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domination aspect in 1v1

#1
So here is a thought I had for quite a long time. I just would like to have other witnessings.

When I started playing in 1v1 several months ago, I was most often totally raped by good/top players.
I always lost with a score of the form N - 0, with N arbitrary large positive integer.
So I just told myself: ok, there is a pretty simple explanation: I just suck hard.

Several months later, I still lose N - 0 against top players (did you see I don't mention good players Tongue ?).
The fact is: against top players, scores had remained the same, eventhough i'm a better dueler now.

With certain players (waldi, dim, ...), it even does not make sense to play in F4 mode. For me, it's a nightmare. For them, it's just boring.
But, in warmup mode, everybody has much more fun, and it's immediately way more balanced (maybe also because it's less competitive that way).

This makes me feel that the domination aspect in 1v1 is maybe not optimally tuned.
More precisely, it seems that the score doesn't traduce in a continuous manner the skill gap between opponents. Which is a bit frustrating.
As compared, 1v1 Clan Arena is generally more interesting and balanced.

Here I'm not trying to overcome a problem, I just would like to know if some of you think that there is a problem.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#2
Personally, I don't. The one or two frags I get in matches against waldi or dim are way more rewarding than frags in other games, even if equaled out by my obligatory suicides.
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#3
There is no problem, it's just a big divide in skill difference - much more then you realise.

1on1 isn't just about a balanced game-mode, there's so many advanced strategies you are most likely not even aware of (no offence intended), a lot of 1on1 is based on strategies, I mean I haven't been active in 1on1 properly for a long time now, but I could probably explain a few concepts.

The best way to learn is to watch demo's and to try to think 'why is he aiming there', why is he going there, how does he know his opponent is there etc. A massive part of 1on1 is prediction, it's pretty hard to do when the game is going so quick, people who play lots (e.g the QuakeLive top duelers) don't have this problem as they have come across the same/similar situations so often and my guess is they are always thinking when they need to be, watch this video you'll see the element of just running around is not random but to a plan.

Watch this video RATWM to get a true insight into how deep dueling goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

Things to take note:

Positioning
In AND out of control - all to often people in nexuiz run around or charge in when they lose control, there is very little concept about just taking your time and trying to get bck into the game, I do this often on a few maps, but people either lose patience or just don't understand what i'm doing so it's very easy for me to get back into the game.

Once you can understand the questions of 'what, where, how, why' you'll have a much better concept, then it's down to actual player skill in movement, aim, feignts, spawn knowledge, item timing etc, you can do simple moves that throw your opponent off and make it easier to line up a shot, I'd have to make small video's to show what I mean, it's hard to explain without footage.

Also experience plays a big part with learning this kind of stuff, where as you may get taken to school/schooled by better player's then yourself dim/waldi, I have been schooled by better player's then myself I have come from more likely a more competitive background then you, with more experience against better player's so i've been able to learn more if that makes sense. I hope the video gives you a good insight into what i'm trying to explain if you want to get better, things are very rarely done by random, that's why experienced competitive fps player's hate random elements in games as it takes away from there/the skill edge.

Effectively, a lot of it is about a thinking level, if you have roughly the same weapon skill, movement, timing etc, but you can out think your opponent you have a huge edge. I'm pretty sure PCLizard can explain a bit more, I talked to him about small edges that add up in a game and will in the longrun make it easier for you to win, next time your on IRC, message me and i'll go through some concepts.

Also, don't get annoyed if you make a mistake, learn from it, if you mis predict it's not a problem, only if you let it become one.

Poker Heads up (1on1) operates in a similar way, if you can work out what your opponent is doing, you can exploit there flaws and give yourself a bigger edge, and make money over a period of time, duelling is basically the same concept, exploiting your opponent's mistakes & weaknesses and giving yourself a bigger edge over them from doing so, sometimes it can get crazy advanced and you will have to start thinking what your opponent is thinking what your thinking Smile
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#4
"There is no problem"
Totaly agree with kojn. Listen to his advices !

for me the 1on1 is based on two things:
- Skillz (Aiming and movement)
- Experience (Knowledge of weapons, physics, maps and timings)
Knowing the weaknesses of your opponents too. But it's Experience.

Maybe Waldo or dIM are not yet in your level. What is good in a ladder system (what I propose here : http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1041) is that you can know which players are at your levels, through it, you can have a more balanced game.
So learn faster ... Until the best!

For example, at the beginning of my adventure in 1on1, I winned all the time on DM public servers but most true players (1on1 players ^^) beat me easily. Then I got into the NSB, and I started climbing in the official rankings making official ladder matches. Then they forced me to be a PGP, and I began the serious things, with almost daily workouts with dIM.

For me it is really a sport like any other. Training, training, training ... At first, with your level athletes, and if you have some talent (skills) and time, with athletes at the top level.

For the record, I trained and interested waldi to 1on1 at the begining of his career Smile
Now I'm weak, but we will see when the beta will be available.

I'm glad that another French became interested in Nexuiz / Xonotic in a competitive way !
"J'espère qu'on pourra montrer au monde que les Français savent jouer ! (surtout aux Allemands qui dominent bien trop le 1v1 Smile )"

Good Luck
Awesome, did Qz show you that ?
Nexuiz : I Reach the top5 of the ladder (even top3 I guess). Top1 French for quite some time (when active) of ladder. Top5 of some tournaments (if I remember well)
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#5
@kojn:
Very interesting video. But I'm not so surprised to see what's in there.
Actually, i am at a point where I know that the 'what, where, how, why' questions are crucial, but everything just goes too fast for my brain to be applied against top players.
And you're right: watching top players demos helps to understand a lot.
Now, I also know that you can have such an high level thinking only when the basics (move, aim) are handled. And this takes time...

Just one thing I strongly advice to intermediate players: play a top player, be raped, and then ask him to send you his demo.
Doing this, I realized for the first time how I am predictible.

@Cuizi: fully agree with you: 1on1 is just like a sport.
The only problem with Nexuiz is that regular duelers (at least in EU) are mostly very solid players.
And this situation is obviously pervert in order to hook newbies.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#6
RATWM , the best way to get better is to not lose patience and try to learn item timing and attack positioning by playing in a map like stormkeep. DO NOT PLAY SOYLENT if you want to quickly enhance your dueling skills. Fighting situations in soylent are not the average ones, its not that the map is bad Tongue Warfare is also very suitable, even toxic and batcula(yes that map).

Sincerely, when i was in my top form about 3 months ago, i played for the first time a single frag close match with dim in aggressor (still lost hehe), after 1 year of ultimate failure but constant practice. But finally felt that in that map, i could beat him, learning autistically all the posible routes/spam exits and being there first.

Its not about the game mode being wrongly balanced, its about completely different tactics than FFA or warmup mode. Items are absolutely everything, and getting back in control from a map like aggressor or final rage is a piece of magic and art worthy like a triple mid-air nex shot tbh Smile
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#7
I see what RATWM is saying, there isn't as many beginner/intermediate duellers, most of the good 1on1 player's make up for the majority of duellers, I do think this is changing though now as it seems more people are picking up the gametype, which can only be a good thing Smile
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#8
Perhaps a thread where aspiring duelers could post demos and get advice from more experienced players would be a good idea? Preferably with demos of both players.

For the longest time i simply refused to play duels because of the dominance element, that is you have to keep your opponent from getting anything or value (or have the same done to you). To me it came on as rather unsportsmanlike and did not seem hold any real prospect of good game-play to me. As the (nexuiz) public ctf scene slowly but surely turned from enjoyable to frustrating idiocy i started playing more and more death match. And finally i ended up doing some duels anyway.. to my surprise, i found it rather enjoyable regardless of outcome. I should add tough that (i guess i was lucky here) i dident end up facing opponents that could effortlessly beat me each time. If i had started that way i think my outlook would have been different. All this said, i think Nexuiz style duels are flawed in some ways - mainly weapons dont fit to good, as most sux in pvp. and item control is somewhat unimportant on many maps due to large map size allows regen to counter need for health and overuse of small hp/ap pickups makes megas less of a hotspot.
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#9
Some good advice there tZork.

As for maps you are probably correct also, which is why I have myself said about lower stacking values, and making maps so they use 100a/50a/25a and not placing 3x 100a on each map such as aggressor..it would be nice if this could get changed (although this is just one example). Stormkeep the old one used to have the problem with the shards/vials but it's now been fixed thanks to you and whoever else worked on the map.

When there is as you said too much items, it kind of makes it very spammy, people just rush in a lot and take's a lot of emphasis away from the 1v1 skill imo, but I think also you can control like one item but it doesn't matter too much cause someone just picks up another 100a as there is 3 of them, so I understand what you mean about item control is somewhat unimportant in that aspect.

I was thinking about this also, perhaps a site or something where player's can upload demo's. Something similar to this site:-

http://www.challenge-tv.com/ <---

I think this would be a great way for player's to get demo's from the better player's and a place to discuss, perhaps Dokujisan might be able to help us out here?
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#10
Without ever trying to get into the domination mindset about 1v1, nor wanting to do that, I have still had a large number of very enjoyable 1v1 games over the years. The trick there is to arrange games with opponents who have the same idea as you: just to have fun in a game. Then winning or losing will never feel like frustration and the game will mostly be very enjoyable for both players.

If you want to stay clear of the domination side of 1v1 (like me) just stay clear of the top players who think about the duels like that. Spare yourself the frustration of playing against the top ranked players out there Smile If you dream about beating them however, be prepared to start thinking like them too Smile

As a side note: the competive scene in Nexuiz was never quite big enough to make the climb a gradual one. When you started getting out of noobness, you ran into frustrating games all too quickly, there were not enough players to make for a gradual climb. If Xonotic brings in a bigger crowd, hopefully this will change...
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