Balance changes in progress for "0.2"

Current default balance itches allot of ppl, including many of the core devs the wrong way. The maintainer (FruitieX) tells us he has no time to maintain it anymore.

All this amount to it being necessary, in my and many other dev's view, to revamp the game balance and have ppl maintaining it who will actually maintain it.

Me and Samual are currently working together to find a acceptable compromise between all the ideas and wills buzzing around this hot potato. This will take time and effort to get right, I will post updates when they are available.

Since this got known in various forum threads and irc channels many have raised their voice in favor of FruitieX (current) balancing too. I understand your anxiety that it may throw off what you learnt so far and or/what you helped develop (hello pickup players ;-).

As for the first part, this cant be helped in a pre-release game. things may and will change allot before Xonotic 1.0 see the light of day. As for the second part the new balance will be a continuation of what we currently have in many areas. Only drastic changes will be where Samual and I feel the current system is unacceptable.

If you have constructive criticism or ideas, feel free to let me know (and if you just want to balance spam™, do not waste your time, ill delete any such posts from this thread.)

Finally I would ask you to be patient and at least wait for the new balance proposal to be planned, implemented and tested before you start telling the world how wrong it is.

All I have to say is good luck with your balances, but please, don't totally remove the shaft. I think that weapon type already has it's own place in the balance, I'd be very sad to loose that

I hope to see a new survey(/poll (without multiple choice to get a real result)) some day about your balance and the FruitieX balance, rather the balance that the Shell guys are creating. Just to see which is the best in the opinion of the players.
In my opinion a lot of weapons in default are already 'perfect' and some need work. Please don't touch the Laser for example - its just fine.
My thoughts on the weapons:

• Shotgun: Spread could be a little lower maybe and the melee got a sick range I think.
  
• Machine Gun: I almost never use this weapon, so no comment on this one.
  
• Mortar: Mortar is just ok as it is now.
  
• Electro: I personally don't mind what you do with Electro (keep LG or bring back old).
  
• Crylink: The Crylink in default balance is nice except that the seoncdary fire mode is a bit too strong (lower damage here).
  
• Nex: The autocharge seems to be a good idea though I don't think that it should charge because of the velocity.
  
• Hagar: If Hagar and T.A.G Seeker will be merged I would keep T.A.G.s primary (with ~3-5 rockets) and Hagar secondary (but without spread).
  
• Rocket Launcher: The RL curve thing is kinda useless in default balance so a) remove curving b) make it easier (Nexuiz like).
  
• HLAC: The HLAC seems fine in default balance.
  
• T.A.G. Seeker: See Hagar
  
• Sniper Rifle: When I tried both of your balances the Rifle was super fast without a switch delay. I don't know the damage but I think if its super fast+no delay it will be overpowered like the Nex in Nexuiz. The default balance used a nice way that this weapon is not overpowered.
  
• Mine Layer: Seemed a bit weak to me in default balance in DM.
  
• MinstaNex: -
  
• Fireball; Port-O-Launch; Grappling Hook: In my opinion at least 1 of these weapons should be removed. There are already many weapons.
  
• # @#!%'n Tuba: Fun weapon.
  

Also don't make incredible speed of the projectiles (or whatever) please.
I would keep the current physics btw, cause they're pretty nice.

hi hi,

a short comment thingo,

nex needs zoom as secondary (im old school player , i dont use keys to swap , i use wheel up/down)

rocket should be back to 2.5.2 days (damage /jump angles/ curving , etc etc)
(again note i need to fly!) (my flying style!!!!)

laser to be normal

thats it , rest are all good , movement is good , flow is good , cpu nerd shitz is good , music is good blah bah

i would also like to thank fruitiex for all of his work , and im lucky to of had the chance to work with him (ty mate , gl with school thingos) COME BACK SOON! (thingo)

x


tx^@=
(thingo)

The only thing that really itches me now is electro behavior. Even egon from Half-Life deathmatch is more balanced; at least it doesn't paint victim's whole screen red so he/she can't see a shit once hit by a beam. I'd rather give electro it's nexuiz 2.5.2 abilities.

at least it doesn't paint victim's whole screen red so he/she can't see a shit once hit by a beam.

You can turn that damage visualisation off, and I would recommend to have it turned off by default since you can't really play with it unless you don't get hit at all. I mean, we are excessively discussing hot to fine-tune the weapon balance to the finest detail so that new players have a better learning curve but then we make them basically blind as soon as they get hit unless they turn off some thing hidden somewhere in the settings? Kinda weird priority order, I think ;P

Anyhow, I am always open to new developments except for any reduction of the laser's usability. Maybe some of the devs even acknowledge the popularity of space maps in Nexuiz and consider my ideas to emphasize push force effects on some pickup weapons, as the air control is currently really high and therefore it is very hard to push people off a map (an aspect enjoyed by many people that played Nexuiz).

Heh, good luck.

Looking forward to playing when it's finally done.

The only thing that really itches me now is electro behavior. Even egon from Half-Life deathmatch is more balanced; at least it doesn't paint victim's whole screen red so he/she can't see a shit once hit by a beam. I'd rather give electro it's nexuiz 2.5.2 abilities.

Make sure you don't have old configs lying around from git, etc.. This can mess up the damage screen. It happened to me.. Moving the old config.cfg out of the way and just copying my weapon binds and message binds in made it much more bearable

nex needs zoom as secondary
rocket should be back to 2.5.2 days (damage /jump angles/ curving , etc etc)
(again note i need to fly!) (my flying style!!!!)

I completly agree, bring back the zoom as secondary for the Nex and the old Rocketjumps. Also, electro was nerfed a bit too much imo, could be A BIT stronger.

What.
You call scorching beam of overheated plasma turning everyone in an instant into ashes nerfing?
I really don't get it.

Just want to get this out of the way first since a lot of people are commenting on this and it hasn't been addressed:
I seem to be the only dev in favor of a laser as strong as the one in Nexuiz btw, tZork actually wants something about half as powerful (and this is where I disagree with him with the laser) -- He wants 235 force whilst Nexuiz default was 400 force... Default currently is 300 force, and I want 350 force AT LEAST. (These values by the way are refering to vertical force, for now lets ignore horizontal force as that just complicates things for this description) I think in the end we may go with a laser with a secondary even, like the laser in spidflisk (Nexuiz 2.3 mod for those who don't know) -- Where it had primary for short/semi-weak but fast shots, and secondary for powerful/semi-damaging but slow shots. So, maybe tZork's laser for primary and my laser for secondary.

Though... In the days of Nexuiz people were totally against this because they used the secondary to switch back.... This is something we need to put on a balance survey later, as I need to know whether it's a good idea to remove this switch-back secondary or not.

P.S.: FruitieX you suck, you coded the secondary of the laser wrong for guantlets so that it can't be disabled. I fixed it, but you still suck.


Anyway:
I'll just focus on a few weapons quickly...

#1: The Nex behavior has been switched by this poll: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.L0EyiaGK5vv/latest (inb4 "I DIDN'T GET TO VOTE", it was basically devs only. FruitieX wasn't even around when we took it, btw) -- The winner was tZork's method, read it and you'll see how it works. For now it's untested mostly but imo it performs the best, and seems to be ubiquitous with new players even. It also keeps the zoom on secondary ;3 Don't worry, you'll probably get your chance to vote on this later too in a full balance survey.

#2: Electro in our balance is back to its good old self (but with updates from 2.5.2) -- No longer does it have lightning. We plan on moving the lightning to another gun (possibly a new gun), so if you LIKE the lightning feature: don't worry, it'll probably be in the game still. Also: If you're worried about yet another gun, don't be: We're thinking of removing some weapons. (hagar because it's redundant, and hlac because it's redundant AND an energy weapon specifically -- if we make a lightning gun, we need to remove 1 energy weapon to balance it out for a new energy weapon.)

Yes, I want to keep the hagar secondary too... but: How? Seeker primary merged with hagar secondary would be too different/weird.

#3: I don't give a fuck about sniper rifle behavior. Honestly: You guys come up with whatever you want for it. The behavior in the balance we have now is just filler. (read: I didn't care enough to actually spend time on a behavior for it) -- It's very likely that we may just adapt the sniper rifle from default balance, unless someone can think of a better alternative.

#4: I wish to add timeouts/lifetimes to mines from the minelayer, this way they only last ~10 seconds. That makes it so the weapon will work even in CTF games, as right now people just leave them at the flag and wait until someone comes to take it. If it's only a short period of time, they can't just leave it and forget about it. That also means we can make the minelayer stronger. (slightly)

#5: And finally as for the rocket launcher.... I have two ideas for this gun: Either you have fast rockets with USEFUL guide (UNLIKE IN DEFAULT BALANCE), or you have slow rockets with no guide at all (like Nexuiz BEFORE 2.5.2). Default balance is an ugly merge between these, and it makes the guide seem like just a useless gimmick. Personally I prefer the first one, fast rockets with useful guide... Note: It takes a while to get used to, so don't immediately knock it if you aren't good at it at first. (Similar to shotgun secondary -- it's actually a really good secondary, but it's just hard to use) As for the rocketjumps btw, this WILL still be possible: But self damage is very high (75%). So you have to be stacked very high or else you've ruined yourself if you rocket jump.

That just about sums up the balance/what I wanted to reply with in this thread at the moment....

Stay tuned for when we have a release of the balance, although note: It probably won't work on xonotic preview, as there will be code changes+++.




Edit: I love how someone voted this thread one star. $20 says it was FruitieX

How does it make sense to have a RL that shoots fast rockets that you can steer? LOL that's like combining 2 advantages.

It makes much more sense to me to have either fast rockets that cannot be steered (they don't need to, they are flying fast enough), or to have slow rockets that you can steer though...

+1 for tZork's nexgun concept.

+1 to GreEn `mArine

+1 to tZork's nexgun concept

What's wrong with the current RL guide..it's mainly used for long distance guiding, not short distance, balance?

---

How does it make sense to have a RL that shoots fast rockets that you can steer? LOL that's like combining 2 advantages.

It makes much more sense to me to have either fast rockets that cannot be steered (they don't need to, they are flying fast enough), or to have slow rockets that you can steer though...

+1 for tZork's nexgun concept.

+1 also for the RL comment, my thoughts exactly, which is why it is in the current balance..so you can't just shoot and steer at quite close range.

...

Ok, I think I can live with or even prefer most of the changes you are addressing.

But from what I am reading here, I don't know if your bashing against FruitieX is to be interpreted as buddy-like sarcasm or as really offensive. I think FruitieX has done a great job on the balance so far and has spent a lot of effort on this, which should not be discredited. Also did he suspend his efforts for good reasons as far as I am informed, as investing time in your education is the most reasonable thing to do ANY time. My bottom line: I don't like disapproval nor tearing into pieces of other people's efforts. In case I got you wrong please be so kind and try to be less ambiguous :o)

+1 for promoting a strong laser though.

Leave laser as it is, why do you want to screw this up. I will probably just wait until 0.2 to try all this new stuff, I will give it a fair 'trial' also, but expect to get bashed by me no end if you mess things up!

How does it make sense to have a RL that shoots fast rockets that you can steer? LOL that's like combining 2 advantages.

It makes much more sense to me to have either fast rockets that cannot be steered (they don't need to, they are flying fast enough), or to have slow rockets that you can steer though...

+1 for tZork's nexgun concept.

Well the way I have it, the rocket is smaller radius -- It also does less damage for remote detonation than direct impact.. So really it's more of a reward if you can steer it better: Which by the way, don't think just because it can curve more it's easier to handle..

I tried to balance it so it's still useful to new players, but also has room for improvement.

Try it (exec balanceSamual.cfg), my rockets haven't changed since Xonotic preview (much) -- If they're HONESTLY bad then i'll surely change it to something else... but as of now, most people I know who have tried them like them after playing with them for a bit.

What's wrong with the current RL guide..it's mainly used for long distance guiding, not short distance, balance?

I think it's useless even at long distance -- might as well just be a straight firing rocket with more speed... like from quake. Many others agree about this as well.. If even my solution is bad, then the next best alternative is to remove guide altogether imo.

DiaboliK for example totally hates any kind of guide and would rather have it simply removed.... he's honestly not the only one with the same opinion. (Even though I think they're wrong )

Edit: I should reply to this probably

But from what I am reading here, I don't know if your bashing against FruitieX is to be interpreted as buddy-like sarcasm or as really offensive. I think FruitieX has done a great job on the balance so far and has spent a lot of effort on this, which should not be discredited. Also did he suspend his efforts for good reasons as far as I am informed, as investing time in your education is the most reasonable thing to do ANY time. My bottom line: I don't like disapproval nor tearing into pieces of other people's efforts. In case I got you wrong please be so kind and try to be less ambiguous :o)

It's a bit of both Mainly because we've been rivals with balance for the longest time anyway... But he also completely wasn't nice/un-hostile on some other occasions (Nor have I though). Basically, we're best pals except when we discuss how a rocket should be fired. But, in the specific case where I called him a moron about the laser: That was just joking around ^_^

Also: I know he has perfectly good reasons to be away, but that doesn't change the fact that he _is_ away.


Side note: tZork, what should we call the balance now?
balancetZorkual?
balancetSamuzork?
balancetZamual?
balancetZormual?
balancetSamuZorkal?

Food for thought.

How about balanceAnotherFail?

Just joking chief, good luck! I truely hope you can unite as many players that you can in this balance and possibly even have a better game as a result

I will most probably be with Xonotic anyway, but I might not be the most difficult person to persuade.

How does it make sense to have a RL that shoots fast rockets that you can steer? LOL that's like combining 2 advantages.

It makes much more sense to me to have either fast rockets that cannot be steered (they don't need to, they are flying fast enough), or to have slow rockets that you can steer though...

+1 for tZork's nexgun concept.

Hmm fair point indeed. My reasoning behind slow unguided is that it makes them hard enough to use to be able to let them have rather high damage without screwing over gamplay in all situations. Also, with the re-introduction of nexuiz style electro primary you have the basic fast unguided rl function there.

@Samual: balanceXonotic02 (its not just yours and my ideas in there, so lets not pretend it is ;-)

Please do not remove any weapons. The hanger can have added functionality to make it unique. Removing weapons is a step in the wrong direction.

I also find the current balance to be quite alright. Although the physics are way to fast. Yes they should be very easy to use (current balance), but not nearly as fast. Players are currently 'walking' (not bunny hop) at 9m/s. That's 100m in 11.11 seconds! I know its the future and everything, but the game speed is ridiculous. The physics also make the laser more redundant.

So I would only be in supports of your laser power increase Samual if the physics where slowed down.

#3: I don't give a fuck about sniper rifle behavior. Honestly: You guys come up with whatever you want for it. The behavior in the balance we have now is just filler. (read: I didn't care enough to actually spend time on a behavior for it) -- It's very likely that we may just adapt the sniper rifle from default balance, unless someone can think of a better alternative.

How can you create a good weapon balance if you don't care about some weapons?
Super fast Rifle without a delay is ridiculous btw (Hello Nex from Nexuiz).


+1 balanceShell.cfg

@Cuinnton - Ideas to make the hagar unique is welcome

@Mirio - Dont worry, I care abt it. It just have not need worked on yet.

#3: I don't give a fuck about sniper rifle behavior. Honestly: You guys come up with whatever you want for it. The behavior in the balance we have now is just filler. (read: I didn't care enough to actually spend time on a behavior for it) -- It's very likely that we may just adapt the sniper rifle from default balance, unless someone can think of a better alternative.

How can you create a good weapon balance if you don't care about some weapons?
Super fast Rifle without a delay is ridiculous btw (Hello Nex from Nexuiz).

I mean i'm indifferent to however it turns out. Obviously I care if it's balanced with other weapons, i'm just saying I really do not give a shit about how it behaves To me, that weapon could disappear from the game altogether and I would feel exactly the same as if it were there. I simply do not care

I already explained, the way it is now is just a filler... Stop throwing red herrings, and actually be helpful -- Perhaps you could actually provide a good idea on how it should behave? Then i'll listen to you.

Regardless of that btw: I'm allowed to not like some weapons LAWL... In my original balance, I literally just removed campingrifle/hlac/seeker (MANY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY AGREE WITH THIS, I remember when 2.5 was released every single person on the planet hated those weapons - they've just slowly grown more tolerable now).... but I can't do that because for some reason: Many people in the developer community disagree with this. Especially the one person with extreme veto power

Please do not remove any weapons. The hanger can have added functionality to make it unique. Removing weapons is a step in the wrong direction.

I also find the current balance to be quite alright. Although the physics are way to fast. Yes they should be very easy to use (current balance), but not nearly as fast. Players are currently 'walking' (not bunny hop) at 9m/s. That's 100m in 11.11 seconds! I know its the future and everything, but the game speed is ridiculous. The physics also make the laser more redundant.

So I would only be in supports of your laser power increase Samual if the physics where slowed down.

#1: Actually the most compelling reason to remove the hagar is that it would be exactly the same type of weapon model as the seeker (Fires miniature rockets).... It also really is one of "those" weapons with an extremely redundant function (rapid fire) with other weapons.. That's why I support merging of the seeker and hagar, or moving the hagar secondary to another weapon. P.S.: We've been looking for a unique function for the hagar for a loooong time, so far there have been very few actual attempts at something unique/useful.

#2: Xonotic != real life -- I've made "real" physics before which have human capabilities... They're bloody terrible Also: I should point out that i'm not in favor of increasing horizontal force...

You see, as a compromise FruitieX and I came up with -- He made it so that you can have separate force for vertical and horizontal directions... You can also make it do less force the faster the player is moving. Basically, this is so that you can have e.g. 400 force going upwards while only having 200 force sideways. -- You can't speed around like a lightning bolt, but you can jump. --

This is why I support a stronger* laser, as it does not make the players FASTER, it just makes them jump higher.

Besides, personally I love the physics/speed. imo they're much better than Nexuiz's physics once you get used to them... but i've always been in favor of faster gameplay.

ok , about the rocket speed and curving , watch my interview thingo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ8qOVoyHfY

ok?
now ya can see its good , ,yes i did top that game (BUT THATS MY FAV MAP SO IM ALLOWED TO PAWN AT IT) (ty tzork) but im not really OWNING IT either!

seriously when one can get used to this curving stuff its bloody good fun , EVEN IF YA THE PERSON RECIEVING THE F..KIN THING!

regardless , people will adapt AND think of ways and combos to gain an advantage in game,
FOR THEIR OWN ADVANTAGE! (screw anyone else right?)


btw if you disagree to that comment then im telling you to get your 58 button/9000dpi nerd mouse and your epic custom moulded fancy glow keyboard and ya 1 milliongig zit puss fueled grapix card and ya 9000.1 surrond sound ear buds......

AND BIN THEM! COS YA F,,KIN CHEATING!

(oh my)

dont turn weapons into boring crap , lame pissy guns will send nerds off to other games.

have a fair default........ but allow full and free play style , allow tweeking via admins.

oh and people should be allowed to use ANY space in ANY map that is allowed by the mapper.
if one dont like it , then dont play it , kiss (keep it simple stupid)

anyway apart from that...

hi hi!

im new!

:^

p.s name the name thingo after me :p