Hiding with the flag in CTF

So I was playing regular CTF on a certain popular NA CTF server last night. We were in Frankishtower14, which is a square map with a tall tower in the center. The on-hand grappling hook was on.

Anyway, I grab the flag in a hail of gunfire and grapple away. I sought refuge atop the giant tower, hoping my teammates could return our flag. Well, after about a minute, the server admin says to "stop hiding". He tells me again after about 30 secs that I will be booted for camping.

Well, I'm not one to cry about dick-head admins, lord knows I've seen enough of them over the years. But this made me wonder, is hiding with the flag considered a "dirty" tactic? I've always considered it to be quite normal, but then again I'm not much of a CTF player.

It's up to the mapper to decide how their map should be played. If the admin doesn't like that the map allows this, the map shouldn't be in the maplist in the first place. Frankishtower is huge, hide-and-seek is to be expected.

Also, you really can't ask a player to expose themself when they have the option not to. I don't think the kicking is fair as long as the hiding isn't abusive. I remember a map that had a leak that would let players to go outside of the map and jump into the void. Hiding the flagcarrier in the infinite void with no chance of return is abuse.

*edited the structure of the post, it looked silly

Oh, how many times ctfsoylent was won by a weaker team just because it had someone that knew the places Can't remember anyone ever complaining.

I wouldn't say it's a 'dirty' tactic but considering everyone elses reduced enjoyment in the game, I wouldn't do it even if the map makes it possible. It is a poor map choice if the number of players cause such a thing to be possible though.

It's a pleasure for me to look for hiding FC's.

Grapplehooking to some far off obscure tower isn't what I would kick someone for (unless done all the time), but a kind reminder that it takes the fun out of CTF games for the rest of the players is fair I think.

Well to be fair, it probably only affects the enjoyment of the other team

But seriously, I don't recall ever playing a CTF game with fairly matched teams where the flag carrier didn't hide, though I'm not talking about getting out of the map or anything. I can see how it would be annoying though, if the game comes down to whoever can hide the best.

But actually this brings up another question which I am not sure is intentional or not:

In Xonotic's CTF (as compared to other games) you will rarely have the situation that the flag isn't out of your base, and captures usually are done either extremely fast after a previous capture (with people already waiting in the enemies base to pick up the respawned flag), or it is a game of who hides best, or who kills the enemy flag-carrier first so that your flag-carrier can score.

I guess it is mostly due to map-design (very open flag positions) and the extremely fast movement, but I am not sure I really like playing CTF like that.

But actually this brings up another question which I am not sure is intentional or not:

In Xonotic's CTF (as compared to other games) you will rarely have the situation that the flag isn't out of your base, and captures usually are done either extremely fast after a previous capture (with people already waiting in the enemies base to pick up the respawned flag), or it is a game of who hides best, or who kills the enemy flag-carrier first so that your flag-carrier can score.

I guess it is mostly due to map-design (very open flag positions) and the extremely fast movement, but I am not sure I really like playing CTF like that.

I'm not very fond of CTF period, but I see your point. The CTF is very fast, so it really does come down to a quick cap after a return almost every time. Not sure about high levels of play though

There is a way to prevent this: Defend your flag.

You always have to (in publics) understand what your teammates are doing and if you notice that no one is defending -> do it.
It's possible to attack and return your flag (if you hold the enemy flag) of course if you are skilled (in public games).

But being fast is obviously a key aspect of CTF (and this game in general imo) if you are going to attack or trying to catch the Flag Carrier.

Private/High level games are different of course, because you talk (i.e. 5vs5) about the positions (attack, middle, defence) with your teammates before the games starts.

This is a 5v5 match (with overtime, so pretty close) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvgtttDf3t4
I think I started as defender and ended up attacking later.

There is a way to prevent this: Defend your flag.

You always have to (in publics) understand what your teammates are doing and if you notice that no one is defending -> do it.
It's possible to attack and return your flag (if you hold the enemy flag) of course if you are skilled (in public games).

But being fast is obviously a key aspect of CTF (and this game in general imo) if you are going to attack or trying to catch the Flag Carrier.

Private/High level games are different of course, because you talk (i.e. 5vs5) about the positions (attack, middle, defence) with your teammates before the games starts.

This is a 5v5 match (with overtime, so pretty close) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvgtttDf3t4
I think I started as defender and ended up attacking later.

I was there server op was a twit and raging because they where losing
suffice it to say I wont be going back to that server

What would be interesting to see, is a server-option to always highlight your flag, whether carried or not. Hence FC can hide all he wants, but movement becomes essential for survival in that case.

What would be interesting to see, is a server-option to always highlight your flag, whether carried or not. Hence FC can hide all he wants, but movement becomes essential for survival in that case.

well that pretty much sucks all the skill out of the game
what ever happened to people learning the map and learning the possible hiding spots .... we also have anticamp so ... the point is moot

Then you can basically follow the FC through walls, even when they aren't hiding. That sucks.

I'd give it a try... There are a few games that do that too, off the top of my head, Tribes Ascend does it, and works reasonably well for them...

In the end, all it does is reduces the time for flag return. It will still depend on the skill of the fc to survive longest to score the flag.

Tbh - KeyHunt has that function already enabled.
And its gameplay i'd call very close to ctf - so, why not play Keyhunt instead?

There you could test this "i see the carrier" behaviour.

That's stupid - it would be similar to a wallhack.
Everyone would just run after the FC and you can not survive this.

Sless is right, KeyHunt got this and everyone runs after you there already.

You got point, with many players in server, it's hard enough as it is, if everyone knew all the time, where you are, there'd be few caps on servers like Overkill.

I don't why the big fuzz. In Quake2 it was a legitime tactic to grapple yourself to some hiding spot on a map, even if you had the flag.
Learn the map, learn the hiding points, and in case you can't find the enemy flag carrier, search for it in those places. That's all.

I think people are missing the point of what I was saying...

I do not suggest to make the flag indicator a default setting, nor permanent setting.

It was a suggestion directed towards the servers that tend to "ban" flag hiding. And giving them an option to enable flag indicator upon map restart is a good way to not alienate players that are kicked by retarded admins for flag hiding. It will also immediately tell players that this server has flag indicator on, and hence they can make decision whether to keep on playing, or leave for another one.

I don't why the big fuzz. In WW2 it was a legitimate tactic to position yourself to some hiding spot in a village, even if you had a sniper rifle.
Learn to run, learn to hide at the right points, and in case you can't find the enemy, search for him in the church tower. That's all.

Fixed for ya

Sounds like you had a lot of fun back then, but please don't use this as an example to argue against improving a modern game. Afterall if Xonotic was just like Quake2 we could also just play that.

I was just referring to the fact, that back in good'ol Quake2 strogg fragging times we actually KNEW the maps, and had balls to look in dark corners too... maybe there's a flag carrier with a BFG and power amplifier tech powerup lurking

Samual has worked on a couple of solutions for that. iirc:
- FC gets marked by a global waypoint for a limited time if he receives a certain amount of damage within N seconds.
- FC gets marked by a global waypoint if he stops moving (or only moves within a small range) for a time.
There are more, but I cant recall them and neither do I know if he still works on those ideas.

Im not a fan of the global waypoint thing. I would rather see a better use of the radar. If you get within 15 meters or so of the FC, they show up on radar.

That wont really work. A lot of people have radar disabled entirely.