Spawn Weapon Concept: "Blaster"

Hey guys, i'm back from the dead!

I took some vacations/breaks, but now i've generally got a working prototype of the new spawn weapon design. For those of you who don't know, I decided quite a while ago that I wanted to try and consolidate the spawn weapons into one more simple and clean design, and to help get rid of certain issues plaguing the weapon design as best as possible. Issues such as: Shotgun Shell ammo being too specific and useless in the grand scheme of ammo design, inconsistency with the melee attack being only on shotgun with no logical clarification as to why you can't use it on any weapon, and Laser only having one real fire mode whereas all other weapons have two. There are of course more issues i'm trying to address, but generally those are the largest issues. Anyway, as stated in my old post, I have concluded that merging the spawn weapons (Laser and Shotgun) is probably the best way to handle all of these issues. The concept I came up with in that post of course had flaws originally, and I used the input from players to create the prototype I have now. Here is the rundown of the idea:

• Primary = Radial blast, similar to shotgun primary attack, which can push players directional to the aiming of the attack. Additionally, it is used for jumping in exactly the same manner as Laser jumping was previously. It works as both an attack and a jumping method in mostly the same way Shotgun primary and Laser primary worked respectively. Consider it like a burst of air from a cannon which pushes everything out of its way... and if you aim it towards the ground, it pushes you away as well. That's the best way to describe the concept, even though in reality it uses energy, not air.
  
• Secondary = Melee literally ripped off of the Shotgun secondary. Same swing motion, same timing, but perhaps with better implementation for antilag and hit detection later on.
  
• Here are some twists/tricks to point out: For the primary, the force it exerts is based on how you aim, so if you aim BELOW a player, it will shoot them UPWARDS.... however if you aim ABOVE a player, it will shoot them DOWNWARDS. This kind of control was not possible with either the old Shotgun or Laser, and provides a new twist to compensate for the new functionality. However, since this blast does get wider over distance (similar spread to Shotgun), it does get weaker over distance too. It has generally a maximum falloff of 2000qu (about 40 player lengths, most would consider this mid-to-long range) and it loses up to 60% of its force/damage respectively.
  
• Some other notes about appearence: The "Blaster" weapon will continue to use the new Laser model, as it generally still fits the design of the attack. The current effects on the primary and secondary are simply for the prototype, and are ABSOLUTELY not what we'll stick with in the end. I have a much prettier effect in mind for the primary, which fades out far more over distance and is more like a cyclone of particles, however I don't want to waste the time programming it at the moment until i'm sure the concept of the weapon is acceptable, hence the temporary effect is made just to show off the weapon. Also, the current effect shows nearly the exact tracing of the attack, so you can see where it hits almost perfectly. It may look odd from the first person perspective, but that's just simply to show the tracing... If you look at it from another angle, you'll understand that the attack really is a cone shape, it just bows out in the middle for better hit detection at closer range. Also, the melee secondary is intended to have the swing animation, it's just a lot of work to move the animation over to the Laser model. Additionally in the end, I want to add an energy blade of sorts to the Blaster model which comes out during the animation, so that the melee actually has something to swing. Oh and yes, the attacks will use the color of the player who is firing the weapon... So Red Team has red blasts and melees, while Blue Team has blue blasts and melees. (Similar support for deathmatch game types as well)... That's the goal anyway.
  
• The design is intended to have unlimited ammo, and no charging/cool down in any like, so it is generally pretty simple. Although of course, the balance is preliminary, and can absolutely be changed as necessary... I just have it temporarily set up this way as the prototype, to see if the concept is even viable.
  

Hopefully i'm not forgetting anything... Anyway, you can try out the weapon yourself quite easily though!

• North American players connect to xonotic.bitmissile.org:26000
  
• European players connect to srv02.xonotic.org:26500
  
• Or try it locally with Git by checking out samual/spawn_weapons in the xonotic-data.pk3dir repository.
  

Basically what i'm looking for from you guys right now is a general feel for the attitude of the community towards this concept. I don't want you to focus on the specifics unless you have suggestions, but rather I want to know if I should even continue working on this weapon concept or if I should abandon it. Understand that, I don't want to invest more time into a concept which is just going to be rejected in the end anyway. Please, don't reject this idea because you feel it is currently imbalanced, but rather give it a try and ask yourself if you think it can be improved and made into something as part of the core of the game. Do you like it? Is it just okay with you? Or is it unacceptable to you? Answer in the polls and in replies to these questions, and spread the thread around so I can get as much input as possible. Thank you, and happy fragging!


P.S.: I started a new thread because I figured posting to the old one would just be pointless, it got flooded and any new posts (such as this one) would just be noise on top of the real subject at hand.

UPDATE: Servers are up! with public ports! Feel free to join, the settings are also votable so you can vcall different games types or maps etc.

Well, seems quite complex, if it works almost exactly like Shotgun+Laser it'll be great.

May I just ask, what happens to the time were you had to switch to the laser is gone? Perhaps the movement will turn into super speed'ish?

Samual: I like the concept and the fresh ideas it brings, but ofc I need to test it once the servers are up. I'm not too happy with keeping the melee attack right now, but I was unhappy with melee before, so... Maybe I just have to get used to it

May I just ask, what happens to the time were you had to switch to the laser is gone?

You still would have to switch weapons, wouldn't you? Unless you're gonna use blaster as replacement for nex, rl and so on
Although this could give players that just spawned some advantage (which is a good thing!), since they don't need to switch between their weapons to laserjump.

Well, seems quite complex, if it works almost exactly like Shotgun+Laser it'll be great.

May I just ask, what happens to the time were you had to switch to the laser is gone? Perhaps the movement will turn into super speed'ish?

It sounds complex, but it's quite simple in practice... But, i'm not sure I understand the question? The switch time (animtime) and refire are nearly the same to match with current Laser and Shotgun, so jumping and such will not really be affected at all by this change for the most part.

The "Blaster" weapon will continue to use the new Laser model,

I think that Laser model is too small to use it for fish-slapping, so mabee it should be increased, but everything else is very good.)

The "Blaster" weapon will continue to use the new Laser model,

I think that Laser model is too small to use it for fish-slapping, so mabee it should be increased, but everything else is very good.)

Well, we'll figure something out i'm sure -- again as I said, I planned to add a blade to it perhapsably, so that already solves this issue. Don't worry about details like that for now, that's easy to get done later on ^_^

Samual: I like the concept and the fresh ideas it brings, but ofc I need to test it once the servers are up. I'm not too happy with keeping the melee attack right now, but I was unhappy with melee before, so... Maybe I just have to get used to it

May I just ask, what happens to the time were you had to switch to the laser is gone?

You still would have to switch weapons, wouldn't you? Unless you're gonna use blaster as replacement for nex, rl and so on
Although this could give players that just spawned some advantage (which is a good thing!), since they don't need to switch between their weapons to laserjump.

You may dislike melee, but many other people find it as a necessity. This was just the best compromise I can come up with to "please everyone" ^_^

And no, do not get me wrong, you DO have to switch to the weapon in order to jump. It is exactly like before, and cannot be abused like such.



Servers are up now, so go ahead and try it out!

So, as far as I see it on server, it shoots a hitscan cone for primary. Is damage distributed evenly through the hit area, or is it discrete like shotgun pellets?

I like what has been done with it, the jump hasn't deviated much, if at all, and the blast cone seems to be acceptable.

However I do miss the ability to use the laser at a longish range

So, as far as I see it on server, it shoots a hitscan cone for primary. Is damage distributed evenly through the hit area, or is it discrete like shotgun pellets?

It's sort of distributed closer to the center than the outside -- so, the better your aim is to the center, the more damage it does.... BUT, it's also greatly affected by distance, so it behaves quite a lot like Shotgun pellets do over distance (i.e. less hit so it does less damage over distance).

However I do miss the ability to use the laser at a longish range

Yes, this is the downside... but it is a compromise to make -- I think if you want to do something long range, just pick up a long range weapon then, there are quite a lot of fire modes which can do basically the same thing old laser at long range could do.

The hard thing for me to deal with is hitscan + push. It makes it very easy to juggle people if you have anything resembling decent aim. I'll continue to test with an open mind.

I just thought of something.

If shotgun isn't default anymore, and the slap is now Blaster secondary, can we have the triple shotgun blast back?

Hated the original idea, but love this one. I'll likely jump into one of the servers when I get off of work.

The hard thing for me to deal with is hitscan + push. It makes it very easy to juggle people if you have anything resembling decent aim. I'll continue to test with an open mind.

This can be remedied with some balancing that would make juggling a bit more aim-dependent. Then juggling won't be abused. As for the force, I think its ok (in fact I would make it slightly larger, provided juggling is more aim-dependent).

I think the concept is pretty good. On some fronts its better than the current laser.

How do I connect to a server address manually?

Although this could give players that just spawned some advantage (which is a good thing!), since they don't need to switch between their weapons to laserjump.

You just need to change the weapon priority, I guess.

How do I connect to a server address manually?

In console (Shift+ESC):

Code:

connect <serveradressofopeningpost>

I find the short range of the weapon completely unacceptable. It makes you a sitting duck at range if you have no other weapons.

I am also disappointed at the lack of any ability to juggle other players around. The laser is my favorite weapon in xonotic because of it's ability to disorient your foe.

Perhaps we could keep the current laser primary and have the secondary be a compromise between shotgun/melee as they are both very short range weapons.

I would hate to lose the best weapon in the game.

;_;

Personally I think it is impossible too merge a finisher, damage, juggling, and hitscan all into one thing, and they should be separated, or taken apart.

The most fun thing in the laser is juggling, cause it both takes skill, and does decent damage. Having a hit-scan juggle is unacceptable, taking most of the skill out of it.
And the damage has too be nerfed as well, because it is a hit-scan weapon, which makes the blaster even sillier. You shouldn't try too merge all the functionality together. Instead, just keeping the old laser would be good, and if hit-scan is an absolute must, then add it as a secondary.

Personally I believe we could do without melee altogether, or perhaps, just put it on a dedicated melee weapon, and leave it be. Right now having it on a weapon that pushes people away, is stupid. At least the shotgun is close range on both fronts, so when you get too close, it is acceptable too melee with. But currently the blaster primary and secondary don't work together at all.

But please, for the love of everything, don't add hit-scan juggling

I realize that my wording is fucking awful, so I expect this too get flamed, but if you want more clarification, I'll try too give it too you.
Regardless, just getting my opinion out there.

Finally got around to testing it out. I like it. Needs some obvious refinement to get the feel and effects right, but from a gameplay standpoint this thing is pretty cool. I think more of a shotgun-style effect to make it look like it's firing pellets (think Quake 3/Live's shotgun) of some kind would improve the feel of the gun

...

...

I'll just say I'm glad some people still care about fun! The laser has always been one of my favourites as well, because of juggling.

I had a short test round yesterday, and I have to say that juggling indeed works rather well, with the primary being insta hit and all. Laser jumps work well, too. But having slept a night and thought it over, I fear that the concept will lead to less juggling fun in the end. Because I really see the problem that people with a good aim will push you anywhere, and, to balance the weapon, juggling effect will have to be nerfed to a state that it's barely useful.

Also you cannot even do ANYTHING against someone at long range now before getting a gun. That would allow people to just camp with nex without having to move. How often did I laser sitting nex campers on ffa servers off their camping spot? Now I am supposed to get a Nex or maybe an electro, since mg (what? is someone shooting?), mortar (pathetic, look he/she's trying to throw stuff at me THROW FARTHER IF YOU CAN), rocket launcher (ooh, a tank approaching, I might step to the side...), hagar (wtf are all the explosions around me) and crylink (was unable to make up a line for that one) are not usable at long ranges. This is an issue mainly on open maps (where there are long ranges), and you'll say it's the mapper's fault, but it will break open maps even more.

I see the work you have put into this, Samual (or rather, I estimate it), and I'm really sorry that I have to say that I would prefer the primary fire of the current laser to be kept as it is because of the following reasons:

1. Juggling effect is fun, and with current instahit push this will have to be nerfed to a level where it is no fun at all anymore
   
2. You loose all long range attack possibilities with spawn weapons (no use even TRYING)
   

I also miss the ability to combo weapons without getting a gun (I use laser/shotgun combo a lot). Especially in TDM matches I find it difficult to get a gun and often am forced to rely on shotgun and laser. This setup would make me and other less experienced players even easier kills when freshly spawned. I'd predict this to move competitive gameplay towards more spawn kills than it already is.

Last but not least I still am not convinced (but I'm stubborn, I admit) about the necessity of the merging. But I'm also not very responsive to logical explanations such as "why should only shotgun slap" in the face of rocket jumps and rocket ammo being used for mortar, hagar and rocket launcher. Or wall climbing with hagar. Or strafe jumping. Or ramp jumping. Or air control.

I wish I was able to like it better

You loose all long range attack possibilities with spawn weapons (no use even TRYING)

Yes.

Actually, if mg gets phased out from core set, that will leave us with very few long range weapons (only nex, and MAYBE rl, if you have unholy aim).

Though laser primary isn't exactly accurate long range weapon either.

I'm fine with that new spawn weapon, but above is probably sth to consider.

Peronsally I think it would be better just adding the melee to the existing laser, and buff it's damage slightly. Then we could make the Shotgun more powerful and have it with the core-weapons.

Some things that come to my mind after testing the new spawn weapon:
- laserjumping works as before
- it is impossible to miss shots with the primary, even on long range (ok not on greatwall but on the very most duel/ffa maps)
- hitscan juggling is just stupid (unless you make it hard to aim), I don't want to imagine how the average ffa match will look like
- I know that melee attack has fans but think of this: with the current antilag system it will always be broken to some degree and it seems just wrong to me to implement something that is broken by design
- The gun will be abused by decent aimers. A lot.

I know you will probably hate me for this but why not go for a simple solutions instead, e.g.: primary is old laser, secondary is insta-hit triple fire with the new energy beam (but make it tighter and harder to aim and less/no juggling) and 20dmg per shot, similar to Nexuiz sg secondary.

I think the less/no juggling, if in comparison to current laser primary, is not a good idea, but in comparison to the current proposal, yes. Otherwise I agree, old laser primary on primary, and secondary some melee idea, that would be good. Shotgun as core weapon is fine for me, too, though it will make my life a lot more difficult and frustrating in tdm.