Balance changes in progress for "0.2"

Edit: I love how someone voted this thread one star. $20 says it was FruitieX

Whut, you can vote for threads? :-P

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How does it make sense to have a RL that shoots fast rockets that you can steer? LOL that's like combining 2 advantages.

+1, RL was already overpowered

We've been looking for a unique function for the hagar for a loooong time, so far there have been very few actual attempts at something unique/useful.

The unique functionality I propose is one of the following. The hanger rockets become 'smart' bombs.
Either 1: Each rocket when fired become homing missiles to the nearest target in a projected radius. They would have a terrible turning circle, but would become quite useful in certain situations.

Or 2: Maybe even secondary fire. Smart rockets are fired when secondary is held down. They maintain a distance of about 2 meters from the player making a small wall. When secondary is released, they project themselves forward in a swarm. I think that would be quite a satisfying weapon.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3771...927e28.jpg

Those are my ideas

Besides, personally I love the physics/speed. imo they're much better than Nexuiz's physics once you get used to them... but i've always been in favor of faster gameplay.

I agree. LOVE the new movement. Its really pleasurable to move around. Just shouldn't let the player get to fast without the laser. 7m/s for example is much more suited imo. Reaching 20m/s from bunny hopping alone in 10 seconds is approaching ridiculous. While yes it feels very nice, its does nothing positive to the balance of the game :S

Side note: tZork, what should we call the balance now?
balancetZorkual?
balancetSamuzork?
balancetZamual?
balancetZormual?
balancetSamuZorkal?

Food for thought.

balanceXonotic. If you're gonna make it default anyway

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This is why I support a stronger* laser, as it does not make the players FASTER, it just makes them jump higher.

Don't touch the laser. A stronger weapon that deals more damage should always be more useful in trickjumping than the weak laser. Currently it's like this, but if you make the laser any stronger it won't be like this anymore.

Do not make the forces of the other weapons stronger either, then CTF will be totally broken again.

Ps. The physics are fine. If you are going to nerf bunnyhopping you might just want to remove it altogether and make weapon tricks a necessity

note: i did 1 star (i think....)
because its important this chat

you nerds need to take this stuff very serious , because our gaming future depends on it.
(mine at least)
argue points , make suggestions , but dont put down or offend anyone please

(btw that chooksta guy is crazy)

:^

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Mate..... That was Nexuiz 2.5.2........

Pay attention to the speed and the guiderate mostly... (And the radius = the size of the explosion)

balanc25.cfg:
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_radius 150
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_speed 850
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_guiderate 90 // max degrees per second

balanceFruitieX.cfg:
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_radius 130
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_speed 1400
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_guiderate 42 // max degrees per second

balanceSamual.cfg:
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_radius 100
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_speed 1600
set g_balance_rocketlauncher_guiderate 140 // max degrees per second

(Note, the speed in FruitieX/Samual increases TO that speed from a start of 800 - This is so that the rockets aren't too fast in small maps)

The faster you make the rocket, the MORE control it needs.. NOT LESS... Basically: This is affectively doubled up, to make it so that you can barely turn the rocket at all. BTW: Arguing that guiding was good in Nexuiz is stupid, as rocket guiding in Nexuiz was overpowered++. The radius was WAY too high if you want guiding, it made it way too easy to hit things with high damage. My rocketlauncher purposely has a very high guide rate (Note: It's scaled up by the speed -- the higher the speed you add, the slower the guiderate effectively is), but the radius is 2/3rd that of the Nexuiz rocket and it moves almost twice as fast. It also rewards direct hits a lot more than the other balances.

Look: I'm just saying that the rockets the way they are right now DO NOT WORK FOR GUIDING on 99.9% of situations/maps. Either make guiding better (and the rockets weaker/smaller), or remove guiding altogether and just keep the detonation.

We're arguing for the same thing: We both want useful/fun rockets with guiding. So..... why are you arguing?

@ FruitieX: I disagree, I think the laser is *just* adequate right now.. It is JUST tolerable for me. I wish to add at least 50 more force when it comes to upward velocity, but this is mostly trivial. I know in the least i'm going to make my laser do more damage though... Also: I intend on lowering forces more probably, but they most likely won't be as low as yours as imo that's not as fun. Just like: CRYLINK SHOULD HAVE NEGATIVE FORCE DUUUUUUUUUUUDE :'( --- Why'd you remove that in the first place?

And of course the physics are fine, I don't know why people dislike them (other than lack of experience with them)

@ Cuinnton: There's two problems with that though.... #1: It gets rid of the only good function the hagar already has (its secondary) -- And #2: I think homming rockets make a lot more sense on the seeker, since that's how the gun already works... It seems rather redundant with the seeker is what i'm saying. Although I must say, I like the idea of sending a swarm after someone (from secondary)... even though it would be hard to balance.

So Samual and TZork are handling the balance now? I'm ok with this, Samual's balance impressed the hell out of me when I played it on his server and it has the least amount of redundancy of any of the configs I've screwed with. As for input on what I thought about the default balance, I think I recently gave some input on the community survey, if any of the developers get a chance you may want to check that out. Also one more thing, I still have one more (actually two, one for the preview release, the other for the git) balance file I need to upload. You may want to look through that for ideas or see if you like the general play style, it should be noted I took a step back (to 2.4.2) and balanced forward my configs when I saw the mess that was 2.6 balance.

samual im glad u are pushing for fun rockets

my main complaint is rocket jumping from ground , its weird , i used to be able to controll roughly the angle of take off , but now it seems to be up or roughly flat forwards
(example: dance map , after i get the flag and goto jump i seem to head over to the corridor , rather than up and over)

also (not really related) is mir air flying , i press m1 and m2 at same time (when rl delay is at 0 of course) , and the rl fire/detonate seems to have a weird firing rate , ill goto press both and some times it works when i want it to , sometimes its like its delayed for roughly .5-1 seconds , some times longer....

note my equipment works fine , old game is normal.

im not that great at explaining it , sorry , maybe ill try a demo and show ya mate.

but yer rocket guiding is needed , same curve as old game please.




:^

About the physics: Having these simplified physics takes out a level of deepness of the game. It's nice that you can get up to speed without learning how to strafe. But in a sense it makes the game more shallow because there's one less thing you can use to your advantage to get an edge over an opponent.

E.g. Say you play against a good aimer, but he doesn't know how to strafe. You might be able to win against him by making use of your edge in movement to get to items faster, run away from him, attack him from surprising angles.

Personally i also don't like the cap on 800qu/s for normal bunnyhop +forward movement..

IMHO the optimum would be combination of the two: Make bunnyhop +forward accelerate, but make strafing accelerate quicker.. So people willing to learn it still can get an edge while leaving noob +forward hoppers not too far behind...

I also mentioned this in the survey: I think the strafing has been taken out of the game for the wrong reasons. One shouldn't make bot-users a primary reason for decisions about the gameplay. Why should everyone suffer from worse gameplay, just so that some dumbasses cannot abuse it anymore. I happily live with some cheaters when it's overall the better game for the honest players..

In my UT99 days we even made it a challenge to win against aimbotters. If everyone on the server was in on it it was easy to time attacks in such a way that it simply was impossible for the botter to take everyone out without being taken out himself.. There's nothing more funny than an aimbotter ragequitting because he cannot pwn

Kind of agree on the strafing, but I think this would be really hard to implement whilst allowing for forward to gain speed also..actually it might not be that hard as I believe forward speed is just one cvar? FruitieX would be able to comment on this.

Problem is that we really can't enable strafe acceleration anymore -- the largest reason we removed it is because of strafebots and other such hacks.

Besides, imo there's still a large enough quality/challenge to being able to move around fast even without strafe acceleration.

Well really, this electro idea is quite stupid, we already have a rocket launcher, yet we need another one? One of the main problems of nexuiz was the fact that most weapons behaved like a rocket launcher either on steroids or on crack, why you insist and argue so much on the fact that that needs to repeat here again is baffling.

Laser force is fine as it is, it requires a decent amount of skill to reach a decent amount of height, in Nexuiz it required nothing to get the strongest push in the game(laser and RL had both 400) an idea which is in itself wrong. I agree it having a decent push, I disagree on being able to jump 4 stories up with the startup weapon.

Rocket Launcher should have a decent radius too, it's the biggest projectile in the game so far it should cause the biggest explosion. In it's current setting it is quite fine, allowing for corrections on trajectory on far shots and it's fast enough to be useful on close range, it also has a decent radius that deals a small enough amount of edge damage. Having a really fast steerable rocket with a small radius is insane, it makes yet another extreme weapon which is what nexuiz suffered from, too many extremes, extreme push, extreme damage, extreme health, extreme game that made no sense.

I suggest you get a test server up, these should be tested before release and tested a lot, fruitiex balance was tested a lot.

Samual: Nah, the movement feels kinda crippled now... But hey, to each his own.. Also: Why does it still work in XPM then?

Can we please have one server in EU that features the latest proposal of physics and balance so that we can do public testing on it as we did with FruitieX's balance/physics? Only by that we will receive qualified feedback and only by this can we get accustomed to the new behaviour of weapons. It should be a server that constantly adapts to the changes being made in git, so that changes and tweaks can be applied rather quickly.

Maybe atheros can host one, i will be able to host one soon too, tough my servers will most likely focus on pro mode there will be default ones too.

Well really, this electro idea is quite stupid, we already have a rocket launcher, yet we need another one? One of the main problems of nexuiz was the fact that most weapons behaved like a rocket launcher either on steroids or on crack, why you insist and argue so much on the fact that that needs to repeat here again is baffling.

No, I disagree: Lightning on electro breaks the best purpose for the gun in the first place, which is its combo. Besides, electro primary and rocketlauncher are still fairly different, especially since rocketlauncher has guide. Your point would be valid if the projectile speeds were close to the same and the general function were the same, but it's not.

BTW, no, the main problems of redundant weapon functions wasn't that of the rocketlauncher -- it was that of the MG. Trufax: Uzi was the first gun of this type implemented in Nexuiz, then others were slowly added over time which became fairly redundant.

Laser force is fine as it is, it requires a decent amount of skill to reach a decent amount of height, in Nexuiz it required nothing to get the strongest push in the game(laser and RL had both 400) an idea which is in itself wrong. I agree it having a decent push, I disagree on being able to jump 4 stories up with the startup weapon.

I'd rather keep it high and penalize the player more for using it (by higher self damage) -- So you don't see overuse of it on maps like dance, but it's still a good tool. Besides: Other games have walljumps or climbing or other means of getting around easily, why can't Xonotic have its own method for moving around available to anyone all the time? (via a starting weapon)

Rocket Launcher should have a decent radius too, it's the biggest projectile in the game so far it should cause the biggest explosion. In it's current setting it is quite fine, allowing for corrections on trajectory on far shots and it's fast enough to be useful on close range, it also has a decent radius that deals a small enough amount of edge damage. Having a really fast steerable rocket with a small radius is insane, it makes yet another extreme weapon which is what nexuiz suffered from, too many extremes, extreme push, extreme damage, extreme health, extreme game that made no sense.

Extreme? Huh? It's not even that much faster OR smaller (compared to balancefruit) btw.. also, imo it's okay to have small rockets instead of giant rockets like what was in Nexuiz as long as they're still fun. Not even going to respond to the rest of your rant, as it's nonsense.

I suggest you get a test server up, these should be tested before release and tested a lot, fruitiex balance was tested a lot.

I do and have for a long time -- My balance is very thoroughly tested in the NA community and some parts of the EU community, FruitieX's just had a head start.

It's already up (iirc just the balance one is up now), but I plan to update it so here will be the new layout/ports:
decrux.mcintec.net:26000 - Primary server, giant DM pit with g_weaponarena_random... mainly to gather "pure" statistics about weapons.
decrux.mcintec.net:26001 - Keepaway server
decrux.mcintec.net:26002 - Whatever you want server (everything is vcallable)

Again, it's not exactly like this right now.. I know only one of them is up right now (primary statistics server) -- so just try connecting to decrux.mcintec.net:26001 and use that until I finish updating it. I'll edit this post when I finish the updates.

The statistics server will probably ACTUALLY use a "pit" map so I can get non-map specific statistics. Right now from the stats I already have, it's very clear that balance is very different for different maps... so I want to eliminate that variable right now and just make sure the balance alone is balanced properly, THEN comes the job of the mapper to balance their own map. (This is something we neglected with default Xonotic balance and also Nexuiz -- it has the same problem... it's extra work, but needed... Ever seen final_rage for example? Most unbalanced map ever made )


Oops, forgot to reply to these:

Samual: Nah, the movement feels kinda crippled now... But hey, to each his own.. Also: Why does it still work in XPM then?

It perhaps feels crippled to you after just using Nexuiz physics, but trust me you get used to it (in a good way)... Also: Same reason it works in many other physics configs: It's not default, and thus does not have to comply with anti-cheat rules... ^_^ There's actually a ton of things in this game which could be made evil if you know what you're doing, but since they're never done by default there's no issue.

One other note people: Don't use balanceSamual.cfg in master for a bit until it's updated (I'll say when), I still need divVerent to merge it. What we really need is for tZork and I to have direct commit access to master for balances, but iirc there was an issue with git which broke EVERYTHING when we tried that. I also want to finally update the balance configs TOTALLY, they need renamed and moved around a little. (That's a whole other story.)

I would prefer a Rifle that has fairly rapid refire and switching, but really only rewards you if you get a headshot. More like tZork's. Also please leave it on Dance, it works well there IMHO.

Code:

vcall "Leave Laser alone"
say F1

As long as the RL and Electro bolt are different enough, I don't have a problem with it.

+1 for rocketjumps, even though I don't use them myself...

Amidst the numerous redundancy complaints about the Electro, I will restate my suggestion in the hopes that someone notices.

Make it a hitscan explosive. Much smaller hit radius and damage than the RL but it's almost hitscan, with the speed of the projectile being almost instant. It would create a cool new weapon to work with.

So it sounds like you folks are wrestling with the issue of redundant weapon functionality; there are too many weapons for not enough useful features.

But then on the other hand, you are not sure what to do with the rocket launcher because is has too many competing features, where you either have to neglect some in favor of others or it becomes overpowered.

So it seems then that you should move some of the rocket launcher features over to a "feature starved" boring and redundant weapon. Like take rocket guidance and move it over to hagar or electro primary.

A similar situation is "radiation splash" on fireball secondary; the projectile splash damages nearby enemies as it flies through the air, before detonation. This is mostly redundant such a super weapon, but good functionality otherwise. Why is it not used on one of the redundant weapon fire modes? Like fireball primary or electro primary.

These are examples of something that previous balances sorely lacked. That is using solid and unique weapon functions to their fullest effect, thereby creating a truly diverse set of weapons.

Laser force is fine as it is, it requires a decent amount of skill to reach a decent amount of height, in Nexuiz it required nothing to get the strongest push in the game(laser and RL had both 400) an idea which is in itself wrong. I agree it having a decent push, I disagree on being able to jump 4 stories up with the startup weapon.

I'd rather keep it high and penalize the player more for using it (by higher self damage) -- So you don't see overuse of it on maps like dance, but it's still a good tool.

I'd much rather see very low self damage and crippled to death physics if this is the way we want to go.

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Rocket Launcher should have a decent radius too, it's the biggest projectile in the game so far it should cause the biggest explosion. In it's current setting it is quite fine, allowing for corrections on trajectory on far shots and it's fast enough to be useful on close range, it also has a decent radius that deals a small enough amount of edge damage. Having a really fast steerable rocket with a small radius is insane, it makes yet another extreme weapon which is what nexuiz suffered from, too many extremes, extreme push, extreme damage, extreme health, extreme game that made no sense.

--- Not even going to respond to the rest of your rant, as it's nonsense.

Starting to get a little worried about the future of the balance... That stuff was not nonsense, it was a fact about what made the Nexuiz balance utter bullcrap

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The statistics server will probably ACTUALLY use a "pit" map so I can get non-map specific statistics.

How often will people play on such maps in real matches?

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THEN comes the job of the mapper to balance their own map.

To make it as similar to the "pit" map as possible, that the weapon balance was designed for?

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I would prefer a Rifle that has fairly rapid refire and switching, but really only rewards you if you get a headshot. More like tZork's. Also please leave it on Dance, it works well there IMHO.

But why don't we then just get rid of the Rifle and make Nex bodyshots do slightly less damage...

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+1 for rocketjumps, even though I don't use them myself...

Rocketjumps are very much possible already.

"Rocket flying" was nerfed a little BECAUSE IT IS INSANE. As it is (was) already; after some practice you can fly from one Rifle platform to another on newtonian nightmare I'm sure.

I would prefer a Rifle that has fairly rapid refire and switching, but really only rewards you if you get a headshot. More like tZork's. Also please leave it on Dance, it works well there IMHO.

Code:

vcall "Leave Laser alone"
say F1

As long as the RL and Electro bolt are different enough, I don't have a problem with it.

+1 for rocketjumps, even though I don't use them myself...

Sure, but it should still reward a body hit slightly -- headshots at long distance (which is what the gun should mainly be for) are not exactly very common even for good players.

They are different++ enough imo, though I may actually consider mastermind's idea of a "very fast electro bolt" -- This sounds very hard to balance though, so i'm not sure...... Also probably wouldn't be THAT fun/unique... tZork: Your thoughts?

As for laser: I personally know more people who say "I want a more useful laser" than people who say "The laser as it is in FruitieX's balance is just fine" -- But we'll see how that turns out in a community balance survey, that's something we should probably ask of everyone. (Is a nerfed laser adequate/good to you?)

So it sounds like you folks are wrestling with the issue of redundant weapon functionality; there are too many weapons for not enough useful features.

But then on the other hand, you are not sure what to do with the rocket launcher because is has too many competing features, where you either have to neglect some in favor of others or it becomes overpowered.

So it seems then that you should move some of the rocket launcher features over to a "feature starved" boring and redundant weapon. Like take rocket guidance and move it over to hagar or electro primary.

A similar situation is "radiation splash" on fireball secondary; the projectile splash damages nearby enemies as it flies through the air, before detonation. This is mostly redundant such a super weapon, but good functionality otherwise. Why is it not used on one of the redundant weapon fire modes? Like fireball primary or electro primary.

These are examples of something that previous balances sorely lacked. That is using solid and unique weapon functions to their fullest effect, thereby creating a truly diverse set of weapons.

*sigh* so many things...... which.... you missed the point on.... X_X


The redundant weapon functions ARE NOT INCLUDING THE ROCKETLAUNCHER, they are weapons which literally just ripped off other weapons. Prime examples: HLAC, and camping rifle (to some extent)... Hagar again to some extent, though it once was very separate. I think: If a weapon exists, it should share absolutely zero fundamental functions with any other weapon.


To FruitieX: Stop straw manning every single thing i've said Seriously, especially with the map balance thing for example. That one is either trolling or just plain stupidity on your part. What i'm trying to do is get a base balance of the weapons at the least influential map possible, then I can clearly see which weapons are more powerful.

Take a look at your own stats and compare the values of a few different maps, you'll see quickly that some weapons do MUCH better on some maps than others. For example, on my balance: Mortar dominated+++ on glowplant and final_rage, but not on other maps as much... Especially stormkeep, where it went negative. This was because those maps fit that type of weapons abilities really well (i'm guessing, maybe not in this specific case - but in general this is true), so it has an advantage there -- If I remove the specific situation issue, I can see how the balance performs at its core with an even playing field.

Another interesting thing is how much bots differ from humans when it comes to balance... But I won't get into this, lets just say that: Bots TOTALLY SUCK with some weapons, and TOTALLY ROCK with others.

Edit: Forgot to say, but... You CAN rocket fly with my rockets (though actually less easily than with default, higher refire), but they do so much self damage that you wouldn't want to do it very much.

I suggest a new law that says: taking a bag of potato chips before opening a(ny) thread of this forum increases the joy when reading.

And I'm interested, Mr *scrolling up for a minute to find poster's name, and down again to continue typing* Samual whether it SURPRISES you that BOTS "suck" with some weaopns? Did you actually use bots to see how well your weapons do?

That is like ... if the army (US army of course!) gave weapons to semi-intelligent apes (no offense to the bot-coders, but your solutions aren't AI-complete) and see who wins the war.

To be serious again: I don't see any good reason to use bots to evaluate weapon statistics. Neither do maps like egg and bacon make sense. IF you wanted to collect statstics, why not run the maps in warm up mode where players have all weapons anyway, but then let them play on real maps, e.g. runningman, stormkeep, etc.

IF you wanted to collect statstics, why not run the maps in warm up mode where players have all weapons anyway, but then let them play on real maps, e.g. runningman, stormkeep, etc.

Exactly, and average the stats you get on these REAL maps that people would actually play on.

Also it's probably a good idea to only have experienced Nexuiz/Xonotic players affect the fine tuning of values and let them do it mostly by feeling, not by the values you see in the weapon stats. In the end, so many factors exist that will throw off your deaths/damage per weapon values that one might want to consider these almost useless. E.g. what if players mostly use a certain weapon to finish someone off with, or always part of a weapon combo etc.

All of this tweaking was done as good as we could to the 0.1 balance, and further completed by this (thanks atheros/waterlaz for fixing remaining issues): http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1549
Why throw that away...

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I suggest a new law that says: taking a bag of potato chips before opening a(ny) thread of this forum increases the joy when reading.

* FruitieX grabs popcorn

I suggest a new law that says: taking a bag of potato chips before opening a(ny) thread of this forum increases the joy when reading.

And I'm interested, Mr *scrolling up for a minute to find poster's name, and down again to continue typing* Samual whether it SURPRISES you that BOTS "suck" with some weaopns? Did you actually use bots to see how well your weapons do?

That is like ... if the army (US army of course!) gave weapons to semi-intelligent apes (no offense to the bot-coders, but your solutions aren't AI-complete) and see who wins the war.

To be serious again: I don't see any good reason to use bots to evaluate weapon statistics. Neither do maps like egg and bacon make sense. IF you wanted to collect statstics, why not run the maps in warm up mode where players have all weapons anyway, but then let them play on real maps, e.g. runningman, stormkeep, etc.

I've run into Samual a few times on his server with players on it, I think it's safe to say he isn't screwing around. I imagine he probably uses both bots AND players to balance his weapons and probably goes less towards stats and more towards feel like I did when I balanced my configs. Stats are in my opinion not a good route to go, because currently the majority of maps are corridors AND (this is what happened to a lot of things in balanceFruit) a lot of weapons will lose their specializations from being turned into all-out fighting weapons. Others (such as the nex) will become unbalanced as well. Rock/Paper/Scissors is how the game should be balanced because it gives every weapon a purpose, makes map control a strategy, and makes the most effective weapon vary map to map and situation to situation. If you take a look at both mine and Samual's balances, you'll see that the most effective weapons depend on what map your playing as opposed to the unbalanced (unless it has been changed, been a while since I played with it) nex found in balanceFruit dominating every map that has it. The only real thing I question right now is the possibility of a few weapons being removed due to overlapping functions. I can understand why they want to remove them, but overlapping functions aren't always a bad thing if the weapons still retain a different feel and/or require different skills to use. Hell every Unreal/Tournament/Championship game had it as did Quake 3: Team Arena and Quake Live. A mapper can always decide if it's a bad idea to have two similar weapons on a map. Some maps do better with a rifle (frozen colors) while others (go) do better with the nex while others can use both pretty well.

Asking if a 'nerfed laser is adequate' is going to yield 'No' answers just from your wording. 'ZOMG THEY ARE GOING TO NERF THE LASER AGAIN!?!' (notice again, as this is what people will presume if you used that working) then they'll say no to this, and you will bump up the vertical force I expect regardless.

Atleast at the moment it takes SOME timing/skill to get the max height out of it, and since you used dance as an example I will, it is going to make this map much more, grab the flag and laser up high if you increase the vertical height push meaning it will make it easier to get away with the flag, and what with the quick physics allready, player's will be out of sight quicker and faster and also fail less to make that laser jump upto the top part of the map, even if you increase the self-damage, I can guarantee you 1) won't increase it enough as people will complain if you do. 2) It will still get used just as much to grab the flag and laser away because I cannot see you increasing the self-damage to a decent risk/reward ratio without half of the community complaining, and in a way that will stop what I just wrote happening on dance.

"because currently the majority of maps are corridors AND (this is what happened to a lot of things in balanceFruit) a lot of weapons will lose their specializations from being turned into all-out fighting weapons. Others (such as the nex) will become unbalanced as well. Rock/Paper/Scissors is how the game should be balanced because it gives every weapon a purpose"

Sorry, but you talk out of your ass, then again I already knew this.

Everything else I'll await to see what you do.

This last read was funny, I actually ended up laughing out loud than rather thinking of replies, I'll just keep my popcorn and like wait for the fork or something