05-20-2012, 12:24 AM
Let me get some quick points out of the way first, then I will continue with direct responses.
#1: I said stay on the topic of the laser and shotgun. I will not reply any further than this post to other questions which are not relevant (i.e. regarding lightning gun/the other weapons, or the other mutator) as that is off topic and I don't have time for that.
#2: I already know how to handle older maps, it will be VERY simple to run old maps with the new weapons and it won't break any gameplay factors on the maps... It'll work similar to how Q3 maps work in Xonotic/Nexuiz, we re-direct the quake spawn functions to equivalent Xonotic based spawn functions so that the items still work accordingly. I can do this exactly the same way with legacy map entities, so that no map will be harmed by this in any significant way.
#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.
#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.
#5: I intend to still use the laser model, and I believe I can make both of the functionality and effects fit the model just fine. It will still be an energy weapon of the same sort, and the effects will still fit the style of the gun.
With that said... lets continue to the other points:
@ C.Brutail... Damnit man, you got so much stuff wrong in this post.. i'm a bit disappointed haha. Well, let me try and clarify things for you.
Firstly, as I had stated above, I will not break any existing maps. Additionally, this isn't even a massive change.... And it has been on my drawing board since before Xonotic was even created. All of these ideas were on my drawing board ages ago, i'm just finally getting around to them. It is not too late, and they're not very major changes. Besides, this is fucking off topic anyway
Secondly, I will surely not harm laser jumping in any way... otherwise I would never even consider the idea. The charging was for melee, not jumping.. thus there would be no delay. I don't even like the idea of charging anyway precisely, i'll just have to figure out some way to handle the melee and jumping at the same time. Either way, most of your points here are based on a misunderstanding.. and I assure you i'll only do this if I find some way to logically handle the jumping in a good and acceptable way to the majority of players.
Thirdly, yes trouting will be removed because there's no other way to do it. Get over it The game is fun in other ways anyway.
@ Chryyz... I do believe i've covered everything you mentioned above already. Ask again/restate your points if i'm wrong.
@ FruitieX... I actually suggested melee on all weapons quite a while ago... unfortunately, there are quite a lot of problems with this.. in the end I have determined it is neither feasible from a developer standpoint or from a balancing standpoint, and this is the next best option unfortunately.
@ Subzero... I also covered most of your points above, however addressing the mutators quickly: Yes, old behavior/models/code will still exist and be accessible with mutators.
@ srkdy... point taken: again, see above, I do believe I can still have the long range juggling possibly.
@ Antibody... again I covered all of your points and I agree with you entirely.
... you fucking morons, stay on topic! I'm not replying to these posts by kojn/fruitiex/W4RP1G. Make a summary of your ideas which are actually relevant and repost, otherwise I won't reply.
@ Osiris... I actually believe I can balance it quite well.. we'll see, I believe I can come up with something simple enough and easy enough to use.
@ W4RP1G... I quite like this post, good layout/points. #1: I agree, none. #2/#3: I answered this above, but simply: I am keeping all of the roles of these weapons intact. #4: indeed. #5: I have certainly seen complaints about the two weapons being odd and confusing to players, especially since our spawn weapons are a bit more odd than the weapons you referenced. Additionally, another big motivation for this is to remove shell ammo (shotgun ammo) in a logical way, as it is simply pointless and I want to clean up the ammo system.
#1: I said stay on the topic of the laser and shotgun. I will not reply any further than this post to other questions which are not relevant (i.e. regarding lightning gun/the other weapons, or the other mutator) as that is off topic and I don't have time for that.
#2: I already know how to handle older maps, it will be VERY simple to run old maps with the new weapons and it won't break any gameplay factors on the maps... It'll work similar to how Q3 maps work in Xonotic/Nexuiz, we re-direct the quake spawn functions to equivalent Xonotic based spawn functions so that the items still work accordingly. I can do this exactly the same way with legacy map entities, so that no map will be harmed by this in any significant way.
#3: The attack as primary and the jumping as secondary is negotiable, it could just as easily be reversed -- I can also even make a client side option for it to be reversed, so any client can choose what they want. I just thought that "attack" would be most logical to a new player on primary. of course other people would rather stick to their habit of using primary to jump with, which is fine. To clarify though, keep refering to primary and secondary like I have stated in the original post.. this will avoid confusion.
#4: It is possible to still have juggling-- I may have a way where this still works and I'll still be able to fit melee into it... but it's difficult to describe, i'll have to code it and show it to you guys.
#5: I intend to still use the laser model, and I believe I can make both of the functionality and effects fit the model just fine. It will still be an energy weapon of the same sort, and the effects will still fit the style of the gun.
With that said... lets continue to the other points:
Mr.Bougo Wrote:Do we really need this, or is this just change for the sake of change? It seems like the kind of thing you'd have to discuss extensively with the team before even presenting it to the playerbase...Yes, I think we need such a change.. there are a few logical flaws with the current design which I think should be addressed (due to input I have recieved and simply because it makes sense) and I think this is the best possible way to fulfil all the requirements while still being acceptable for the majority of players. If you must know all of these specific reasons, ask again -- i'd rather not have to type all of that out and such when I have so many points to reply to. Additionally, I have discussed such ideas for quite a while.. although apparently not enough according to some... Regarding the ammo and health consumption, this will be basically exactly the same. It will be infinite ammo, and low self damage-- just like current laser.
Also, what about ammo and health consumption of weapon-based movement currently provided by the laser? Currently it seems alright, with infinite ammo and relatively low damage. Does your replacement provide that?
W4RP1G Wrote:My idea would be to remove the shotgun, keep the laser primary as is, and make the secondary a high damage melee-ish attack. The only issue with that, and your idea Samual, is that the shotgun is an awesome finisher weapon as it is now. If you remove it, the only other finisher will be the LG(or MG if it stays), which is gonna urk some people that are used to finishing with the shotty.The new spawn weapon attack will behave EXACTLY like shotgun primary, but with a new effect. Essentially, it will still work as a defense weapon and a finisher, and the secondary will still function as the melee and jumping method like the laser.
@ C.Brutail... Damnit man, you got so much stuff wrong in this post.. i'm a bit disappointed haha. Well, let me try and clarify things for you.
Firstly, as I had stated above, I will not break any existing maps. Additionally, this isn't even a massive change.... And it has been on my drawing board since before Xonotic was even created. All of these ideas were on my drawing board ages ago, i'm just finally getting around to them. It is not too late, and they're not very major changes. Besides, this is fucking off topic anyway
Secondly, I will surely not harm laser jumping in any way... otherwise I would never even consider the idea. The charging was for melee, not jumping.. thus there would be no delay. I don't even like the idea of charging anyway precisely, i'll just have to figure out some way to handle the melee and jumping at the same time. Either way, most of your points here are based on a misunderstanding.. and I assure you i'll only do this if I find some way to logically handle the jumping in a good and acceptable way to the majority of players.
Thirdly, yes trouting will be removed because there's no other way to do it. Get over it
The game is fun in other ways anyway. @ Chryyz... I do believe i've covered everything you mentioned above already. Ask again/restate your points if i'm wrong.
@ FruitieX... I actually suggested melee on all weapons quite a while ago... unfortunately, there are quite a lot of problems with this.. in the end I have determined it is neither feasible from a developer standpoint or from a balancing standpoint, and this is the next best option unfortunately.
@ Subzero... I also covered most of your points above, however addressing the mutators quickly: Yes, old behavior/models/code will still exist and be accessible with mutators.
@ srkdy... point taken: again, see above, I do believe I can still have the long range juggling possibly.
@ Antibody... again I covered all of your points and I agree with you entirely.
... you fucking morons, stay on topic!
I'm not replying to these posts by kojn/fruitiex/W4RP1G. Make a summary of your ideas which are actually relevant and repost, otherwise I won't reply. @ Osiris... I actually believe I can balance it quite well.. we'll see, I believe I can come up with something simple enough and easy enough to use.
@ W4RP1G... I quite like this post, good layout/points. #1: I agree, none. #2/#3: I answered this above, but simply: I am keeping all of the roles of these weapons intact. #4: indeed. #5: I have certainly seen complaints about the two weapons being odd and confusing to players, especially since our spawn weapons are a bit more odd than the weapons you referenced. Additionally, another big motivation for this is to remove shell ammo (shotgun ammo) in a logical way, as it is simply pointless and I want to clean up the ammo system.
