balanceFruit.cfg

I have to admit at this point that I, too, liked the Nexuiz movement, and parts of the weapon settings (laser, mortar, electro) more than what Xonotic has now. So Lee_Stricklin isn't ALL alone out there.

BUT: I see where Xonotic is heading and many of the changes I like, too. Plus, I have the feeling that with whatever pickup weapon I get I am well equipped, which I didn't have in Nexuiz. I start to get used to the Xonotic movement, too, and already feel quite comfortable with it. After having played some intense matches lately thanks to the growing player count, I can say I am pretty happy about most of the changes made to movement and weapons.

Only thing I grieve about is pushing people around with laser (which just isn't remotely comparable to Nexuiz). I had tremendous fun on any space map but also on enclosed maps irritating players by changing their movement path. Heck, I even played some maps ALWAYS laser only, and was doing quite well even with others using all weapons.

@Lee_Stricklin: I understand your urge to promote the balance you created, but Xonotic already has a very well working physics and weapon balance. In my humble opinion it would be more effective to promote specific changes to the current balance than to promote an entirely different balance set. It's easier to tweak something existant than to check out something new and, by that, actually start over with the whole balancing (evaluation by public testing/playing). By constantly saying "the current balance is crap check out my one" you're not going to be considered delivering constructive feedback, even though you went through all that trouble to provide an alternative balance.

All this is obviously my personal opinion and how I perceive the situation.

The physics are EXTREMELY close actually, they're essentially a sped up fruitphys file with a slightly lower acceleration. His run speed is about 18MPH, mine is 25 (this keeps you from being immobilized if your not bunnyhopping, holding down jump every inch of G-23 is not fun) and the acceleration is set up to keep the transition from run to bunny hop from being over the top. The balance on the other hand is drastically different. It was actually based off of the 2.4.2 balance and later evolved to include caps and other features mostly found in Fruitiex's settings. The important thing for me was to preserve what made Nexuiz 2.4 so fun: It was fast, intense, chaotic, and balanced with weapons that felt right and weren't irritating to use. I initially opposed caps, but then realized that yeah stacking did ridiculous at times and when done right caps can actually keep the game moving. The main thing I avoided when implementing caps was setting it up in a way that would actually ENCOURAGE camping as opposed to preventing it. How much incentive do I have to try to grab health if very few pickups can actually put me over 100? Not much and a few players found that out when I picked a corner and started nabbing headshots with the rifle, the game simply devolved into hold a good spot and then grab health/armor when I need it. One thing that annoyed me was the redundancy that existed between the HLAC and Crylink (hell maybe even the machine gun). I balanced the HLAC as a general purpose spam weapon/hell raiser good for causing panic and doing damage in the right situations and balanced the Crylink to mostly act like it did in 2.4/2.5 keeping it the shreddar (if you've played Turok 2 you know what I'm talking about) type weapon that it was. I can go into more detail as to how I ended up with what I did in the balance, but I already have a wall of text. The bottom line is I tried to set the game up to be fluid, fast moving, with a good feel (let's face it, using a lightning beam to set off a combo sucks), and weapons that are familiar and easy to pick up while serving their own purpose. I also brought in some of what Fruitiex introduced such as ammo caps (limits are straight copy/pasted, though consumption rates were changed), health caps (spawn with 200, rot to 100, can stack to 300, nothing is going to sit still and spawn kills don't come easy either), armor caps, and various new weapon functions that I thought would compliment what I was aiming for. One other thing I made sure of was NOT TO BREAK MAPS! I don't know about balanceFruit, but CTF-Go and various other huge maps still play pretty much how they were intended with my configuration. I had a problem getting around Mircea Kitsune's Deck 16 port using Fruitiex's setup, but not so much with mine. My latest settings are currently in the preview, seriously give them a try for once and see how they play. You'll find the weapons are pretty familiar, the nex isn't over powered (though you'll hate it for short-medium ranges since I geared it to long range), and nothing is going to really sit still unless a situation calls for it. Damn that was a long post.

A slightly increased walking speed sounds absolutely reasonable to me, given that I agree non-bunnyhop-movement feels a bit sluggish. As for the electro combo I agree as well, I find it hard to tell whether I actually have made the combo during combat and also feel it's rather hard to set it off (since you need to stay close to them balls which is, given the movement speed, not always an easy task).

I like the current crylink very much, requires a lot of skill to use effectively but might even need some nerfing if people find out how to use it best ;oP time will tell.

I am indifferent about the HLAC, except that I think it's overkill for assault. But there we should think about making objectives more resistant to HLAC instead of nerfing the weapon.

About stacking caps I am indifferent, too.

The only thing that irks me: At low horizontal speeds i would really like to have more sideways air control. So when dropping onto jumppads you don't have to go all curvy. The physics is great at higher horizontal speeds..

The only thing I've heard some complain about recently is that the current physics are too FAST not the opposite. And you're only making them faster??

---

spawn with 200

Do you play a lot of competitive games? It doesn't seem like you do, because this above idea completely breaks the concept of map control. With that much health right from the start it'll be so much easier for a player to just run straight after the opponent they got fragged by, rack some (lots of) damage before said opponent gets a chance to stack up again. This'll turn the match into an uninteresting turn-based fragfest, lacking the most important element in duels/tdm in Quake based games: map control.

---

CTF-Go

What is that?

---

Damn that was a long post.

Heard about paragraphing? :p

---

The only thing that irks me: At low horizontal speeds i would really like to have more sideways air control. So when dropping onto jumppads you don't have to go all curvy. The physics is great at higher horizontal speeds..

Yup, I actually suggested something like this to be implemented... That at low speeds, strafe keys would work mostly like in Nexuiz physics, and when you go faster (just over the walking speeds) it'll gradually fade towards working like it does now. Guess it's too late now to change this, though.

Yes you can gain insanely fast speeds with very little effort. I wouldn't mind to have the physics require more movement skills to achieve that high speeds, but I'm okay with how quick you become fast as well. But whenever fighting in enclosed quarters I feel it's hard to dodge enemy fire. That's why I would say slightly increasing the walking speed would be reasonable. But to me it's not at top priority as I think gameplay is pretty good as it is.

An increased laser push force for other players than yourself would be more important to me. Currently there's little incentive to use the laser against any opponent, and the Nexuiz laser was my favorite weapon (and that not because of it's damage) :o/

But whenever fighting in enclosed quarters I feel it's hard to dodge enemy fire. That's why I would say slightly increasing the walking speed would be reasonable.

Problem is that this will also make it much easier for your opponents to dodge your projectiles, and hitscan weapons will become much harder to use when players run around very fast, yet unpredictably.

An increased laser push force for other players than yourself would be more important to me. Currently there's little incentive to use the laser against any opponent, and the Nexuiz laser was my favorite weapon (and that not because of it's damage) :o/

I don't have anything against having the laser behaving like before against other players, but I wonder what everybody else thinks about that...

Or perhaps we should have a new weapon that's used for pushing people around, despite what kojn thinks? :-) I think that could be fun.

An increased laser push force for other players than yourself would be more important to me. Currently there's little incentive to use the laser against any opponent, and the Nexuiz laser was my favorite weapon (and that not because of it's damage) :o/

I don't have anything against having the laser behaving like before against other players, but I wonder what everybody else thinks about that...

They all think it's a wonderful idea. Don't even bother to ask them. It's agreed, then? Cool. Thanks!

I quite enjoy not getting throw around maps now, nothing wrong in testing laser to give more force when hitting an opponent I guess, but it's not a major game/balance problem or something seems just purely just for a fun element and my only objection is because it is mainly used for movement and laserjumping. I don't see the problem with the current one but you can atleast try test it as long as you can do it without changing the current force/push the laser gives to you when used and see if it causes any problems.

No more weapon's, it's been stated many a time that Xonotic probably already has far too many then needed

Also, if the acceleration for ground become's any more it will become pretty hard to hit with splash weapon's as fruitiex stated, it already requires some skill to hit with the rocket launcher and it's already quite difficult enough.

Lee you should watch me duel sometime's, I do not run around the place at 500mph, half the time in nexuiz I just used to walk around the map's and i'm not even joking!

I quite enjoy not getting throw around maps now

I KNEW it! But thx for being open at least for testing this. It's a game, things being purely for the purpose of fun should not be a reason not to implement them. ;o)

I don't know, but the Nexuiz 2.4 balance was probably the worst balance that I ever played, also the Crylink - a nightmare.
The current balance is pretty nice already (yes CR discussions but hey..), I like it (like Halogene pointed out) that you have a chance to frag someone with every weapon (at least it feels like that ). In Nexuiz it was basically RL, Nex, Mortar that made you win.

(this keeps you from being immobilized if your not bunnyhopping, holding down jump every inch of G-23 is not fun)

Maybe you just need to practise it? Its a new, different game and everyone has to learn it at first.

CTF-Go

The map "Go" is a big, open space map, kind of poor design. Quite good on publics but wouldn't work well in competitive games I guess.
I believe that no one wanted to port Nexuiz maps, because 'we' want quality official maps in Xonotic. I think you need to port them properly, if you have to port them. Don't blame the physics for that if you port them 1to1 in size etc. . Just check Runningman (one of the best CTF maps in Nexuiz); it looks great and got some nice good things now. I can do any jumps like in Nexuiz or even better jumps now. The current official maps are good and look good also.


About laser: I would love to have the push force on opponents back, because its really fun. At least to test it a bit.

No more weapon's, it's been stated many a time that Xonotic probably already has far too many then needed

Yeah, 100% agree. Some people said that they think Xonotic got too much weapons already now. Maybe 1 or 2 should be really removed in 1.0 or so. Potential candidates in my eyes: Port-O-Launch + Fireball (and the Tuba)

[Btw, recording a Key Hunt match at the moment and the keys look really ugly if you are close to them! ]

His run speed is about 18MPH, mine is 25 (this keeps you from being immobilized if your not bunnyhopping, holding down jump every inch of G-23 is not fun) and the acceleration is set up to keep the transition from run to bunny hop from being over the top.

There has to be a big shift in game play between hopping and running or else hopping is just a better form of running, which makes it bullshit. Then it only makes sense giving running the hop speed and acceleration and then having only straight jumping (no bunny hopping).

There must be a strong difference, which is basically to make hopping fast and running maneuverable. Once one's territory is crossed by the other it becomes pointless.

The only thing I've heard some complain about recently is that the current physics are too FAST not the opposite. And you're only making them faster??

---

The run speed is the same as it was in 2.5 and it's now possible to achieve mostly the same speeds that were possible in 2.4 if you bunny hop or weapon boost.

spawn with 200

Do you play a lot of competitive games? It doesn't seem like you do, because this above idea completely breaks the concept of map control. With that much health right from the start it'll be so much easier for a player to just run straight after the opponent they got fragged by, rack some (lots of) damage before said opponent gets a chance to stack up again. This'll turn the match into an uninteresting turn-based fragfest, lacking the most important element in duels/tdm in Quake based games: map control.

---

It rots down to 100 though and weapons that are the most effective on a given map (spam weapons especially) have a tendency to drain ammo fast. If you don't move around the map, your gonna get killed. This does not turn the game into a turn-based fragfest like what your saying. The 200 health at respawn just keeps everything moving since your going to want to stop it from rotting as soon as possible VS your set up that encourages me to camp in maps.

CTF-Go

What is that?

---

Just an example of a popular map that will be broken by your movement/weapons settings.

[quote='Lee_Stricklin' pid='18841' dateline='1293712659']
His run speed is about 18MPH, mine is 25 (this keeps you from being immobilized if your not bunnyhopping, holding down jump every inch of G-23 is not fun) and the acceleration is set up to keep the transition from run to bunny hop from being over the top.

There has to be a big shift in game play between hopping and running or else hopping is just a better form of running, which makes it bullshit. Then it only makes sense giving running the hop speed and acceleration and then having only straight jumping (no bunny hopping).

There must be a strong difference, which is basically to make hopping fast and running maneuverable. Once one's territory is crossed by the other it becomes pointless.

There IS a big shift in gameplay when you bunny hop, I just made it closer to what it was in 2.4 and 2.5 so it isn't over the top like it is in fruitphys. Bunnyhopping allows you to easily do 70MPH around a map whereas running you'll only do 25. The laser can also be used to give you a quick boost and you can now control what kind of hop your going to pull depending on what angle you fire it.



Seriously try ACTUALLY PLAYING with my settings for about an hour or two before posting stuff about it. I actually played with balancefruit as in put quite a few hours into it. The latest version of my configs are already in the preview release, so anybody that downloaded that or updated their git versions of the game already has them.

No more weapon's, it's been stated many a time that Xonotic probably already has far too many then needed

Right, so the crappiest ones could be exchanged for something like this...

Force from lasering others back to Nex 2.5 settings is totally fine by me, as long as laserjumping remains unaffected (which it would) because it's perfect now.

---

I don't know, but the Nexuiz 2.4 balance was probably the worst balance that I ever played

The current balance is pretty nice already (yes CR discussions but hey..)

And the CR was already nerfed to 60 dmg bodyshot (unchanged), 120 dmg headshot (used to be 160). 42/84 on secondary. It can be tested on the [NL] Xonotic Balance Testing server. (yay a reason to call it balance testing again! Lazy-ass admin does not have to change the name)

---

About laser: I would love to have the push force on opponents back, because its really fun. At least to test it a bit.

Ok, I'll have to code that some time... :p

---

and running maneuverable

Yes, and also easily unpredictable, in opposite to bunnyhopping where you will be pretty predictable no matter what. (movements or changes in movement are rather linear)

Okay, force is now applied on teammates just as before. No team damage at all though by default.

Laser force on other players is now 375, on yourself it's unaffected. Test this on [NL] Xonotic Balance Testing!

Yeah, 100% agree. Some people said that they think Xonotic got too much weapons already now. Maybe 1 or 2 should be really removed in 1.0 or so. Potential candidates in my eyes: Port-O-Launch + Fireball (and the Tuba)

No! Not the tuba!

Some thing I discovered today on your server FruitieX, is that you can basically charge the Nex without interruption. My suggestion is (and somehow I assumed it already was that way, but it isn't):

1) if you overcharge the Nex (the inner red circle is gone), it starts to hurt you (just like the fusion cannon in Descent). The inner reddish circle should also diminsh quicker.

2) while charging, the Nex consumes ammo.

Having a chargeable nex the way it is now you basically always run around with the charge button pressed. Is that the way it is intended? *scratch scratch wonder*

Having a chargeable nex the way it is now you basically always run around with the charge button pressed. Is that the way it is intended? *scratch scratch wonder*

If you only run around with it pressed you'll deplete the inner ring, it should at the moment be good for about 4 shots in a sequence. It basically stops you from ONLY using the Nex. Oh not to mention: it stops your health regen! Whenever your inner circle is not full and you hold your Nex, health regen is postponed by iirc 3 seconds. This was done to give the Nex user an additional disadvantage, instead of lowering the damage of a shot further.

Perhaps the rate of depleting the inner circle should be adjusted, but I'd still like it to stay "out of the way" for "normal use".

What does the inner ring depletion mean? Does this reduce the damage dealt by the nex again? Or what is it for? I missed the description, obviously. I also don't understand what you mean with "it should atm be good for about 4 shots in a sequence", please elaborate (I wanna understand this).

In the matches I played, the nex still proved to be a very powerful weapon. Initially I tried to watch that I keep the nex constantly charged at about maximum while not touching the inner circle. I found that a very challenging side-aspect of the nex. Having the nex deal you damage when you "overcharge" sounds to me to be a reasonable way to prevent stacked-up players from constantly charging it. Also the ammo consumption during charging would prevent this. That way you'd really have to think about when you charge and when you don't.

If this makes the nex too weak, then we could think about slightly increasing its full charged damage.

These are only ideas that I actually thought were implemented that way... and that I found really smart. Apart from that it would change what we have now, what do you think basically about those ideas?

What does the inner ring depletion mean? Does this reduce the damage dealt by the nex again? Or what is it for? I missed the description, obviously. I also don't understand what you mean with "it should atm be good for about 4 shots in a sequence", please elaborate (I wanna understand this).

It means that you won't be able to charge up your Nex for a while. If we for instance compare the Nex to a camera, then the inner ring would be the batteries, and the outer ring the capacitors of the flash etc. The batteries (inner ring) are depleted when charging up the capacitors (outer ring). If the batteries are empty, we won't be able to charge up the flash either.

When you don't charge for a while the battery of the Nex will start regenerating, just like health will start regenerating after a while of not taking any damage.

Hope that explains it

---

Having the nex deal you damage when you "overcharge" sounds to me to be a reasonable way to prevent stacked-up players from constantly charging it.

This would probably be a viable alternative to what we have, but it still wouldn't keep players from keeping the Nex very close to being "overcharged" all the time, though. I do like the idea however, it would be pretty cool if you just before a shot start overcharging a lot, lose some health but also get an even more powerful shot.

---

Also the ammo consumption during charging would prevent this. That way you'd really have to think about when you charge and when you don't.

I guess in the end, ammo consumption would be a more successful way of making sure people don't run around with 100% charge all the time. Should just dump the whole "battery idea", less stuff around the crosshair like this too

I guess in the end, ammo consumption would be a more successful way of making sure people don't run around with 100% charge all the time. Should just dump the whole "battery idea", less stuff around the crosshair like this too

You might want to consider though, the short term unpopular, but long term game improving move of simply dumping the overall monstrosity that is the Nex.

Because there's been like half a dozen major redesigns for this one weapon now, and still counting, with each trying to make it a balanced and reasonably specialized weapon. But each attempt seems to fail because the basic concept is fundamentally simplistic and the folks who have grown to like it make many demands about how it must remain the same in major areas (like damage).

And then there are, many have said, too many too similar weapons. The Nex competes with the Rifle for it's intended primary role as a sniper weapon. Why do you need both?

I guess in the end, ammo consumption would be a more successful way of making sure people don't run around with 100% charge all the time. Should just dump the whole "battery idea", less stuff around the crosshair like this too

You might want to consider though, the short term unpopular, but long term game improving move of simply dumping the overall monstrosity that is the Nex.

Because there's been like half a dozen major redesigns for this one weapon now, and still counting, with each trying to make it a balanced and reasonably specialized weapon. But each attempt seems to fail because the basic concept is fundamentally simplistic and the folks who have grown to like it make many demands about how it must remain the same in major areas (like damage).

And then there are, many have said, too many too similar weapons. The Nex competes with the Rifle for it's intended primary role as a sniper weapon. Why do you need both?

Stop making it a general purpose weapon and gear it to long range. THAT will fix the nex. My nex feels a bit weak at the moment (due to last minute changes), but with a simple tweak or two will be just right for maps like Deck 16, Go, Minideck, and anything that's wide open. It should pretty much be suicide to use the nex at closer ranges unless you plan to combo with it. Which requires some skill.

OK screwed around with the git again, still not feeling it but you've made some progress. In particular the laser beats the hell out of the one in my file. I can see the nex being a nightmare though given that I can charge a shot with it, follow up with a combo and pretty much be guaranteed a kill (provided I didn't already get one with the initial combo) with almost other gunshot after that. The lightning gun function is still a bad idea and while the Crylink has an interesting primary, it's still not easy enough to pick up and use (though it has improved, your new twist on the primary may work after all). The secondary needs to be changed though, because it makes the weapon too much like the HLAC. Maybe assign your current primary to secondary and make primary closer to what it was in Nexuiz? The gap between bunny hop and run is still ridiculous as well, you should be able to do both, not hold jump the entire match and then use the laser to jump. Also not a fan of the health/armor system (I think I nailed it in my file, you should probably take a look at that for ideas), and while the running speed is better, it could still be a little faster (25MPH was what was in Nexuiz 2.5). The shotgun is still questionable as well, too many pellets popped out at once can cause problems because it will weaken the weapon at long range, and make it absolutely lethal at close range. The nex will definitely be a problem when we get some Tribes-style action going, you should gear it to long range-extreme range while making the rifle a scout weapon most effective for long range, but useful at medium range (borderline useless at extreme range though). Also I still don't understand what the secondary on the rifle does as it seemed to just pop one quieter shot of when I used it last as opposed to a panic fire that could do some damage before you switch weapons after being rushed. One other thing: I miss my weapon combos. Both file sets still need work, but I'm pretty sure one of us will have something solid by the time beta rolls around.

Any news?

Just to note lee, the weapon change time has not been changed (except for sniper), so this is just a myth about not being able to do weapon combo's.

As for the nex I don't see any problem with it, the using cells whilst charging for a more powerful shot make's sense though I really think that's the only change needed everything else is overkill, keep it SIMPLE.