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Why replace the mg with the ARC?

#1
Shocked 
I know that the ARC will replace the mg in 0.8.
But may i ask why?Ok,maybe Quake players may like it more,but i mean the mg was pretty good already.It had a good weapon model,was well balanced and was because of the burst mode usable for long distances.And the current testable prototype of the ARC used cells as ammo,and aren't there already enough weapons that use cells? Huh
I would love a good answer.
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#2
First of all it's something a lot of people have claimed is the reason they don't play Xonotic. Wheather this is true or not is of course questionable, but if it even imrove the playerbase a little I think it's a good direction. Secondly I think it is partly due to the new system which should be more consistent and logical than the old one. Thirdly there was some interesting ideas to it, I've heard (but not seen any of it in testing) for example the devs talked about having it heal teammates (would certainly make quad runs quite interesting, since they'll be twice as strong if your team has good coordination and communication).
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#3
(12-15-2014, 09:39 AM)machine! Wrote: First of all it's something a lot of people have claimed is the reason they don't play Xonotic. Wheather this is true or not is of course questionable, but if it even imrove the playerbase a little I think it's a good direction. Secondly I think it is partly due to the new system which should be more consistent and logical than the old one. Thirdly there was some interesting ideas to it, I've heard (but not seen any of it in testing) for example the devs talked about having it heal teammates (would certainly make quad runs quite interesting, since they'll be twice as strong if your team has good coordination and communication).

Yes,all that is true,but i think the mg was a good weapon already.
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#4
Cell weapons should be split up into two ammo types in the future. (that's planned)
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#5
(12-15-2014, 12:08 PM)Mirio Wrote: Cell weapons should be split up into two ammo types in the future. (that's planned)

Sounds good.
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#6
MG is Xonotic's only equivalent of LG currently and as such I dislike it for several reasons:

1. Has barely any push (can't pin people in air)
2. Loses against every high tier weapon in almost every situation
3. Alt fire is very impractical, does anyone ever use it even? In weird CTF maps maybe?
4. Reload (I pray to god ARC's primary wont have that overload crap, it absolutely ruins shaft fights)
5. Bullet spread
6. Long fire range
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#7
The arc will overheat and require a little cooldown period. This is absolutely required to balance the weapon.

Arc will not replace machine gun in 0.8, the ammo system for it is not implemented.
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#8
Phew ok good to know.

(12-15-2014, 04:36 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: MG is Xonotic's only equivalent of LG currently and as such I dislike it for several reasons:

1. Has barely any push (can't pin people in air)
2. Loses against every high tier weapon in almost every situation
3. Alt fire is very impractical, does anyone ever use it even? In weird CTF maps maybe?
4. Reload (I pray to god ARC's primary wont have that overload crap, it absolutely ruins shaft fights)
5. Bullet spread
6. Long fire range

And exactly for the spread secondary fire is there.
To number 2:Say that to Drealor Wink
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#9
(12-15-2014, 04:36 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Has barely any push (can't pin people in air)

It actually have negative push iirc, very useful in CTF. Smile
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#10
(12-15-2014, 08:54 PM)Mario Wrote: The arc will overheat and require a little cooldown period. This is absolutely required to balance the weapon.
A. Make it consume more ammo
B. Make it have less max ammo

Anything but cooldown/overheat pls!
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#11
You may start a poll on this, but I won't be overhauling a weapon right before release for 1 person. The overheating works very well in its current state, it would be a shame to throw that away for a few Quake fans.
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#12
(12-15-2014, 04:36 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: MG is Xonotic's only equivalent of LG currently and as such I dislike it for several reasons:

1. Has barely any push (can't pin people in air)
2. Loses against every high tier weapon in almost every situation
3. Alt fire is very impractical, does anyone ever use it even? In weird CTF maps maybe?
4. Reload (I pray to god ARC's primary wont have that overload crap, it absolutely ruins shaft fights)
5. Bullet spread
6. Long fire range

reason 5 is why i prefer arc over mg, its far more satisfying using a weapon with no spread.

heavy laser assault canon fires so randomly its not fun to use, i know crouch helps but i'm never gonna because of how vulnerable its makes me
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#13
It is not yet decided whether it will replace it or not... there are simply a few people who support this idea. I am among those who strongly oppose the replacement! Both the Arc and the UZI are good weapons, and IMO should remain separate. A few developers believe they are for some reason recursive and have identical behavior, although up to this day I can't even fully see how.
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#14
(03-21-2015, 01:08 PM)MirceaKitsune Wrote: It is not yet decided whether it will replace it or not... there are simply a few people who support this idea. I am among those who strongly oppose the replacement! Both the Arc and the UZI are good weapons, and IMO should remain separate. A few developers believe they are for some reason recursive and have identical behavior, although up to this day I can't even fully see how.

Over the years I've been waiting for the arc cannon to replace the MACHINEGUN in the core weapon set, you're the only person I've heard from who doesn't support the change. I was also under the impression that this was decided a long time ago, and the mg was to be moved to a mutator or maybe turned into a superweapon. Who else is with you on this?
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#15
He is not alone. i dislike arc and the concept of making this game a quake clone. The mg is fine (except no one likes the reload but i can live with that) and i think it got better in 0.8. I guess the clip contains more bullets or something like that, i never notice those things. It just feels better IMO in 0.8. I don't like the model of arc, it looks ugly to me. I honestly never said anything about this or any development stuff because i feel embarrassed to criticize people for their hard work in their free time which makes so many people happy, and i didn't put any work in it myself.
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#16
A simple straight shaft with limited range would be better than the mg imo, but with adding wobble and overheating you have the disadvantages of the mg + you made it harder to use for players with high ping (unless the shaft is purely clientside, which would introduce other problems). Also as soon as someone learns how to hit high % the arc will be nerfed. So yea, no fun there anyway, can as well keep the mg.
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#17
Overheating and the bending arc effect are comparable to the machine gun's reloading and random spread, ways to balance the weapon.
The arc isn't supposed to be a straight heavy damage shaft like the lightning gun in other games, it's balanced as a replacement for the machine gun, which will eventually become a chaingun of sorts (if that plan even still exists).

The arc in its current state is not finished at all, the model is a placeholder and the weapon hasn't been properly balanced yet (especially secondary).
We also intend to make the end of the arc beam bend towards the crosshair, rather than lagging behind (an effect which would closer resemble an "arc").
It isn't even available on official settings, the servers that have it are customized for testing.
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#18
I think the LG should replace the MG for a number of reasons:
A: in addition to being effective as a finisher weapon, it's range makes it more versatile than it should be
B: It has it's own specific ammo
C: We already have a fully automatic weapon (hagar)
D: Reloading clashes with the rest of the game mechanics
F: Lightning gun would make the gameplay more interesting
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#19
I like the Machine gun and it ends up being one of the weapons I do the most damage with. Arc is kind of similar with tracking targets, but it's shorter range- conceptually similar to the Lightning Gun in Quake, but more resembling of a water hose than a straight beam I recall.

   

I found some mentions that the Machine gun is going to be removed and replaced by the Arc.

http://www.moddb.com/games/xonotic

https://archive.is/V2LBd#selection-10711.0-10711.245
[I'm not getting the idea that it's particularly weak, I think it's at least balanced if not a bit powerful.]

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=5210

A complete replacement (only having Arc and never seeing MG again for official play) doesn't sound promising. It sounds better to have some maps spawn MG and some others spawn Arc, while both are official weapons.

I think the limited range weapon replacing the longer range weapon makes the weapons set in Xonotic more similar to Quake and less unique; especially, the situation with engaging an opponent at long range. Which I think Xonotic should focus more on unique features than common ground with another game with higher brand name recognition if it really was the case.
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#20
Machinegun is not particularly useful. It barely obstructs your opponent's movement, you can't pin people in air with it, aim and pray type of spread for bullets which is not really reliable for long/mid range and your aim is off as soon as one of the many splash weapons hit near your vicinity. It's definitely better than nothing, but if you have other weapons then you're usually better off using them instead. Arc is meant to bring Xonotic tracking aim element that is on par with other aim elements. Having those both weapons would be a pointless clash of role and mess of keybinds. There was an experimental Arc that had a secondary fire mode similar to Hagar's primary and it's point was to replace both MG and Hagar, so that there would be a more compact weapon arsenal for competitive play. Not sure what's the fate of that idea though.

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#21
I find it useful, though I never considered it for obstructing movement or pinning people in the air (since those are fulfilled by the blaster or devastator). Aim is generally disrupted anyways if an explosive bumps the character.

Overall I think MG is a nice continuous alternative to Vortex without the high risk/reward, yet without the same range (its said it's unlimited, so I take it as a it's "limited by spray" kind of deal). Spray can be questionable since it can be a matter of luck if it involves RNG, but that could just be a matter of how spray or "spray" done rather than making a completely new weapon. Such as, if the reason behind spray was to have the MG be lesser effective at long range, that can just be represented by a conventional hitscan beam, but the damage output is the average dps of the originally, actually spraying weapon at that range.

Just my thoughts. I was a bit peeved at the possibility that someone wanted a game to play like another game, but at least it's not that.

Edit: Also does the Shotgun not have spray too?
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#22
Merged threads.
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#23
Xonotic is not as well thought through as you may think, it's still in beta and that's why there's constantly changes to weapons/balance. If something is flawed somewhere it doesn't justify for another thing to be flawed as well. Shotgun is a deliberately weak and unreliable spawn weapon, this forces players to move into weapon pickups and most of the time denies them having an advantage after respawning. It's by design only useful against weak opponents or opponents that also have only a shotgun. I'd be in favor of having a non random spread pattern for it as well though.

(07-01-2016, 08:39 AM)Iokast Wrote: Just my thoughts. I was a bit peeved at the possibility that someone wanted a game to play like another game, but at least it's not that.

To be honest, I wanted it to be like in Q3 at least in the sense that it'd be a reliable close/mid range hitscan weapon that you could use without any delay/overheat effect, at any time when you have ammo for it and you could have actual benefits from having collected lots of ammo for it. There's a clash of opinions here, because others think it's spam needs to be reduced (because of game modes that nobody plays which has infinite ammo) and others think it's supposed to be spammable (but not necessarily useful when spammed).
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#24
Still prefer Q3's lightning gun.
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#25
Don't fuck with shotgun randomness.
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