Wrong information about Xonotic

Oh I only now found out that this is a balance thread too - the topic was kinda irritating.

Wohoo welcome to another balance thread! :-P

I could imagine a bit more power for lasering off walls to gain horizontal speed would be good

The reason behind this is that the other weapons should provide a noticeably bigger speed boost than the laser (thus there's a reason for even using them in tricks), and for allowing more controlled acceleration with the laser even on smaller maps. (no matter how fast you can turn you aren't going to make it around that next corner if one laser boost gives you instant 800 units per sec)

...what's the balance discussion got to do with the topic? o.O

Theorem: Out of every thread on forums.xonotic.org, 50% eventually turn into balance threads

hey guys, its me.
srry for responding but this theme is really interesting for me.

some people are sad now, cause another guy is responding but i care about this project and im not 100 percent fine with changes in xonotic. but dont worry
i think this game is playable but its fun?
i dont know yet, but these physic and weapon changes are not my favourite thing, but in the end im looking for other changes, didnt find them so far to make this game much better than nexuiz or more enjoyable for a larger playerbase. (assault is a good thing - srry )
im still here and im here if u realease this game in a month or in a year (hopefully earlier), but some people have another opinion, accept it or not but its funny to see sentences like "people who care". everyone who wants to play a better game than nexuiz is interested in this project but not everyone has a voice or is active enough for making some noise.

some people came too late to change the physic or sth like that, but thats not the point.

Nexuiz and Xonotic are different games(not much, point of view) but they have the same background and people who played Nexuiz wants a similiar game, thats all.
you can improve Nexuiz in a lot of ways like you did with Xonotic but i dont know if its the key for a larger player base or more fun, we ll see ...i will wait for sure and if it not works you have the chance to make it better again and again.

but not everyone has a voice or is active enough for making some noise.

Exactly... Which is why we can't hear their opinion in any possible sane way, until it's too late.

Anyway as I said: try new balance now, see if it works. See if people like it after giving it a real chance, versus players not bots. If not, go back to older balance. It won't work the other way you know.

You can't improve Nexuiz/Xonotic if you keep all the crap. Why is the playerbase so small?? Because everything is awesome?
But if you keep it we will get the same playerbase as in Nexuiz, which basically means that the devs wasted their time.

but not everyone has a voice or is active enough for making some noise.

Exactly... Which is why we can't hear their opinion in any possible sane way, until it's too late.

Anyway as I said: try new balance now, see if it works. See if people like it after giving it a real chance, versus players not bots. If not, go back to older balance. It won't work the other way you know.

totally correct.

@mirio: u can improve a game in many ways. think about it, maybe u have some ideas by urself.

I dont red very well all the discussion ( so if i make an error i'm sorry ) but i think the most important problem inside this topic is about the weapons balance and the physic for all the player coming to Nexuiz like me.
Imho Xonotic is not Nexuiz and for me is sad ... i love Nexuiz 2.4.2 and his balancing instead Nexuiz 2.5.2 but i respect the work done by the devs from March to now to realising Xonotic.

I suggest an idea ( i dunno if is stupid ) : what about making two versions of Xonotic ... or a king of official mod ???

I explain my idea : putting an official mod inside Xonotic can be a good idea for all the people dont love the current weapon balancing and physic.
I can give you an example like the CPMA in Q3A, it was only a mod but it was loved by a lot of players.
So ... the dev can make the new Xonotic for all the new player and a putting a "mod" whit same model, same maps of Xonotic but with the physic coming to Nexuiz.

I dont think this is a stupid idea ... i dunno if my idea is intresting but i suggest
Like ever ... enjoy the game.

in xonotic will be as in nexuiz various physics cfgs and there will be a XPM mode at some point.

kuniu the frogg, as a declared lover of "left align" option, would love to try "outward align" (from FruitieX's signature).

but more on topic (or more off topic... hard to say) I'm one of those, who would want to give deafult config (i mean deafult at the moment, dunno whose this balance and physics set is) a try for a longer period of more intensive gaming (even like few months maybe). Of course it is different, but at the moment i can't say if it's better or worse than nexuiz. I just can't decide now. But generally i like it. It's not annoying, i was able to frag some guys from time to time. So it can't be that bad

in xonotic will be as in nexuiz various physics cfgs and there will be a XPM mode at some point.

Yeah i know ... but an official mod is different.
Btw you are talking about a XPM ... sounds good ... why not making a IMNM ( In memory of Nexuiz mode ) with same caracteristic of Nexuiz ???
Of course the acronym is a sort of joke but could be interesting.

To sum everything up:

- If an old Nexuiz player can't stand the new balance, they play on servers with the Nexuiz balance enabled on them. (and likely see a diminishing community around them, as has been discussed above, so they should prepare to slowly get used to the new balance...)

- Otherwise they play with the new balance.

- If an old Nexuiz player can't stand the new balance, they play on servers with the Nexuiz balance enabled on them. (and likely see a diminishing community around them, as has been discussed above, so they should prepare to slowly get used to the new balance...)

Or just play Nexuiz..

...what's the balance discussion got to do with the topic? o.O

Theorem: Out of every thread on forums.xonotic.org, 50% eventually turn into balance threads

"As a thread on forums.xonotic.org grows longer, the probability to turn into balance thread approaches 1"

To sum everything up:

- If an old Nexuiz player can't stand the new balance, they play on servers with the Nexuiz balance enabled on them. (and likely see a diminishing community around them, as has been discussed above, so they should prepare to slowly get used to the new balance...)

I suppose not ... the Nexuiz format was a good format tested for years and years giving a lot of results in numbers of players.
Using the Nexuiz balance like a pro mode could be a good stuff ... btw this is only my pov

The reason the Nexuiz player count is going down is because the development halted on that game leading many people to believe it's dead. They don't think any new improvements will be made for and they're stuck with some bad balance. Some people (like myself) also lost their nerve to play after the IllFonic incident as well and are waiting for Xonotic to get released. Whether or not you want to believe it, the majority of people most looking forward to this game are Nexuiz players and expect this game to have similar gameplay mechanics.

...what's the balance discussion got to do with the topic? o.O

Theorem: Out of every thread on forums.xonotic.org, 50% eventually turn into balance threads

"As a thread on forums.xonotic.org grows longer, the probability to turn into balance thread approaches 1"

I hope I can quote you on that. XD

---

Whether or not you want to believe it, the majority of people most looking forward to this game are Nexuiz players and expect this game to have similar gameplay mechanics.

But it does have *similar* gameplay mechanics. Not identical gameplay mechanics, but similar. In the end it was just a bunch of values and some code that was tweaked. It feels like a successor to Nexuiz, not like it is a completely new game. New things/changes are to be expected, literally everything else than the balance has also changed in more or less some way.

People will have to adjust anyway, just as with new releases of Nexuiz. If they are not willing to do this then they are free to stay with Nexuiz 2.5.2.

p.s. Nexuiz 2.6 was going to have some pretty extreme balance changes in it as well, wonder why...

...what's the balance discussion got to do with the topic? o.O

Theorem: Out of every thread on forums.xonotic.org, 50% eventually turn into balance threads

"As a thread on forums.xonotic.org grows longer, the probability to turn into balance thread approaches 1"

I hope I can quote you on that. XD

---

Whether or not you want to believe it, the majority of people most looking forward to this game are Nexuiz players and expect this game to have similar gameplay mechanics.

But it does have *similar* gameplay mechanics. Not identical gameplay mechanics, but similar. In the end it was just a bunch of values and some code that was tweaked. It feels like a successor to Nexuiz, not like it is a completely new game. New things/changes are to be expected, literally everything else than the balance has also changed in more or less some way.

People will have to adjust anyway, just as with new releases of Nexuiz. If they are not willing to do this then they are free to stay with Nexuiz 2.5.2.

p.s. Nexuiz 2.6 was going to have some pretty extreme balance changes in it as well, wonder why...

It DOES feel like an entirely new game and that kind of attitude may actually cause players to not migrate to Xonotic. Your gameplay mechanics actually have very little similarity to those from Nexuiz 2.4 and 2.5 whereas my settings grab a bit from both worlds combining some of the stuff you brought in combined with the feel of 2.4. In all honesty my settings feel closer to Nexuiz while your settings feel similar to CoD with some ridiculous bunny hopping added. Physics wise, the problem is the huge gap between bunny hop and run, you INSTANTLY accelerate when you hit space just once in addition to running speed feeling like it's slower than my real-life running speed (whether or not it is). Weapons wise, your settings will annoy Nexuiz players in some areas due to weapons being annoying to use due to fire rates (the shotgun is especially bad, and unbalanced due to the amount of pellets it outputs in one shot) and the weird Crylink (though the primary on this looks kick ass in game, could probably be implemented on a bomb type weapon in the future) and lightning gun function (setting combos off really is awkward with this thing). The Nex seems to have a pretty cool idea implemented on it, but it's not very intuitive (maybe if it became louder the higher it's charged...) and it makes it seem like a super weapon when originally it was a long range precision weapon.

your settings feel similar to CoD

Um, ok.

---

due to weapons being annoying to use due to fire rates (the shotgun is especially bad, and unbalanced due to the amount of pellets it outputs in one shot)

Yep, unbalanced in the sense that it's WEAKER THAN ALL THE OTHER WEAPONS (except the laser, it is not a weapon but a movement tool rather), see for yourself:

Code:

fruitiex@archive1:~/.xonotic/data/data$ ~/weapon-profiler-analyzer.pl damage.log
For server any map any:
  Crylink                         0.22363 |   .    +0.003 +0.064 +0.164 +0.351 +0.202 +0.087 +0.339 +0.800
  Nex                             0.18022 | -0.003   .    +0.133 -0.059 -0.054 +0.293 +0.295 +0.154 +0.867
  Rocket Launcher                 0.16004 | -0.064 -0.133   .    +0.107 +0.066 -0.008 +0.411 +0.354 +0.707
  Mortar                          0.11329 | -0.164 +0.059 -0.107   .    -0.258 +0.013 +0.144 +0.337 +1.000
  Uzi                             0.09637 | -0.351 +0.054 -0.066 +0.258   .    +0.076 +0.079 +0.120 +0.700
  Hagar                           0.06645 | -0.202 -0.293 +0.008 -0.013 -0.076   .    +0.036 +0.212 +1.000
  Electro                        -0.00755 | -0.087 -0.295 -0.411 -0.144 -0.079 -0.036   .    +0.395 +0.588
  Shotgun                        -0.16834 | -0.339 -0.154 -0.354 -0.337 -0.120 -0.212 -0.395   .    +0.393
  Laser                          -0.66411 | -0.800 -0.867 -0.707 -1.000 -0.700 -1.000 -0.588 -0.393   .  
  Relevance: 22.700001

Q.E.D.
(ps. these aren't really mature stats yet, they mostly measure the weapons from one Stormkeep duel. But the point stands (from previous, mature stats too) that the shotgun is still weaker than any other weapon.)
And it should stay that way too. It is a starting weapon, you are supposed to find another weapon to have higher chances of survival. It, however, can still be quite useful even if you have other weapons, such as to finish someone off, or just in general as a sure way (in close combat) to rack up some damage. Not to mention the almighty, epic shotgun slap.

Weird, I almost always fragged somebody in about two hits or less when I was at melee range due to how many pellets that thing spits out. If it's actually weaker and I'm still doing that, then there is definitely an issue with the health and armor system. btw, I don't really pay attention to numbers in my balance file as much as I pay attention to what happens in a match. In THEORY some of my weapons could be really devastating, but in a match, that's a different story. One of the more interesting things I've done was geared the nex to long range, but made it a good combo weapon for shorter distances. The camping rifle was geared more towards a scout rifle type weapon that mostly depends on skill and theoretically works best at medium-long range. Also, why not have the laser double up as a fallback weapon in addition to a movement tool? It's more accurate than the shotty, so if the player is skilled enough it could easily become a good starter weapon for longer ranged fights.

I've seen threads get hijacked before and this one takes the cake even so a lot of views have been expressed here and it has led to some interesting perspective from that of a dev, Xonotic players/fans, and Nexuiz players.

I could go into a long ass spiel about how the majority of players I talk to about Xonotic on the Nexuiz servers aren't expecting things to be so different and are surprised when I tell them. Or about how the few players who tested it, don't like it, and are expecting server owners to take care of them by running a Nexuiz like server when Xonotic is released.

But whatever Contribute ideas, test, give feedback, or die. Adjust or die slowly. Come along to this new game and new community or die. Xonotic_is_not_Nexuiz point taken but not liked, and not absorbed immediately. heh its been months since the announcement even with all the changes some Nexuiz players still hold out hope for the game to be something that they will have fun playing. I still hope I will have at least as much fun on Xonotic as I do now In Nexuiz but I'm not holding my breathe only hoping.

I don't really pay attention to numbers in my balance file as much as I pay attention to what happens in a match.

This is gathered from a real match though. Against real players. (kojn)
But yes, it's mostly feeling that matters. These stats just give a nice confirmation about stuff, e.g. if something's definitely unbalanced it's clearly visible from here.

---

I've done was geared the nex to long range, but made it a good combo weapon for shorter distances.

So it's good at any distance now? It's a super weapon as far as combos go? Think about it, which other weapon gives you THAT much damage in THAT little time, AND allows you to switch away immediately after the shot? Guess what that means for total DPS when you're using the Nex in a combo..... EXACTLY what I wanted to nerf for a long time (and the charge does that pretty well, without annoying people with the animtime that had to be there before.)

---

The camping rifle was geared more towards a scout rifle type weapon that mostly depends on skill and theoretically works best at medium-long range.

What's the point with having a Camping Rifle then, isn't that and the Nex mostly the same weapon? (if both work well at any distance)

---

Also, why not have the laser double up as a fallback weapon in addition to a movement tool? It's more accurate than the shotty, so if the player is skilled enough it could easily become a good starter weapon for longer ranged fights.

Because you'll quickly have the entire community (including me) whine about how much damage it does when moving around. It already does lots of push if you hit someone, good for pushing someone into void/lava if you're lucky (AND IT HAD BETTER STAYED THAT WAY, don't want to fly all over the place by other's laser shots all the time )

---

Xonotic_is_not_Nexuiz point taken but not liked, and not absorbed immediately.

But can be with a mod. Nexuiz playercounts weren't exactly increasing (not before the IllFonic deal either), change is required and here it comes. Like it or not. This is what would have happened to Nexuiz 2.6 as well, without the Illfonic thing.

I hope we'll get rid of the bad reputation Nexuiz weapons/physics had in just about any other gaming related community, maybe this game/community can expand. See this as an experiment perhaps, a much needed one. If it fails and we (you) still really hate the new balance, and we don't get a visible increase in playercounts, then switch back. If that happens then all I can say is that it was fun devving for the project, enjoy your Nexuiz 2.5.2 clone. I have better games to play than that

I don't really pay attention to numbers in my balance file as much as I pay attention to what happens in a match.

This is gathered from a real match though. Against real players. (kojn)
But yes, it's mostly feeling that matters. These stats just give a nice confirmation about stuff, e.g. if something's definitely unbalanced it's clearly visible from here.

---

I've done was geared the nex to long range, but made it a good combo weapon for shorter distances.

So it's good at any distance now? It's a super weapon as far as combos go? Think about it, which other weapon gives you THAT much damage in THAT little time, AND allows you to switch away immediately after the shot? Guess what that means for total DPS when you're using the Nex in a combo..... EXACTLY what I wanted to nerf for a long time (and the charge does that pretty well, without annoying people with the animtime that had to be there before.)

---

The camping rifle was geared more towards a scout rifle type weapon that mostly depends on skill and theoretically works best at medium-long range.

What's the point with having a Camping Rifle then, isn't that and the Nex mostly the same weapon? (if both work well at any distance)

The way I set up the nex is that YOU HAVE TO COMBO at distances shorter than what it is intended to be used at, making it a hard to abuse weapon, but giving you a slight edge if you can pull it off. It actually takes a bit of effort to kill somebody with it when using my health/armor system. The idea is you can pick them off when your out of their range. The camping rifle is closer to a carbine/assault rifle, but isn't the extreme range weapon that the nex is. The only use it has at close range is the panic fire secondary due to it being extremely hard to hit somebody who isn't at least some distance away. Also one more thing about the nex, the animtime was increased SUBTLY along with the fire rate, it's virtually unnoticeable, but it's enough to put enough delay in to keep it from being a super combo weapon. The only issue I see with it right now is that it might chew up too much ammo. Also a comment about the weapon statistics, if you use my settings they may be harder to look at because of how I've balanced the guns. Depending on the map, people will try to go for different guns. The crylink for example is probably the deadliest weapon on Stormkeep along with the electro, while the machine gun is probably the deadliest on Glow Plant, and the Rifle on Siege, the HLAC and hagar probably dominate G-23.

The way I set up the nex is that YOU HAVE TO COMBO at distances shorter than what it is intended to be used at

Aha, ok.

After applying tZork's idea to the charging (using a charge pool), the Nex works like this in our balances (in mine anyway, but I'd figure he added that to his as well): Either you decide not to combo, which gives you a higher damage from the Nex (you even have time to "over"charge it (>50%) between the 1sec refire time if you don't keep switching weapons), or you combo, which means depending on just how fast you're switching weapons you might not even get the 50% charge.

I think this is so far the best solution I've seen to balancing it out in both situations.

That charge thing, as neat as it is, wasn't around when I started doing the balance and probably won't end up in mine due to it not being intuitive enough. Outside of a bar that I probably wouldn't understand if I was new, I have no real way of being able to tell that it's charging. Maybe if shots became louder the higher it's charged, I'd go through the effort of getting in my balance.

"The crylink for example is probably the deadliest weapon on Stormkeep along with the electro"

It is not. The only reason it topped the stats for that game was becaue I was purposely using it at time's when I didn't need too to get better at using it. In general it ends up being about halfway down the list of the weapon stats. The important thing is that the laser and shotgun are at the bottom of the list.

From the stats i've seen before and from actually playing with the current settings, the rocket launcher is the best weapon on the map because it's the most versatile for both defending and attacking (and as a result tends to end up at the top of the stats), but it's only as good as the other weapon's depending on the situation. I tried to use the electro one time for about 80% of a game on stormkeep and ended up getting owned by frutiex for doing so, this is not a lie I actually ended up getting quite frustrated.

As FrutieX says, these stats (not just the ones he posted but the other's I have seen) have been collected from real game's in proper situations which is what matters. Theory is great, in theory the electro can do 100dps, but in reality the actual damage it's likely to do is going to be no where near that per second, and if there is one thing the current settings have, it is a lot of testing.

I was referring to my balance settings and used the crylink as an example of how different weapons may be superior to others for certain maps under my configuration.