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Improving current balance (aka FruitieX's balance)

(02-16-2011, 01:50 PM)Samual Wrote: Regardless, I don't think there's any real issue with my health balance right now. But again, if it REALLY IS broken, it will be changed. -- However, to me the current default health system is clearly broken... So it probably will never be changed back to that (Not with inconsistent caps anyway) either if that's the case... It also will never go back to limitless like in Nexuiz... So we'll see what ends up -- it'll probably be a compromise between current health balance and my health balance.

You use 10 for the small healts and armours right? That breaks almost every map, cause they usually should be and are designed to the current default balance (or Nexuiz) and got a lot of small HPs/As. And to 'fix' tons of maps is just much more work than leave it to 5, which works (and worked in Nexuiz) just fine. Also you would get 250/200 way to fast then.
Keep it to 5, 25, 50 and 100.

Samual Wrote:"P.S Why is dance always used as this like comparison tool to any setting changed to try to show something works." -- In this case I used it to explain why default health balance sucks with low caps, that's all. Why did I pick on dance? Because it's true and everyone knows the map.
Actually Dance got a lot of small healths and armours so you can get much HP/A pretty fast. Wink
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The reason the cap on my system is so freaking high is to avoid breaking the maps, I tried to get a health average per player kinda close to what it was in Nexuiz while getting rid of the spawn rapes.
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Spawn rapes are part of the game!!! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
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A possible compromise (don't freak out, it actually might work better than both extremes).

• Health cap 200 or 250, armor cap 200
• Shards and small units back to 5, so we won't have to remake tons of maps
• Stable between 100 and 150
• Slightly more rot than 0.1 balance

Personally I like the stability between 100 and 150 that Samual introduced, also I've always wished for universal cap for all size units. I think it's mainly the mapper's faults for placing rows of small units, but I do realize that it would be a lot of work to change them, so I think we should try the above balance before we decide about changing them to 10.

I never got why the armor cap was lower than health, since armor only blocks a percentage you have to have more to do anything (especially with it down to 0.6).

Now I'm tempted to go and make my own balance Smile
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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@ nowego4

I'll try screwing around with that and see what it does under mine and this config. Also, insta-flame for even thinking about doing another balance Tongue actually I don't care if more people try balancing the game, that just ups the chances of us finding something that works.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


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me wonders if nerds actually read what i had put.....

me assumes they to scared too say sumthink.....


t?


:^
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Chooksta sucks...me wonders if that nerd will read what I put Big Grin

I spoke to Samual last night and he suggested to cap armour at 100, which make's sense considering now that maps use 25/50/100 much more now and that the newer maps (TDM/DM) tend to only come with 100a and 2x50a for example.

Still Samual, if you have 100armour, that means you can't pick up any more armour on top, or you can pick up armour but it won't add onto over 100, which do you think would be the best way, so you either can't pick up any over 100a, or you can still pick it up but it won't add on anymore if you already are at the max.
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me reads kojn :p

(i sux... like a fox!)

yer keep armour at 100 then , maybe leave health to a max of 150 , that way a flag stealer can do a good run , but still leave a chance or two for the guys trying to get it back.

problem solved , next!

er
next problem!

:^
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@Samual: How are the caps inconsistent? How will you prevent people from hogging every single item they see?
(02-16-2011, 04:45 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: The reason the cap on my system is so freaking high is to avoid breaking the maps, I tried to get a health average per player kinda close to what it was in Nexuiz while getting rid of the spawn rapes.

Face it, 98% of all Nexuiz maps ARE BROKEN ANYWAY and WILL need recompiling due to bad design and/or missing textures, and while someone does that they can just as well quickly adapt item layouts to the various improvements Xonotic has had over Nexuiz.

This has been said before and I'll remind you of it again: There is no point in trying to "avoid breaking the [Nexuiz] maps". Compatibility to Nexuiz was not part of the project's goals.
(02-16-2011, 01:50 PM)Samual Wrote: "Why can't I pick up this health?"
Because you are too stacked.

You should understand what kind of health you can pick up when after a short while of playing.
(02-16-2011, 06:37 PM)nowego4 Wrote: Now I'm tempted to go and make my own balance Smile

do eet, we need moar balances

actually why don't we just introduce a new default gamemode where you're supposed to balance the weapons and rename the game to "The Balancing Game"
:p
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(02-17-2011, 08:44 AM)kojn^ Wrote: I spoke to Samual last night and he suggested to cap armour at 100, which make's sense considering now that maps use 25/50/100 much more now and that the newer maps (TDM/DM) tend to only come with 100a and 2x50a for example.

Still Samual, if you have 100armour, that means you can't pick up any more armour on top, or you can pick up armour but it won't add onto over 100, which do you think would be the best way, so you either can't pick up any over 100a, or you can still pick it up but it won't add on anymore if you already are at the max.

Personally, the ideal system would be if the megas were the only items that would allow you to go over the limit (100?), it would make them extra special, since they're called "mega" items it makes sense to me. So any other health packs or armor would stop at 100, and megas for up to.. 200? Anway, that's just me, I like to have important items on maps that you need to control. If you just pick up random shards to do the same, megas are kinda useless.
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@ nifrek

You may be on to something, assuming that mappers place them correctly, megas can act as Xonotic's equivalent to the big keg o health or Quake III's mega health.


@ Fruitiex
Your form of adapting would get rid of the gameplay that the mapper originally intended and from what I've seen you post on here destroy or eliminate open maps, especially if they have to be adjusted for that over-powered nex (hits at least as hard as 2.5's, movement more predictable, lower health and armor average per player... you do the math) in your config, don't even bring up the replace it with the rifle argument, that's an entirely different type of weapon with a different feel and usage.
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(02-17-2011, 04:42 PM)FruitieX Wrote: actually why don't we just introduce a new default gamemode where you're supposed to balance the weapons and rename the game to "The Balancing Game"
:p

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1444 Big Grin
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(02-17-2011, 10:44 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: that over-powered nex

As I demonstrated in another balance thread quite a while ago, the Nex is actually pretty damn weak (I'm not entirely sure, but it might even have been nerfed further from when I calculated this)

FruitieX Wrote:Nex:
-Holding primary and secondary: roughly 65 DPS (can only be sustained for roughly 2.2 seconds, which allows two charged shots)
-Holding secondary, firing when fully charged: roughly 65.5 DPS (this is the maximum DPS you can get out of the Nex btw, but as you can see it's not very different from the above and you have to time it VERY well, can only be sustained for 2.5 seconds, which allows two and a half charged shots)
-Holding primary: 45 DPS (can be sustained as long as you have ammo)
65 DPS! And that would be from hitting every single shot with +attack held down. Plus it can only be sustained for roughly 2.5 seconds, after which the DPS drops to 45, so the real DPS is probably somewhere around 50!.
(02-17-2011, 06:19 PM)nifrek Wrote: Personally, the ideal system would be if the megas were the only items that would allow you to go over the limit (100?), it would make them extra special, since they're called "mega" items it makes sense to me. So any other health packs or armor would stop at 100, and megas for up to.. 200? Anway, that's just me, I like to have important items on maps that you need to control. If you just pick up random shards to do the same, megas are kinda useless.

Sure, this is a good idea too.
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right , next problem!

NEXT!

btw , ya got ummmmmmm , only a few days left.
move it !

:p

t

:^
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Who is this clown? xD In the good old Nex days there wasn't anyone like this. Also, I never had to eat chips when reading threads.

I agree with Fruitiex that Xonotic is a NEW game, and maintaining any compatibility between Nex and Xon maps is not part of the trade (remember that the mapper won't have all that much work to do to actually make it compatible). During Nexuiz's evolution, there have also been so many actually bad maps around, some of which, for obscure reasons, were fancied by FFA players. Breaking compatibility at least will result in these maps vanishing for a little while Tongue
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Agree with FruitieX and Green`Marine on the nexuiz maps with Xonotic, sorry you dislike this Lee, but ask someone too or make a re-make of the map's you liked in nexuiz yourself, Xonotic is a new future.

@Nifrek, thats actually a really smart and simple idea, so i'd definitely +1 for that,

Samual, you too?

Also, the machinegun is the most crappiest weapon about, It just feels useless in it's primrary use like in nexuiz, at the moment it's either Ok at super super close range then anything out of that it just becomes really terrible.

Samual, would you be willing to give tZork's old primary MG settings a go? (tZork knows what I'm on about).
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(02-18-2011, 07:24 AM)kojn^ Wrote: @Nifrek, thats actually a really smart and simple idea, so i'd definitely +1 for that,

I'd like to report that I have the strong feeling that megas did get WAAAY more important already in duel due to not being able to pick up +25 items and so on. I noticed that even against a definitely stronger player I managed to get control of the megas once and really stood a chance, but once I loose control over the megas I can't even score a single frag anymore - not to think of regaining control. In Nexuiz days I managed to score at least SOME frags against definitely stronger players (like 40:3 or so against nsb|dim), but nowadays I feel that the player controlling the megas is really invincible.

That's why I would oppose making the megas the only "stackable" items, or to find another solution that makes the megas less dominant for the gameplay. I know mega control IS an important aspect of the gameplay and it should stay that way, but you need to keep in mind that there should be chances to FIGHT over mega control too.
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Who is this clown? xD In the good old Nex days there wasn't anyone like this. Also, I never had to eat chips when reading threads.

THIS CLOWN ISNT A NERD. (plumber)
AND YET IVE BEEN ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE (oh caps is on...)
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2 years of support , crap tune making.
THE ONLY GAME I HAVE PLAYED SINCE I FOUND IT.
aussie forum support , posting , no real spam , most with actuall content (but lots of laughs)
now with xonotic.org , the community , im here nerd , im here to stay , i got massive respect from and to our community.

those who know me (with deep respect guys, ty) know im 4 real (100%)

im telling it like it is , yes think and discuss , but for f,,k sake nerd arguments about weapon this , nerd that, is only delaying what the community has worked soooooooo hard for.

lets shift to the game , then tweek.

(a day in chookys gaming life : starts cpu , checks forum , starts xonotic (sees noone playing) , quits it , starts n..uiz , sees people there , sighs , but joins in because of all the awesome guys(and girls) , says hello , has fun.)

@green marine WHO THE F,,K ARE YOU? Tongue
(hai , much respect to you sir/madam)

seriously the chat is good about getting it all right and all , but ffs , people (nerds) are starting to nerd fight each other , and that suxs guys , its about the community , not what you personaly want (like rocket flying) , drop the arrougant nerd shit , and lets start playing this.
(aussie guys , THIS MEANS YOU TOO!)

T

er..
t


:^
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ok, now back to topic?
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nah , lets just play the game

Smile


:^
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I know lightning gun is going to get it's own weapon.

But in the meantime in shell balance, can you make the combo stronger, it should do a shedload of damage if you land with it at the moment it doesn't really enough to compensate the degree in difficulty.
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(02-18-2011, 04:22 AM)FruitieX Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 10:44 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: that over-powered nex

As I demonstrated in another balance thread quite a while ago, the Nex is actually pretty damn weak (I'm not entirely sure, but it might even have been nerfed further from when I calculated this)


You have to take into consideration as to how freaking accurate this gun is AND the fact that it's hit scan. Your movement is also more predictable than Nexuiz movement. It should also be noted that this weapon becomes easier to aim with when opponents are too far to accurately hit you with other weapons including the camping rifle. Going airborne on open maps is always suicide when there's a few nexes floating around as well. You also have to take the average health and armor per player into account.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


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(02-19-2011, 05:05 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: You have to take into consideration as to how freaking accurate this gun is AND the fact that it's hit scan. Your movement is also more predictable than Nexuiz movement. It should also be noted that this weapon becomes easier to aim with when opponents are too far to accurately hit you with other weapons including the camping rifle. Going airborne on open maps is always suicide when there's a few nexes floating around as well. You also have to take the average health and armor per player into account.

Yes, so why not just add distance falloff back to the Nex...

Or how else would you propose to fix these issues in long range fights?
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Damage fall off SUCKS!1!!one! Make the weapon harder to use at close ranges, while allowing it's precision nature and charge feature to make an excellent choice for long and extreme ranges. That's what I did, sure you can bitch about it being suicidal to use exclusively (not in a combo though, however you can't combo frequently due to it's slightly longer animtime and unnoticably longer switch time) when fighting in close quarters, but that's exactly what should be expected of a precision weapon. You wouldn't catch me trying to use a sniper rifle at close range in a corridor map in UT99 when I have a flak cannon and ripper in my arsenal. You also wouldn't catch me doing the same with a railgun in Q3A when I have a shotgun, lightning gun, and the gauntlet.
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(02-20-2011, 11:40 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: due to it's slightly longer animtime and unnoticably longer switch time

Samual will notice it.
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