the majority of maps outside revdm1, balance was really nice. 2) KH: no problems again. same as dm. 3)1-1 Nex was never the problem. see in QL, its rl rl rl lg rail . in nexuiz its nex mortar rl. still feels ok to me. 4) CTF. Here is the problem... CTF servers are the "mirror" of the game to the newbies. Do you think its accidental that minsta/hook servers are much more full than the "normal ones?" nowadays?. No. open maps, with many nexes and SO much ammo around them cause a very very frustrating combination, way way 2 much for a newbie. I am actually feeling bad for the newbies in dcc nowadays, they are always facing the same old idiots like me, killing them potentially in a msec with a nex-mortar or nex-mg before they saw me. So , what's my suggestion for the nex? make it consume ammo times 3 , so that you maybe can only shoot 3 shots per pickup, or 2. everything else the same. kinda like the minstanex. this way, flickshots/spamnexshots can be avoided , and campers/snipers do have to go around and move/share the ammo. and nothing get's really changed for the other gametypes. I personally have enjoyed _all_ the changes in nexuiz since 2.0 . and i liked the tag. i like the xonotic balance direction atm, hate the nex switch delay though.
Reply

#30
(08-14-2010, 04:19 PM)booo Wrote: So , what's my suggestion for the nex? make it consume ammo times 3 , so that you maybe can only shoot 3 shots per pickup, or 2. everything else the same. kinda like the minstanex. this way, flickshots/spamnexshots can be avoided , and campers/snipers do have to go around and move/share the ammo. and nothing get's really changed for the other gametypes. I personally have enjoyed _all_ the changes in nexuiz since 2.0 . and i liked the tag. i like the xonotic balance direction atm, hate the nex switch delay though.
Flickshots are awesome, I would never want to get rid of those. Spamming is not an issue, the reload is long enough.

Once more, making the game be nicer to n00bs is not a good idea. We all started out as n00bs. We were all fragged 30 times in 10 minutes. But we learned, we learned to use the weapons in a better way and in a more efficient way. That gives the game depth. As I said, I think the best way to make nex less of a superweapon is to just increase the amount of skill it needs to use - headshots are not easy to get.

Glad to hear you don't like the switch delay, though.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]
Reply

#31
Xonotic is a free open-source, and we are interested in developing with the online freedoms, but too much freedom in designing the system may lead to something out of it. That is why we chose the following list of people to guide the project management and quality assurance experience.
Reply

#32
Troll?
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#33
Spambot more like, will report.
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
Reply

#34
Ulrich?
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#35
Why would you want the Nex to deal little damage?

If you want to make the Nex into a sniper rifle, I'd make the damage INCREASE with distance up to a reasonable limit. Unrealistic, but it would encourage more suitable weapons to be used in closer quarters. We don't care about realism anyways.

I don't know if this was already suggested; I apologize if it was.
My will be done.
Reply

#36
(08-14-2010, 04:51 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Once more, making the game be nicer to n00bs is not a good idea. We all started out as n00bs. We were all fragged 30 times in 10 minutes. But we learned, we learned to use the weapons in a better way and in a more efficient way. That gives the game depth.
When you are fragged 30 times in 10 minutes, a probably huge proportion of new players just give up.
I don't know much in ctf, but in 1v1, it's always the same limpid scenario: there are few (excellent) players. A noob comes up, is pulverized, and then roam elsewhere to see if the grass is greener. And ... excellent players keep to themselves.

Once again, pro's and noob's interests and expectations are not equivalent.
I don't always feel that this statement is clear for everyone.
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#37
The nex is a staple of the gameplay. It's that thrill of taking down the escaping FC with a trained shot. It's even more thrilling when you flying one direction across greatwall and he's taking the other jumpramp. As a FC, using it as defense to eliminate you foes is just as thrilling. It's an automatic balance to the highspeed racing used to cap a flag. Without it, CTF games would become simple short races.

The camping rifle? Well...I didn't agree with it's addition, it seemed...additional.

Because of the lower rate of fire, and quick ammo use, the nex is balanced. To balance it further, make it take up more ammo.

Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic. They can go back to COD6 with it's matchmaking and have the empty "pwn" feeling provided by that limp experience.

And yes, the Nex is a defense against these better players. Think about it this way:
The nex only requires one item to work properly...accuracy. That is all a n00b needs to begin enjoying it. Any other weapon requires some other tactic. Usually something rather complicated. The Nex remains simple...aim, fire.

What makes the Nex more powerful for pros is combo work. That's when you can take a recently spawned 150 health player and frag them quickly. Why is it getting removed again? I really don't think it's as unbalanced as it's being portrayed. It's one of the most fun weapons in the game!
Reply

#38
(08-18-2010, 08:46 AM)master[mind] Wrote: Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic.
You couldn't state any more clearly the elistist aspect I mentioned before.
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#39
Well people always are complaining about it's strength and it's used too much bla bla.

I think it's more sensible just to have a weapon that does a standard rate of damage at the same distances + headshot, anyone half decent enough with the crylink/RL (in fruitbalance) vs someone with a nex/sniper in close distances will be able to take someone down with those weapons very quickly..those weapons are much more suited for closer combat and are powerful if used where they have there biggest advantage, this is NOT nexuiz balance, please remember that.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#40
(08-18-2010, 08:55 AM)Rage_ATWM Wrote:
(08-18-2010, 08:46 AM)master[mind] Wrote: Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic.
You couldn't state any more clearly the elistist aspect I mentioned before.
There is a major difference between elitist and lazy. I thoroughly welcome any new player to come and play. I'd be glad to give any advice I could and help them learn. Most other well established players do likewise. All you have to do is ask. I do not like hearing people complain about their death rate. When you start playing a new game, IT IS HARD! Becoming better through practice is the reward. If you're looking for a 10 min. thrill, go play something else. Fun games require practice, skill, and determination. I feel like I've said this before...

Elitist communities don't give advice, laugh at new players, and are generally jerks. There are very few jerks here.
Reply

#41
But i'm not talking about player behaviours, i'm talking about gameplay.

The question is: do we want Xonotic to be an easy accessible game?
You answered no. Why not. I tend to be agree with you btw.
Now I understood (maybe wrongly) that Xonotic aims at being a more popular and accessible game than Nexuiz was.
And I point out that your position ("Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic.") will not help for sure.
But it's all about what Xonotic wants to become.
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#42
(08-18-2010, 09:17 AM)master[mind] Wrote:
(08-18-2010, 08:55 AM)Rage_ATWM Wrote:
(08-18-2010, 08:46 AM)master[mind] Wrote: Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic.
You couldn't state any more clearly the elistist aspect I mentioned before.
There is a major difference between elitist and lazy. I thoroughly welcome any new player to come and play. I'd be glad to give any advice I could and help them learn. Most other well established players do likewise. All you have to do is ask. I do not like hearing people complain about their death rate. When you start playing a new game, IT IS HARD! Becoming better through practice is the reward. If you're looking for a 10 min. thrill, go play something else. Fun games require practice, skill, and determination. I feel like I've said this before...

Elitist communities don't give advice, laugh at new players, and are generally jerks. There are very few jerks here.

This ^^ Smile

I remember when I first started out in the FPS world (UT99), I sucked, but I got better from watching better players and asking questions, I managed to get myself into a rather basic clan that was very fun..we got owned even by mid skilled player's but learnt a lot, I asked back then stuff like why was weaponstay off in TDM game's I eventually learnt and have never looked back since.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#43
(08-18-2010, 10:54 AM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: But i'm not talking about player behaviours, i'm talking about gameplay.

The question is: do we want Xonotic to be an easy accessible game?
You answered no. Why not. I tend to be agree with you btw.
Now I understood (maybe wrongly) that Xonotic aims at being a more popular and accessible game than Nexuiz was.
And I point out that your position ("Also, any player who becomes frustrated within the first 10 min. should not be playing Xonotic.") will not help for sure.
But it's all about what Xonotic wants to become.

If a player is utterly frustrated to no end after 1hr of gameplay, then the game truly is too hard. 10 min is never enough time to analyze a game. Any good game reviewer will play the game for 5hr's or so. If someone leaves after 10 min out of anger, it means they are going to become a troll. Xonotic isn't designed to provide instant perfection. It is designed to become more rewarding the longer you play. I promise, this game is NOT hard by any means. I started with this game(as in first FPS on PC ever). I stank, but became better. Then I moved to BF2142. Not only was that game frustrating, it was almost impossible. I love it now, but it was frustrating then. On a scale of 1-10 of difficulty(1 being least), Xonotic/Nexuiz = 4, COD6 = 1, BF2142 = 8, Arma II = 10, SH = 9. Xonotic requires more pro skill than COD6 but less insanity than BF2142. In my opinion, it's the perfect balance of difficulty and hand holding.
Reply

#44
So Xonotic should only be played by good game reviewers who play for an hour without regard for whether it's fun at all?
I'll drop the false dichotomy if you do.
Is it really too much for a casual player to expect the game to be at least a little bit fun without weeks of training?
There's no reason a game with depth and greater rewards for more skill has to be completely unrewarding for new players.
The desire for depth of gameplay is absolutely not a reason to disregard concerns over accessibility and new players. There is no relationship between the amount of skill needed to compete in the first place, and the amount there is for more advanced players to learn. One has nothing to do with the other. The game can be accessible without being shallow.
Reply

#45
(08-12-2010, 12:57 AM)ProjektGhost Wrote: Greetings. I have been a long time, loyal player of Nexuiz since version 2.4 and have been relatively quiet in my disdain for what has happened to this game since. I suppose I should first make it clear who I am, so as to give my words more credibility: ProjektGhost or mit_ghost, a player since April of 2008, Nexuiz version 2.4. I would like to think I am a well-recognized player, given the time I have put into Nexuiz. Also, let me just say that the proceeding is not some tirade of nonsensical ranting or some attempt at stirring up controversy in hopes of spawning a flame war; I am simply just asking for a little understanding on my behalf, as well as those whom I know share my point of view.

As a self-proclaimed "veteran player," I have seen many changes - in categories of both things I like and dislike. Obviously, this can only come natural with change. Understanding that the only constant is change, there is not much I can do about that. At the same time, my suppressed opinions are somewhat of an embarrassment, because as much as I want to speak my mind, I know that the developers are only doing what they think is in the best interest of the project - and at the same time, it seems as though they are themselves sabotaging it.

In your attempts of appealing to more players and further popularizing Nexuiz, it seems as though you alienate those who have been loyal to the game for many years prior. I can only speak for myself, but I hope that those individuals that share my view will also rise up and make themselves heard.

What I am asking for is not some hierarchy of power or special treatment in favor of those who claim seniority, but rather some logical reasoning and fairness to those with true passion for this game. What I would like to see more of is some system in which the developers and the community have a say in what direction the game is headed in. Thus far, it seems as though three main contributors have the last say in what happens to Xonotic. The movement, physics, weapons, etc. all seem to be committed without much consent from the general community.

What also comes to mind is what exactly you, as developers are more concerned about: Popularity or playability(?) This is where the gameplay has, in my mind, gone from diversity between the well-seasoned players and the completely new player. It definitely does favor the new player, and leaves the experienced player(s) like myself feeling ignored and alienated. Specifically, among the changes I am addressing were the additions of pogostick, guided rockets, and now melee weapon, delays weapon switches, a completely different movement / physics system, and a lightning gun. Nexuiz has gone from being unique to being another quake clone, which to me is just an attempt to leech of the limelight Quake Live casts. I do not want another QL clone; quite the opposite - I want the unique gameplay and weapon array that Nexuiz brought to the table.

Avoid seeing this as a "If ya can't beat'em, join'em" situation. See this as a problem of hype in where Xonotic needs to be more public and popular without having to completely re-vamp the entire game. Although trying to bring some modern sense to Xonotic, bear in mind that Nexuiz was always noted for its oldschool gameplay. Among the things that should be changed that Nexuiz was lacking were more practical applications such as engine improvements, becoming as light as it was before, more awareness to lesser-played gamemodes (such as onslaught), and possibly the addition of vehicles - and even then, make most major changes mutators, and not default.

I am well aware that a closer relationship between the development team and the community is a main focus in the Xonotic project, but so far, it seems like the same old story (like the whole situation that started the fork of Nexuiz) - The elite few control the fate of the many. At this rate, I fear I will have to part with this game and move on once it passes. As hard as that may be after all these years, it will probably not be the same game, anyway.

I agree completely.
Reply

#46
(08-18-2010, 12:46 PM)mastermind Wrote: If a player is utterly frustrated to no end after 1hr of gameplay, then the game truly is too hard. 10 min is never enough time to analyze a game.

I think I agree with you here, but to clarify: we don't want a noob to pro curve of 1 hour, and I hope that isn't what you meant. What I took it to mean is that we should give a new player a reasonable level of comfort within that hour, while still allowing a lot of room for growth as s/he continues playing.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
Reply

#47
Note that with the advent of casual gaming, more and more people expect the first gameplay experience to be nearly as easy as the ones following. The other people stick around and are the players you see on the servers.
I often see new players getting fragged all the time but still enjoying the challenge, and those often get better in days.
Reply

#48
The thing with this community is there is plenty of people to show new player's how to move and what the weapons do etc so I think the new player has a much easier time then with a lot of commercial games.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

Reply

#49
(08-30-2010, 09:46 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: I often see new players getting fragged all the time but still enjoying the challenge, and those often get better in days.
So, prolonging your statement, there was no lack of new players at Nexuiz, right?
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#50
I'm not saying there wasn't, I'm just thinking part of the new player loss is caused by the fact that they didn't spend money on it so they don't lose anything not playing it, and that they aren't putting the small effort needed in the first matches to make the game enjoyable Tongue
At least that's why I dropped Nex the first time I tried it. That and minsta rape. (btw I'm a bit worried by the consequences of the increasing popularity of minsta hook ctf because of this)
Reply



Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Direction of the Race Challenge! Cortez666 7 9,231 06-30-2011, 05:47 PM
Last Post: Cortez666

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Forum software by © MyBB original theme © iAndrew 2016, remixed by -z-