Arena Shooters Are Dead

Machine, please be civil. We don't need that here.

That's why I changed it.

Chillax, machine!, you seem very aggressive in the past time.


>It isn't most important thing, of those that I mentioned, but it seems to me, that casual fps players find projectile weapons too hard to use, unless theese weapons are immensely powerfull (BFG-like powerfull). I agree with the following statement of ZdrytchX:

The other things were obvious and did not need further explantion.

>Quake's RL, GL, PG have little in common with their Xonotic' counterparts. But you still know, how to shoot MG, or RG. You even know how to shoot M4A1 in most games, or Barrett M82, or HK-PSG1, or HK-P30 and even most of Gauss Rifles.

So, would you say, that in near future, all AAA realistic games would use the same stats for the weapons, amount of health, movement and physics?

So, would you say, that in near future, all AAA realistic games would use the same stats for the weapons, amount of health, movement and physics?

The answer is no. I see the point of your question, but still I will not withdraw my statement.

But what IS your statement?

Газпром: мечты не сбываются...


I can not se the point of this conversation, currently it looks like we are waiting for some id-like company to come andd make a good, popular arena shooter. Am i correct?

Conclusion: people had lost faith into open source.

Concluded with a somewhat satisfactory answer.

Conclusion: people had lost faith into open source.

If you look at open source FPS games you will see they are most of the time generic. They mimic commercial titles.

Not really, Xonotic is one of the few more uniqe games. Sure it's a lot like the other twitch shooter games but on the same time it feels completely different while you actually play it.

Evropi is a nice guy, and a fellow Red Eclipse player, but he's said some things I don't agree with at all.


Sure, RE plays like "no other shooter" with it's impulse dynamics, but it's still slower than real arena shooters, and the infinite ammo, lack of items, and fast health regen constrict it to casual players only.
RE also mimics commercial shooters; it's conventional weapon setup brings not much new to the table other than their partially useful secondary fires.

What's more, with the recent changes quin (lead RE dev) has made, like the arena-classic mode switch (you now pick your two loadout weapons in normal dm), RE is leaning way more towards a class-based casual shooter like TF2, which is barely an "arena" shooter in it's own right.


A couple years back, when i left casual QL (I was still in early teens then), i originally intended to start playing xon but could not because of my hardware's limitations.

That's why i became a community member, and eventually a moderator of Red Eclipse; it was the closest I could get at the time. I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought I would, but it's still not the game for me. My mapping style is more item-based, and i get bored out of my mind playing instagib so much. So, i will continue to play xon, and continue to develop (in part) for RE.


xon's auto bunnyhops take a huge step in the right direction by allowing easier accessibility to the speeds needed to play online. What are idiosyncracies (in Evropi's eyes) have become accepted not only by the communities of arena shooters, but by game developers themselves.

They have clearly been accepted by xon's devs as well, as traditional arena mechanics are not only implemented, but made easier to use.
This is an ingenious move, because it keeps the longtime players hooked, while opening up the gates for newcomers to learn the ropes.
Also, xon has varied weapons, with new mechanics such as self-guided rockets, and the inverting crylink spread.
To top it off, the maps/weap models are high quality compared to most FOSS games.


So, I have high hopes for xon to rise in the ranks, maybe to esports (dont forget QL was free, maybe there is hope for some FOSS action ), maybe to casual fame as well.
media outlets like YouTube are unbelievably good platforms for indie/FOSS games to strut their stuff, and i look forward to seeing what we can do.

Conclusion: people had lost faith into open source.

If you look at open source FPS games you will see they are most of the time generic. They mimic commercial titles.

I did not mean that we are not unique, what I ment is that people are waiting for some other people to do the work, instead of doing it themselves, while they have everything they need to implement their requirements for the Rena Shooter they want: The Xonotic.

I think that modern, successful (in terms of market performace) fps should contain the following elements:
- your skill should be transferable between games (almost nonexistient in arena shooters, and especially between slow paced and fast paced shooters);
- your skill should be transferable between maps you don't know well (this sounds like oxymoron in case of arena shooters);
- weapons... you shuld be able to relay on two weapons only. There can be more weapons, but you should be able to pick one and stick with it without being pummeled. Weapons of your choice should be in your hands at the beggining of the match, or be very easly accessible near the spawning point (so easly that person without knowledge about the map can get it);
- speed... the faster game is, the more chaotic it looks for the new players. The more chaotic it looks, it is less appealing for them.
- if game is not realistic, it should be stylish and funky, look at character design in TF2. Models are fun to watch, and whole game looks appealing for modern teenager. Alternative: kick-ass character look from Gears of War series; I belive this scenario is worse, because it targets mostly male audience.
- people like tactical map movement, but it should be the movement you can perform yourself in rl... not rocketjumping above the building. Besides, people don't like weapon jumping much, they prefer to use jetpacks. Weaponjumping is bad for another reason: it force players to use multiple weapons. This is seen as unnecessary complication.
- it is sad, but bunnyhopping and strafejums are ridiculous when you think about them outside the fast-paced-fps-box. BTW Red Elispes jumpy-thing isn't much more reasonable and playable for players from the outside of arena shooters world.
- hitscan weapons GOOD, projectile weapons BAD;

So... successful "arena" shooter should have:
- appealing graphical design, and decent graphics. Design is more important than technical capabilities.
- simple/not complicated arenas;
- wide choice of mostly hitscan weapons, some powerful projectile weapons. Maybe a healing gun.
- weapons should be balanced against each other, player should be able of using one or two all the time.
- quasi-realistic movement, jetpack and limited nitro-speed are allowed, but they need some fuel. No bunnyhopping, strafejuping, weaponjumping and doublejumping bullshit.

tl;dr
We need CoD with kick-ass design, jetpacks, nitro and sci-fi elements.

BTW I never played CoD.

[link to interesting article on this topic]

Cmon man.... you get the fun out of gaming... I don't want it to be realistic! I wanna get out of real life when i join game. Also... a fucking healing gun?! A jet-pack? Write me pussy on my forehead... If you put all those stuff to a plate before a player you just make a idiot friendly game.

Don't get me wrong, your thoughts are awesome for some ripoff commercial game, take money fast and stuff but Xonotic is not about that. What i like about it the most is that it doesn't allow people who don't have enough attention to get into the game and learn it, also it has dedicated servers for people who don't want to laser-jump.

if you don't like it... go play Camper Snipe

Cmon man.... you get the fun out of gaming... I don't want it to be realistic! I wanna get out of real life when i join game.

I entirely agree, so much I'd post all the approval memes that exist if I could.

I never wrote that I wanted to play the game, which I have described. There is a reason, why I play Xonotic even if I don't think, that it will be ever as popular as any of these realistic games. My post was a collection of thoughts on the topic what makes FPS games popular and what is an obstacle in gaining bigger playerbase.

BTW: I agree with you, Pendulla nad Kabogh, more than you two may think.

Hi. I'm called node357 usually. I played Nexuiz. And Doom. I'm not altogether stable, so feel free to disregard this thread.

Arena shooters look dead. There are a handful of them floating around, each with a small die-hard community. They like and are accustomed to the movement style and weapons of each. They don't change games, even though their games lack players.

It occurred to me tonight that a single game could draw the entire small arena shooter community by adopting their features. A game doing this would probably lose much of its identity, but cause a unity of the remaining arena shooter fans.

Xonotic could be the one to do it. Adding the action button from Warsow. This pretty much duplicates the dodging double-tap from UT. The weapons and balance seem to resemble Quake already without tweaking. OA, same story as Quake since it's basically Quake without "assets".

I assumed the ill-fated retail Nexuiz would fail because I saw UT3 fail, despite its technical excellence. There was a lot of money backing UT3, and probably retail Nexuiz, too. Money isn't a factor. The majority of gamers seem more comfortable with slower FPS games like Call of Duty and Battlefield, and the aging Counter-Strike. I was too until I hit my stride with Nexuiz, but even then, my lack of experience prevented me forever from becoming a revered player (not to mention my personality disorders, ahem).

There's no catching up to pro players with experience. Time does it all. No one is catching up, and no one will be satisfied with their progress when the pros are already 10 steps ahead. I believe Xonotic's best hope is not to avertise to the turtle gaming community, but to the remaining existing arena FPS fans. I was unique in wanting to play a game that was too fast and demanding for me, but it's apparent that most modern gamers are not willing to lose all the time and not willing to recondition themselves for faster, simpler games.

I suggest Xonotic include the major features of the other most popular arena shoooters, not so much for the sake of Xonotic itself, but for the survival of the entire genre. I'm sure the Xonotic developers would understand this proposal better than I, since I'm not a programmer or game developer, but I'm sure my idea will make some sense. Arena FPS games are not popular anymore, and any hope for the genre lies in the decisions of those who have the power to keep it alive. I, personally, would like to see at least one of the existing arena shooters have enough of a community to facilititate a busy server at any time. I hope Xonotic can be the game where that happens.

I am in complete agreement, but this will never happen. Games like these are driven by volunteers who make a game that THEY want to play. Suggesting anything otherwise will usually illicit the following response: "fork it", "code it yourself", "why would you want that in this game when you can play game x with those features you requested". And you know what? They're right.

Arena shooters are fragmented for sure, but I firmly believe Xonotic will come out on top — eventually. It may not have every feature x you want, but what game does?

If Xonotic were truly a great game, people would naturally come to it. Perhaps not right away nor en masses, but gradually over time. You can't force it.

I don't understand this thread...

Xonotic is made for a very specific group of gamers, of course it won't appeal to everybody, but why should Xonotic become a game that appeals to more people and lose some of its uniqueness in return for that? It would be quite a waste if you'd ask me.

Not only that, but it would also simply scatter the community, something that is already happening: overkill servers, minsta+hook servers, vanilla servers, competitive servers. Add more special features and there will be a lot more of these groups, that prefer to have feature 'x' enabled and feature 'y' disabled, messing up the identity of the game big-time.

I believe that you answered your own question Archer:
1) Overkill is made for a very specific group of gamers, of course it won't appeal to everybody, but why should it become a gamemode that appeals to more people and lose some of its uniqueness in return for that? It would be quite a waste if you'd ask me.
2) Minsta+Hook is made for a very specific group of gamers, of course it won't appeal to everybody, but why should it become a gamemode that appeals to more people and lose some of its uniqueness in return for that? It would be quite a waste if you'd ask me.
3) Competitive servers are made for a very specific group of gamers, of course they won't appeal to everybody, but why should they become a servers that appeals to more people and lose some of its uniqueness in return for that? It would be quite a waste if you'd ask me.
4) etc....

All of the modes you mentioned are AFAIK part of official Xonotic, people who play Minsta or OK still are playing the same game as players dueling on XPM rules. And yes, I can see your point, I even agree that more gamemode modifications = more scattered community. I also know that specific game mode in specific game, don't equal unique game. But every players has right to choose his or her favourite mode and stick to it.

Creating this modes can be seen as design flaw from the point of community managing, I agree with that. Multiple and totally different gamemodes were O.K. in 2000-2005, when there was a lots of arena shooters players. Today, when playerbase is smaller, fragmentation of fps games creates a lots of dwarf communities in practically every arena shooter.

Alas, I don't have any unequivocal opinion. I see, that a lot of gamemodes provides freedom, and players can choose what suits them best. I see also, that this separate choices lead to... separation.

Sorry for the lack of good point.

Yeah that's what I meant g4spr0m, the fragmentation was my main concern.

But trust me, I tried playing ctf with minsta+hook on one of the servers, and it didn't feel like Xonotic at all, even movement physics were completely different, I couldn't move like I can in default xon.

Xonotic would be my main game if there was anyone online who wasn't playing minsta+hook. The NA duel and vanilla ctf scene was practically dead when I stopped playing(was playing on a POS netbook and I stopped because of the low FPS), but now I have built a new PC that can play most anything on high settings and all I see is minsta+hook across the board. Sure, a vanilla NA match pops up from time to time, but it's just not frequently enough to get my fix and the practice that I definitely need.

As far as the arena fps being dead goes, it sure does look that way. From they way it looks, unless some really ambitious indie developer(that knows what makes for a good arena FPS) comes along on steam, or Epic makes and a killer new Unreal title, we might be out of luck.

BTW, I'm hooked on Forge atm, so that's where I'll be.

I think the main reason young players don't want to learn to play arena shooters, is becauser they have the option to play so many other games to play where they can step in much easier.

When I started playing online in 1997 there was no alternative to playing Q1. So naturally I sucked in the beginning and started getting better over time. Getting better didn't take long though, because this was the only game of it's kind and all my friends played and talked about it. This didn't make me better at the game, but it helped me figure out how to play it. For example I didn't know what FOV was until some friend told me, and I played keyboard only for a long long time...

This is the first big problem, accessability.
You shouldn't have to read a manual and then configure a file for ~ 1 hour in order to start playing. And naturally, if you join a game without doing this, what people do (to you) seems impossible (to you). So you just quit. When I convince one of my friends to try an arena shooter, I tell them the most important cmds first, and setup their config with them.
Quake Live has made a lot of these commands menu options by now, though i don't know what their default setting is. Xonotic is really nice in this regard, because a lot of the default settings are really fine.
I think a proper weapons tutorial would really help arena shooters.

The second problem imo is that the commercialization of the online games market changed gaming culture significantly in the past 4 years.
There was always value in having people play your game online, and thus Valve and Blizzard had interest in improving their games after release and making them less skill dependent (which arguably made some of their titles worse in some regards (CS cough cough... I incidently crossed the patch history from beta to 1.6 today and had bad memories of disabling movement while defusing and bhopping)).
But today companies invest vast amounts of money into the online games market. I overheard two about 20 year olds conversation about price money in LoL f.e.
The whole microtransaction thing, achievements, unlockable in game items, character progression and character unlocks is so present in all successful games today, but most of it can't imo be implemented in shooters in general very well and much less so in arena shooters.

It's just pay to win, and it's much more obvious in a game like Tribes Ascend, which failed horribly afaik, than in LoL.

tl;dr
1. Arena shooters need to be accessible (easy to configure, easy to understand) -> make good options menu and tutorial.
2. There needs to be some kind of progression for the new generation of gamers -> Achievements and Stats are a good start, but maybe reskins of weapon and character (think TF2)

...
I think a proper weapons tutorial would really help arena shooters.
...
tl;dr
1. Arena shooters need to be accessible (easy to configure, easy to understand) -> make good options menu and tutorial.
...

Did you know about http://www.xonotic.org/tag/newbie/ ?

No one wants to read 20 pages to just understand the basics of a fps. Nice effort nevertheless.

I must agree with asyyy. I remember first time playing Nexuiz and starting it up, ofc i wanted to get to know it so i go to single player tab and there was a tutorial level. It was very satisfying and insightful. Xonotic needs that because you will always learn better to screw by using a screwdriver than by reading a 20 page manual on the subject.

By the way, I do not say it is bad at all. New players can use it to look up a certain aspect about the game, but as a full introduction it is too bulky in my opinion.

By the way, I do not say it is bad at all. New players can use it to look up a certain aspect about the game, but as a full introduction it is too bulky in my opinion.

Well I tried to make it as un-bulky as possible, but still you have to read and also you have to find that thing in the first place. A tutorial map/campaign would be very useful indeed.

The only thing I could do in this respect is produce a demo where I explain those things... but that would be via text chat. Is there a possibility to properly sync an audio stream to a demo playback, so I could make a voice recording and have the entire thing as demo people could watch?

A tutorial map where you have to do things yourself is better of course...

I think once the game is finalized people will be more willed to help you. But putting X hours into producing a high quality video tutorial is pointless if it is going to be outdated in a couple of months.