balanceFruit.cfg

@LeeStricklin:
Or rather, why is it more useless than it used to be?

Instead of the combo exploding with a delay (projectile) it explodes immediately (hitscan).

Maybe this problem can be fixed if you would care to mention wtf it is.

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Merged TAG+Hagar anyone?

Do want.
Merge the HLAC into this new weapon as well.

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@FruitieX: Did you have a good vacation in Florida?

Definitely.

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electro: no xD (really cant reconcile loosing the old primary, and i did really try). Primary to powerfully in experienced hands

Then it just needs nerfing. But it feels very weak already, although admittedly I do not use an aimbot.

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Crylink: secondary: useless/duplicate (see below)

We should maybe make this more similar to what the Nexuiz secondary crylink was, but with the addition of our link join feature (as on primary).

HLAC: primary decent, secondary decent. overall uninteresting gun now (see below)

Hagar: Spamfactory with capital S. Not necessarily bad but i do feel it takes less skill and roe luck to frag with. Secondary fairly pointless compared to crylink prim.

...

T.A.G. Primary fires to many rockets, Secondary is fucked up again (its supposed to be anti missile!).

How about merging all of these?

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Rifle: Horrible switchdelay. i really H A T E it.

Something has to make it bad to use in close combat. Without the switch delay people would just make insane combos with it.
Inverse damage falloff? It just wouldn't make sense though.
If we remove this 'feature' then we should remove the Rifle as well, because it will be another Nex. Just as we should remove some other redundant weapons (see above).

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Does rockets have a shedload of health? Dosent seem like they blow up by by eg mortar fire anymore.

This was unpredictable and just bullshit.

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And I disagree with the "camping rifle philosophy"; better make it usable in combos and tune the damage to reflect this.

Then we have another Nex, without charging. See above.

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yes, MG a bit stronger and Hagar a bit weaker.

Ok on the MG part, will test tomorrow.

Still think we should merge the Hagar with HLAC and Tag

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I've recently seen Fruitiex recommend using the rifle instead of the nex

I recommend using the Sniper Rifle in long range fights, and the Nex in close-medium range fights.

and just having the nex removed all together due to it being too hard to balance.

No.

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The Rifle's secondary has been met negatively by all players I've seen, I think this requires some rewriting. Perhaps the clip reload could be put here

WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THIS BEFORE
Best idea ever. I HATE that extra reload button that is only useful for ONE weapon, where the hell do I put it with all my weapon binds around the movement keys already?

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I hope that much text is manageable and that people will start thinking about how to incorporate both the old Electro primary and the new one, instead of just promoting their favorite. +1 for tZork here.

tZork and I discussed an interesting idea earlier on IRC: Combining both into the same weapon/primary slot. Upon firing the weapon you get both the old electro projectile and the new electro beam, and if you keep holding the primary button pressed down for a couple frames the electro projectile is destroyed. If you however release the primary button (i.e. just click it) only the projectile continues to exist. Wouldn't really allow you to "combine" them for an advantage either, due to the fact that you have to lead the electro projectile, but not the beam.

I would totally agree with this

So we then turn the electro into a 3 weapon, weapon. When some people already say it's too strong, make's zero sense to me but try it if you must I'll atleast try it out.

So we then turn the electro into a 3 weapon, weapon. When some people already say it's too strong, make's zero sense to me but try it if you must I'll atleast try it out.

If done right it shouldn't become any stronger. You would basically have to choose from either projectile or beam, not both (only very very little)

I'm still confused how it's going to work

A toggle key to swap between the fire mode's sounds like a better idea.

Electro/Lightning gun:
Exploding projectiles seem like they would be better than what they are now, but it just isn't the same as popping a few shots out and then setting them off from across a room as an opponent tries to go through a door way. Adding lightning to this weapon while retaining the original firing modes would seriously complicate this gun. Maybe making the laser similar to the one in Perfect Dark (N64/XBLA, primary acted very much like the current minus splash damage and the secondary emitted a shorter-range constant damage beam) would be a good way to implement a similar function without wrecking another weapon. If this is done, then the laser would have a true secondary fire and since the lightning gun wasn't really the most useful all-out fighting weapon anyway (more of a finisher), it can have unlimited ammo.

Crylink:
I actually experimented with the link function for a secondary on the crylink and couldn't get it quite right. Hopefully you'll have better luck doing so than I did, because it seems like a neat function to add and would kick a lot of ass if done right.

Rifle:
The reload as secondary fire seems like a good idea for the rifle as well, though it would be pretty much impossible to retain any panic-fire function if that's implemented. Maybe if the rifle is set up so that you have to manually fire each shot (you can't just hold mouse 1 down to fire repeatedly) and set it so that if you fire it at a certain rate that the damage will switch to what is set to secondary (hopefully you can make sense out of what I just tried typing). Also unlike the other precision weapon, this is not hit scan, so gearing it to shorter ranges than the nex makes more sense. Also, FIX THE DAMN SWITCH DELAY! RAWR!1!!one!

Nex/BFRG99999:
The problem with gearing the nex to short or medium ranges is that it is a hit scan weapon that hits EXACTLY where it's aimed. Doesn't make much sense for such a weapon to be good at those ranges, especially since the rifle isn't hit scan and more resembles a carbine than a big boy rifle like the nex. if it's made more powerful for close ranges then it will either be overpowered due to it's long range capability, or frustrating as hell for players if damage fall off (which SUCKS) is implemented.

Weapon mergings:
For the most part don't like the idea. In my opinion the HLAC can still be made it's own weapon as can the hagar and TAG. The TAG especially is more of a special weapon that used very little and will probably better suit anti-vehicular roles if/when we get those in the game. The only DM map I've seen that's properly placed this gun was Red Planet which is a rather obscure (and good) map. The HLAC under my config was geared mostly as a heavy offensive weapon for storming opponents at close-medium range while the hagar was best used to either make someone panic, pin them to a wall, or finish them off.

Hahahahahahaha.

)))

Playing a 1v1 with a bot (spawn killing + bot getting stuck) proves really that Nex is superduperweapon in FruitieX' balance. [/irony] Play on a server with DM (or something similar running) at Stormkeep or so and you won't be able to do that.

Actually after playing some CTF pickups (which FruitieX' balance) I had much more fun that I ever had in Nexuiz. Good teamplay was actually required (No "Come in base, grab flag, run, capture in 5 secs") (teamplay lolwutizdiz!).
FruitieX' balance +1!!11

I know this is an older post, but who reads the most recent ones . Anyways, Mirio makes a solid point. Keeping the nex like it is forces CTF players to work as a team. Speedruns shouldn't be the only goal of CTF, which was a MAJOR problem in Nexuiz. This prevents that. The solution? Remove the nex from DM, replacing it with the camping rifle. That way, the team balancing weapon(Nex) is only used in the team related gametype.

*Implying I've never played online*

Rifle:
The reload as secondary fire seems like a good idea for the rifle as well, though it would be pretty much impossible to retain any panic-fire function if that's implemented.

I don't give a damn. There's a Uzi for that.

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Rifle:
Also, FIX THE DAMN SWITCH DELAY! RAWR!1!!one!

Then we should just remove the Rifle. Or come up with something better that fixes this problem: Fire Rifle, get insane amount of damage, switch to another weapon in less than half a second [and then switch back again for the same insane damage, unlike current Nex]. (UNACCEPTABLY OVERPOWERED in combos!)

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Nex/BFRG99999:
...
if it's made more powerful for close ranges then it will either be overpowered ...

And yet it's got a lower DPS than the Rifle, ESPECIALLY now that the "red ring"/battery of the Nex depletes faster. You can't just keep firing and firing and get powerful shots.

Rifle:
-Headshot: 120 DPS (can be sustained for as long as you have ammo)
-Bodyshot: 60 DPS (can be sustained for as long as you have ammo)

Nex:
-Fully charged shots at the refire rate: 90 DPS (ALREADY THEORETICALLY IMPOSSIBLE)
-Holding primary and secondary: roughly 65 DPS (can only be sustained for roughly 2.2 seconds, which allows two charged shots)
-Holding secondary, firing when fully charged: roughly 65.5 DPS (this is the maximum DPS you can get out of the Nex btw, but as you can see it's not very different from the above and you have to time it VERY well, can only be sustained for 2.5 seconds, which allows two and a half charged shots)
-Holding primary: 45 DPS (can be sustained as long as you have ammo)
Assuming that my calculations are right, of course xD

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Rifle:
...
Also unlike the other precision weapon, this is not hit scan

Afaik this is very very unnoticeable. You won't really have to lead your shot horizontally due to the very fast projectile speed. On the other hand a headshot will be more difficult to land at distance, since you have to aim a bit higher up than where the head actually is. Also it IS antilagged somehow, iirc. Feels quite usable at semi-high pings, which it absolutely wouldn't be without antilag.

Code:

set g_balance_sniperrifle_primary_speed 40000

I know this is an older post, but who reads the most recent ones . Anyways, Mirio makes a solid point. Keeping the nex like it is forces CTF players to work as a team. Speedruns shouldn't be the only goal of CTF, which was a MAJOR problem in Nexuiz. This prevents that. The solution? Remove the nex from DM, replacing it with the camping rifle. That way, the team balancing weapon(Nex) is only used in the team related gametype.

Why put a long range weapon into a mainly close range environment, and vice versa for the close/medium weapon?

I know this is an older post, but who reads the most recent ones . Anyways, Mirio makes a solid point. Keeping the nex like it is forces CTF players to work as a team. Speedruns shouldn't be the only goal of CTF, which was a MAJOR problem in Nexuiz. This prevents that. The solution? Remove the nex from DM, replacing it with the camping rifle. That way, the team balancing weapon(Nex) is only used in the team related gametype.

Why put a long range weapon into a mainly close range environment, and vice versa for the close/medium weapon?

Especially since the nex is hit scan, easier to hit with, and the charge when implemented right can make it really hard to use for close range, since your probably not going to get it fully charged when someone is fast approaching you. The rifle is not hit scan and is harder to hit with (especially online) and isn't as effective at long ranges due to how it's made (see not hit scan, bullet has to travel).

Does rockets have a shedload of health? Dosent seem like they blow up by by eg mortar fire anymore.

This was unpredictable and just bullshit.

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You mean the blowing up of rockets by other ammo? I completely disagree. Its a very good feature from the Nexuiz legacy that sets the game apart from similar games and adds depth to game play. Its unpredictable how exactly? If you foe spam rockets you have a chase to make him eat hes spam by dropping some nads in front of him. How it that random and bullshit? Its easy to see why some ppl consider the game to be heading in a q3/live clone direction when funny / different things are getting removed for the sake of more pro game-play.

I'm a tiny bit against the current nex charging mechanics too: why cant it just charge up once and leave it charged as it is? (until you shoot it of course) 90 damage and a little buzzling sound so we know its charged and people hear us approaching. It could consume 10 ammo as exchange.
People in close range intensive fight will use nex like Shock Rifle anyways, but on the other part at least moving around with a charged nex wouldnt be as frustrating as it is now. It just completely draws the attention, or maybe its just me, but I find it really frustrating, that I have to keep watching that circle around the crosshair while moving around to maintain full charge just for one hit-or-miss shot.

I also agree that the rocket launcher explosion animation size doesnt represent how much smaller the radius is at all.

Just charge it once and only tab right click constantly; hit -> finish with RL or so - or miss -> run or fight hard. Easy.

Why put a long range weapon into a mainly close range environment, and vice versa for the close/medium weapon?

Especially since the nex is hit scan, easier to hit with, and the charge when implemented right can make it really hard to use for close range, since your probably not going to get it fully charged when someone is fast approaching you. The rifle is not hit scan and is harder to hit with (especially online) and isn't as effective at long ranges due to how it's made (see not hit scan, bullet has to travel).

That's not particularly relevant to my point. Put it this way: why should a weapon, which is specifically designed to be a long range weapon, replace a medium range weapon in an environment that results in mainly close range combat (i.e. all dm maps) and vice versa?

Besides, can you honestly say that you can tell that the rifle isn't hitscan just from normal gameplay?

I'm a tiny bit against the current nex charging mechanics too: why cant it just charge up once and leave it charged as it is? 90 damage and a little buzzling sound so we know its charged and people hear us approaching. It could consume 10 ammo as exchange and charge for a tiny tiny tiny bit longer.

I don't agree 100% with the charging thing too, but I don't think this is the best way to go either. It would just make the nex much easier to use - you only have to worry about charging for a few second, then you'd be free to use other weapons and pull out the nex when you want to and dish out 90 damage!

I've always found the rifle easier for me to use in medium-long ranges because it always had some kind of delay in the shot for me (I'm actually a bad shot with hit-scan weapons). The nex on the other hand has worked for longer ranges because the only delay it had depended on what your ping was. Yes I can tell the difference between the nex shot and the rifle shot, also it makes more sense for a heavier weapon with a bigger trail to be geared towards longer ranges, especially since the nex trail is easier to follow than the rifle one.

Try landing this shot with a rifle:


Unless your a really crazy player jacked up on some serious caffeine, chances are you wouldn't be able to land this with a non-hitscan weapon. On top of that IF you did land it, the player who got hit would have a hard time finding where the shot came from because of the low visibility rifle trail VS the nex's extremely visible trail. The rifle also is best for stop and pop due to it being necessary to reload and the nex is more suited for long range because it does the most damage when charged and charging it is similar to pulling back on a bow. Your not going to want to try to charge a weapon when your being rushed, but you'll do that if you know you can attack from a safe distance.

Does rockets have a shedload of health? Dosent seem like they blow up by by eg mortar fire anymore.

This was unpredictable and just bullshit.

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You mean the blowing up of rockets by other ammo? I completely disagree. Its a very good feature from the Nexuiz legacy that sets the game apart from similar games and adds depth to game play. Its unpredictable how exactly? If you foe spam rockets you have a chase to make him eat hes spam by dropping some nads in front of him. How it that random and bullshit? Its easy to see why some ppl consider the game to be heading in a q3/live clone direction when funny / different things are getting removed for the sake of more pro game-play.

How exactly can it NOT be unpredictable if you're being shot from all directions around you in a Deathmatch? Just don't use a RL in DM? Ew, annoying!

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I've always found the rifle easier for me to use in medium-long ranges because it always had some kind of delay in the shot for me (I'm actually a bad shot with hit-scan weapons).

As far as I know, aiming directly at the target has always resulted in a hit for me. I've never tried to lead my aim or anything, even at very fast, rocketjumping players in Clan Arena

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The nex on the other hand has worked for longer ranges because the only delay it had depended on what your ping was.

Wrong. Only the effects depend on your ping, if your crosshair is on your target when you fire, you get a hit. (Antilag)

I've always had to lead a target on Frozen Colors when I used a rifle. The nex I've only had to lead a shot when my ping was high (it would basically take a bit to actually fire on my end).

I'm a tiny bit against the current nex charging mechanics too: why cant it just charge up once and leave it charged as it is? (until you shoot it of course) 90 damage and a little buzzling sound so we know its charged and people hear us approaching. It could consume 10 ammo as exchange.
People in close range intensive fight will use nex like Shock Rifle anyways, but on the other part at least moving around with a charged nex wouldnt be as frustrating as it is now. It just completely draws the attention, or maybe its just me, but I find it really frustrating, that I have to keep watching that circle around the crosshair while moving around to maintain full charge just for one hit-or-miss shot.

I assure you, FraNcoTirAdoR, that you will very quickly get this into your cerebellum. This is just the sort of thing that, once you played a little, becomes part of your "instinctive" playing techniques, you'll do it without even noticing. Of course, at first you need to check every now and then on the charging status of the Nex, but after a while you won't need to pay any attention to it as your cerebellum does it for you.

I haven't played much yet, but I can say I don't really knowingly charge the nex anymore, it just happens the moment I get the gun. And I don't think my cerebellum is a quick learner :oP


As for the "detonate rockets with mortar right in your face" I agree with tZork that this was part of gameplay tactics (at least it was for me). It was difficult but rewarding to do, and made using the rocket launcher more challenging depending on what the opponent is equipped with. I think it added to the tactical aspect of gameplay.

For me it was pretty much more random then skill I have to be honest. The amount of time's a rocket had left my gun and travelled partly, then blown up by a mortar and me suffering instant death from 150/100 was a regular occurance.

Probably the most frustrating thing, I hated it 100% in nexuiz, it was not skill i'm sorry to say, you may be able to time some but for the most part it was luck.

Yeah I do have to agree it was more luck than skill and it's not something a new or even some experienced would think to do. Funny as hell though if you watch it happen to one of your opponents repeatedly. I'm not sure, but I think it's still possible to cause rockets to blow up in someone's face under my config. Don't know whether or not it should stay in either config though.

Electro solution to test. Hitscan explosive projectile...see the gauss in Halo2/3 for example. The projectile hits the target instantly and explodes with the same push and damage as the electro, or slightly less, making it a low damage easier to use version of the rocket launcher.

I can't believe I'm actually involving myself in a balance thread

As to the Nex/Rifle controversy, I think we just need to decide which is going to be the long-range sniper weapon and which is going to be the middle-short range, powerful but hard to aim weapon. As soon as we decide, we just gear each weapon toward that. I prefer the Rifle for short range headshots currently, but I can understand if you want to make it the sniper weapon.

I had a revolutionary idea for the Electro, but I don't know if it's code-able. What if you could press right mouse button for shaft, left mouse button for spam balls, and BOTH for old-style pulse? We could add more fire modes to other weapons as well if this works. Hitscan explosive also sounds cool.

I think the HLAC is pretty good as is, but merging the TAG Seeker and Hagar might be okay as long as you realize that it's going to become quite powerful.

For me it was pretty much more random then skill I have to be honest. The amount of time's a rocket had left my gun and travelled partly, then blown up by a mortar and me suffering instant death from 150/100 was a regular occurance.

Probably the most frustrating thing, I hated it 100% in nexuiz, it was not skill i'm sorry to say, you may be able to time some but for the most part it was luck.

:o( I often tried to time my mortar grenades, but maybe it's not really doable on a competitive skill level since you need to wait a bit to get the timing right and on a competitive level you'd be dead by then most probably. On my skill level I think it's possible to time it right, since you don't die equally quickly.

I don't know, if it adds too much of randomness to the game then ok let it go. It's not a feature I particularly need onboard, even though it made using the rocket launcher a bit more dangerous and, in a way, balanced the weapon thereby.

I think the HLAC is pretty good as is, but merging the TAG Seeker and Hagar might be okay as long as you realize that it's going to become quite powerful.

Yeah I think HLAC is sorta okey, it has a nice model too, and its secondary is cool for some crazy jumps, it would make more sense to merge two weapons using the same type of ammo anyways.(TAG+Hagar)
Hagar secondary is not too unique comparing to the new crylink and its great features.
TAG secondary... lol i cant imagine anyone who sees a rocket flying torwards him pulling out the TAG so he survives it. TAG vs TAG fights are also rare... But its primary is just huuuge fun, and quite powerful in good hands --> there are 2 good features (hagar primary spam, tag primary) and 2 hardly ever usable, why do we need +1 addition weapon then? There are already waaaay to many guns, and I'm sure everyone agrees with that (there are like 18-20 weapons now?)

Yes, it would NEED rebalancing, but Xonotic is a new game, now there is chance to experiment with new features, optmize weapons and their numbers etc... If you make "Tagar" tracer dart consume 3-5 ammo it wont be way too powerful. Another solution is to give it ammo cap on 50, problems solved.

(there are like 18-20 weapons now?)

14 + Port-O , Hook and Tuba.

About ammo cap thing. Can we fix that? At least for public (especially team games) games.
Problem: If I e.g. have 150 cells already, I can still pick up cells like fuck (and the weapons!). I would adapt it to the health system, which does not allow you to pick up everything. So if you have "full ammo" you can't pick up that ammo type/weapons that use it anymore. And/or disallow to pick up a weapon that you hold already.
In 1v1 (non public) I would obviously allow to pick up the stuff, cause that belongs to map control. In team games it could stay, though we played with 5 seconds respawn (or weaponstay in Assault) in pickups anyway (so they are weapons fore everyone).