[SUGGESTION] A Simple Conversation

So, kojn messaged me on IRC just a while ago, and we got to talking. It started out as a discussion continued from the physics thread he posted, and branched off to a few other points. I thought I'd share this with you guys.

(Some portions are emboldened by request)

May 23 13:07:06 <kojn> yo
May 23 13:07:36 <kojn> thanks for imput on the thread
May 23 13:07:41 <Chryyz> No problem
May 23 13:07:50 <kojn> do you think the physics are too quick?
May 23 13:07:57 <kojn> I admit with the laser they would be ridiculous
May 23 13:08:13 <Chryyz> For 1v1, it obviously wouldn't affect much
May 23 13:08:22 <kojn> but I think any physics set with the laser is going to have the same problem..not due to the physics but just the fact you will always be able to get crazy speeds.
May 23 13:08:24 <Chryyz> Because DM maps are small and have lots of turns
May 23 13:08:28 <Chryyz> But for CTF, yes
May 23 13:08:44 <kojn> We probably chose the worse map to showcase them on
May 23 13:08:51 <kojn> a nice super big wide open area
May 23 13:09:02 <Chryyz> If Xonotic is supposed to be a new game entirely, the mindset people have for Nexuiz needs to be dropped
May 23 13:09:12 * kojn Halleluja
May 23 13:09:23 <kojn> Why can't people think like that?
May 23 13:09:30 <Chryyz> /shrug
May 23 13:09:49 <kojn> Personally, I just do not want to be playing a game that has not many people playing
May 23 13:09:58 <Chryyz> Ditto
May 23 13:10:11 <kojn> And I do not think a re-hash of nexuiz is going to do this
May 23 13:10:18 <kojn> they were going to change nexuiz bigtime in 2.6 anyway
May 23 13:10:39 <kojn> I agree with you though, CTF is generally a joke at the moment
May 23 13:10:58 <kojn> I do not mind the laser as a weapon
May 23 13:11:11 <Chryyz> In my opinion... Xonotic shouldn't be as aerial as Nexuiz is
May 23 13:11:13 <kojn> but gameplay of any sort especially in CTF goes out the window.
May 23 13:11:22 <kojn> Well, thats one of my keypoints
May 23 13:11:30 <Chryyz> Trickjumping and such are fine, but rocketing and lasering 200 ft into the air is retarded
May 23 13:12:17 <Chryyz> You notice all the people that used to play on the jetpack server, simply because they didn't like lasering and rocketing anyway
May 23 13:12:36 <Chryyz> If everyone's grounded for the most part, I'm sure they won't feel as alienated as they do
May 23 13:13:06 <kojn> yea but then it comes back to what you said
May 23 13:13:10 <kojn> <Chryyz> If Xonotic is supposed to be a new game entirely, the mindset people have for Nexuiz needs to be dropped
May 23 13:13:17 <Chryyz> And it would slow CTF down, so that teamwork is more essential, rather than praying you can get from point A to point B before someoen nexes you
May 23 13:13:45 <kojn> I already tried to mention that in the weapons function thread
May 23 13:13:52 <kojn> and give UT movie examples
May 23 13:14:02 <kojn> showing great teamwork
May 23 13:15:26 <kojn> http://vimeo.com/10630444
May 23 13:15:44 <kojn> nice bit at 3 mins where teamwork comes in
May 23 13:15:48 <kojn> and towards end of movie
May 23 13:15:53 <kojn> also a capture with teamwork
May 23 13:16:07 <kojn> I just dislike how you can capture in nexuiz in like 7 seconds
May 23 13:16:10 <kojn> even on bigish maps
May 23 13:16:39 <kojn> well the fact you can only use hitscan..then people say it's too strong..
May 23 13:16:53 <kojn> just like you said really, being grounded more.
May 23 13:18:32 <Chryyz> Yeah...
May 23 13:18:42 <Chryyz> That 3m cap is pretty awesome
May 23 13:18:49 <Chryyz> I'd love to see something like that
May 23 13:18:54 <kojn> the last cap is awesome too
May 23 13:19:02 <Chryyz> The weapons need to be tossed too though
May 23 13:19:09 <kojn> you'll see how many players they all have back when near there base..like all 5 of em
May 23 13:19:10 <kojn> yep
May 23 13:19:21 <kojn> I'd like to see weaponstay ON
May 23 13:19:26 <kojn> for CTF
May 23 13:19:27 <Chryyz> Hrmm?
May 23 13:19:43 <kojn> I think more and more people wanted this, or atleast a very very low respawn times for weapons in CTF
May 23 13:19:53 <kojn> well if you think about it, you die, attacker in base
May 23 13:19:58 <kojn> they get flag go out
May 23 13:20:04 <kojn> do you really want to be waiting for a weapon?
May 23 13:20:12 <Chryyz> Hmm...
May 23 13:20:12 <kojn> it's ok currently because the shotgun is so strong
May 23 13:20:38 <Chryyz> I'm not sure what weaponstay is exactly. The context helps, but could you clarify?
May 23 13:22:01 <kojn> ok it's basically
May 23 13:22:04 <kojn> when you pick up a weapon
May 23 13:22:08 <kojn> it doesnt get picked up so to speak
May 23 13:22:14 <kojn> so you get the weapon
May 23 13:22:17 <kojn> but its still on the ground
May 23 13:22:19 <kojn> make sense?
May 23 13:22:23 <Chryyz> Oh
May 23 13:22:28 <Chryyz> Yeah, I know what you're talking about
May 23 13:22:38 <kojn>
May 23 13:22:40 <kojn> btw
May 23 13:22:42 <Chryyz> That would remove weapon camping in 1v1 aswell
May 23 13:22:44 <kojn> http://app2.fileplay.net/file/7338/px-dream-or-reality
May 23 13:22:46 <Chryyz> Sort of
May 23 13:22:53 <kojn> watch that
May 23 13:23:02 <kojn> same map, but also great teamwork
May 23 13:23:43 <kojn> Well I think CTF needs weaponstay jusy because it's very fast gametype
May 23 13:23:57 <kojn> and you need to get weapons quickly
May 23 13:24:09 <Chryyz> Yeah, it's ridiculous waiting for weapons because your teammates keep dying and taking everything
May 23 13:24:24 <Chryyz> Then you have the opposing team aswell
May 23 13:24:44 <kojn> exactly
May 23 13:24:45 <Chryyz> They kill enough of your team, and they have you by the balls as long as they don't let up
May 23 13:24:55 <kojn> it's a problem
May 23 13:25:09 <kojn> when I first mentioned it like 2 years ago..same attitude as everything else
May 23 13:25:11 <kojn> NO!
May 23 13:25:15 <kojn> you can't do that!
May 23 13:25:33 <kojn> just because it's change.
May 23 13:25:57 <kojn> thats a big problem with the nexuiz community/mindset, everyone fears change..even if it makes logical sense too
May 23 13:28:23 <kojn> Well basically I like you, would like to see more teamwork, better gameplay for CTF
May 23 13:28:32 * Chryyz nods.
May 23 13:28:40 <kojn> Less aerial, more grounded, more use of all the weapons not just hitscan.
May 23 13:29:00 <kojn> Problem is I try to use vids as kind of erm..a way to explain my point
May 23 13:29:08 <kojn> but then I get accused of trying to make 'nexuiz' UT.
May 23 13:29:14 <Chryyz> At the moment, the rotation is pretty much. Nex -> Mortar -> Rocket ->
May 23 13:29:19 <Chryyz> Electro, Crylink, Hagar
May 23 13:29:41 <Chryyz> They're all neglected because they're simply innefficient or difficult to use as opposed to the rest
May 23 13:29:48 <Chryyz> Yeah, I saw that
May 23 13:30:08 <kojn> basically I want to increase playerbase, better gameplay
May 23 13:30:14 <kojn> and less of this crazyness like you said
May 23 13:30:18 <kojn> 200ft rocket jumps
May 23 13:30:28 <kojn> and same with laser.
May 23 13:31:13 <Chryyz> Laser should be dropped completely in my opinion.
May 23 13:31:21 <Chryyz> Rockets... rockets are in every game
May 23 13:31:36 <Chryyz> But the pushback and blast radius are far too high
May 23 13:31:43 <kojn> I like the current rocket speed in the current GIT
May 23 13:31:46 <kojn> <Chryyz> But the pushback and blast radius are far too high
May 23 13:31:48 <kojn> !
May 23 13:31:48 <kojn> yes
May 23 13:31:55 <kojn> the 'force' of a lot of weapons
May 23 13:31:58 <kojn> is really too much
May 23 13:32:01 <kojn> way too much
May 23 13:32:01 <Chryyz> Right now it's necessary because of movement speed
May 23 13:32:19 <Chryyz> But if movement is toned down to emphasize ground movement, that will no longer be a necessity
May 23 13:32:26 <kojn> I'd like to see the RL have a less wider splash area
May 23 13:32:32 <kojn> so you need to be more accurate with it
May 23 13:32:46 <Chryyz> And yes... the pushback on many weapons is pretty dumb.
May 23 13:32:54 * Chryyz nods.
May 23 13:32:56 <kojn> but like a direct wham-bam shot in your face/body would do a lot of damage
May 23 13:33:01 <kojn> which is unlikely
May 23 13:33:04 <kojn> to happen
May 23 13:33:22 <Chryyz> I can't count how many times lasers and mortars have thrown me 50ft off of a spacemap, when I'm moving in the opposite direction
May 23 13:33:25 <kojn> problem is, if I say Game A does it like this
May 23 13:33:28 <kojn> 'Well, go play that game'
May 23 13:33:43 <kojn> but I give a good reason why Game A does it
May 23 13:33:49 <kojn> and why people play it
May 23 13:33:54 <Chryyz> Trick is not to compare it to another game, but merely bring up the poitn
May 23 13:33:56 <kojn> gamer's in general don't like randomness
May 23 13:33:56 <Chryyz> point*
May 23 13:34:07 <kojn> yea I guess I need to work on that
May 23 13:34:11 <kojn> <Chryyz> I can't count how many times lasers and mortars have thrown me 50ft off of a spacemap, when I'm moving in the opposite direction
May 23 13:34:16 <kojn> yea, it's pretty ridiculous
May 23 13:34:19 <kojn> again..more aerial
May 23 13:34:24 <Chryyz> In any case
May 23 13:34:33 <Chryyz> Xonotic's plan is to make new maps
May 23 13:34:40 <Chryyz> To generalize the theme and style of these maps
May 23 13:34:45 <Chryyz> New weapon models are being planned
May 23 13:34:53 <Chryyz> I see no reason to keep the Nexuiz gameplay
May 23 13:35:19 <Chryyz> It's a PERFECT opportunity for some new ideas
May 23 13:36:06 <Chryyz> Discussions such as these should be more common
May 23 13:36:17 <Chryyz> Rather than "How should we modify X feature"
May 23 13:37:17 <Chryyz> Yes, Xonotic is a branch off, it's derived from Nexuiz... but it doesn't mean it should come down to "pick your color" when comparing the two
May 23 13:39:02 <kojn> <Chryyz> Discussions such as these should be more common
May 23 13:39:04 <kojn> I agree
May 23 13:39:08 <kojn> but the problem is
May 23 13:39:11 <kojn> thread's get trolled
May 23 13:39:32 <kojn> frutiex agree's also with what you say, about weapon force
May 23 13:39:37 <kojn> im sure there is a few others who do also
May 23 13:39:53 <kojn> the problem in the community is..I like to try for a compromise
May 23 13:40:21 <kojn> I will put my idea forward if you dislike it, fine, but give sensible reasoning why..then give an idea of how it could be improved etc
May 23 13:40:27 <kojn> unfortunately that does happen enough
May 23 13:40:59 <kojn> doesnt
May 23 13:41:12 <kojn> <Chryyz> To generalize the theme and style of these maps
May 23 13:41:14 <kojn> <Chryyz> New weapon models are being planned
May 23 13:41:14 <kojn> <Chryyz> I see no reason to keep the Nexuiz gameplay
May 23 13:41:14 <kojn> <Chryyz> It's a PERFECT opportunity for some new ideas
May 23 13:41:22 <kojn> I actually 100% agree, and it's like you say
May 23 13:41:25 <kojn> Yes, Xonotic is a branch off, it's derived from Nexuiz... but it doesn't mean it should come down to "pick your color" when comparing the two
May 23 13:42:07 <kojn> There needs to be sufficient change anyway if it's going to attract a bigger player audience this time around.
May 23 13:42:16 * Chryyz nods.
May 23 13:42:27 <Chryyz> There's a reason you only have a few active servers on Nexuiz
May 23 13:42:44 <Chryyz> Why would people be more interested the wolf in sheep's clothing?
May 23 13:43:29 <kojn> exactly, thats my point!
May 23 13:43:58 <kojn> I know for a fact that on ESReality for example, people will literally just go 'so basically it's that aweful game under a different name'
May 23 13:44:01 <kojn> well not all of them
May 23 13:44:03 <kojn> but a lot
May 23 13:44:16 <kojn> Nexuiz isn't aweful I don't think at all.,.otherwise id of never played it
May 23 13:44:35 <Chryyz> But it could be so much better.
May 23 13:44:37 <kojn> but basically what your saying is correct
May 23 13:44:53 <kojn> Yep it could, I have great hope that Xonotic will be
May 23 13:44:59 <kojn> As long as it's not rushed
May 23 13:45:05 <Chryyz> On another note
May 23 13:45:08 <Chryyz> Headshots.
May 23 13:45:22 <Chryyz> It's a great way to tone down railgun mechanics
May 23 13:45:57 <Chryyz> Obviously nobody is going to be for dropping the ol' railgun. I prefer it myself
May 23 13:46:13 <Chryyz> But looking at the Nexuiz nex, it's far too powerful under normal conditions
May 23 13:46:14 <kojn> http://app2.fileplay.net/file/7338/px-dr...ty#mirrors <-- oh yea, that link watch the flagrun..see how they use Powerups before they attacked also
May 23 13:46:27 <kojn> Im also up for dropping the nex
May 23 13:46:38 <kojn> and replacing with the camping rifle/sniper rifle
May 23 13:46:48 <Chryyz> I hate the camping rifle personally
May 23 13:46:51 <Chryyz> I can't stand it
May 23 13:47:06 <kojn> I mean in current GIT
May 23 13:47:06 <Chryyz> And it's shots are off crosshair anyway
May 23 13:47:14 <kojn> the primary fire is pretty good
May 23 13:47:32 <kojn> cant comment on damage, but it's ROF is nearly perfect perhaps a little too quick
May 23 13:49:15 <Chryyz> The only way I could justify the mechanics is if movement was significantly slowed, as I'm looking at
May 23 13:49:30 <kojn> you mean the nex, or CR?
May 23 13:49:32 <Chryyz> With current speeds, by the time you get your first shot off, they're on you already
May 23 13:49:33 <Chryyz> CR
May 23 13:49:48 <kojn> ok well, I tested it against frutiex a little
May 23 13:49:51 <kojn> in it's current state
May 23 13:49:55 <kojn> purposely for this reason
May 23 13:50:08 <kojn> it's actually quite easy to hit with
May 23 13:50:11 <kojn> because the shots are fast
May 23 13:50:29 <kojn> it's probably better then using the nex..because you can fire multiple shots
May 23 13:50:32 <kojn> and not have to wait
May 23 13:50:44 <kojn> and your not also boosting people when you hit them with it, unlike with the nex
May 23 13:51:23 <kojn> Im not a fan of the secondary fire at all..in its current state its way way way too powerful
May 23 13:51:58 <kojn> if you get what I mean, with the CR/sniper you still have a chance of killing someone when they move pretty fast
May 23 13:52:02 <kojn> with the nex you have the delay
May 23 13:52:25 * Chryyz nods.
May 23 13:52:26 <kojn> with the current CR you can get shots off one after the other still
May 23 13:52:33 <Chryyz> I don't have much of an opinion on the CR though
May 23 13:52:40 <Chryyz> I personally avoid it like the plague
May 23 13:52:43 <kojn> yea, i'll be honest, I hated it.
May 23 13:52:47 <kojn> in nexuiz I still do
May 23 13:52:50 <kojn> I think it's a pile of crap
May 23 13:53:00 <kojn> but in xonotic GIT, im thinking of it more as a sniper
May 23 13:53:08 <kojn> new model etc
May 23 13:53:18 <kojn> well I mean if it had a new model
May 23 13:53:30 <kojn> I might have a go at tweaking it's settings actually
May 23 13:53:38 <Chryyz> I'm personally in favor of railguns
May 23 13:53:50 <kojn> lda17h had a funky nex
May 23 13:53:57 <kojn> it was basically UT's shock rifle
May 23 13:53:58 <Chryyz> Beam weapons suit a futuristic environment much better
May 23 13:54:05 <kojn> I agree there
May 23 13:54:11 <Chryyz> I love the shock rifle =D
May 23 13:54:16 <kojn> I think div0 was more inclined towards a sniper
May 23 13:54:20 <kojn> but like a 'pulse sniper'
May 23 13:54:22 <kojn> he said I think
May 23 13:54:30 <kojn> so it would fire pulse slugs or something he was saying
May 23 13:54:39 <Chryyz> That's fine
May 23 13:54:55 <kojn> for exact same reason you just mentioned..futuristic
May 23 13:55:57 <Chryyz> A possible secondary fire that would be interesting...
May 23 13:56:09 <kojn> :O
May 23 13:56:11 <Chryyz> Rather than an immediate shot upon click
May 23 13:56:20 <Chryyz> You charge up as you hold down
May 23 13:56:34 <kojn> btw
May 23 13:56:43 <kojn> people bitched at also saying in those vid's UT had huge maps
May 23 13:56:50 <kojn> but UT is a slower game and you can still cap
May 23 13:56:54 <Chryyz> And fire a slightly more powerful shot. Possibly to shoot through a single layer of a wall?
May 23 13:56:59 <kojn> because I got the argument of if you dont have laser, you wont be able to cap
May 23 13:57:05 <kojn> which is just bullshit
May 23 13:57:14 <kojn> <Chryyz> And fire a slightly more powerful shot. Possibly to shoot through a single layer of a wall?
May 23 13:57:20 <kojn> that could be pretty cool actually
May 23 13:57:41 <Chryyz> Not sure how that could work in the open though
May 23 13:58:00 <kojn> <kojn> because I got the argument of if you dont have laser, you wont be able to cap
May 23 13:58:00 <Chryyz> Obviously people would fall back on secondary unless there was a huge drawback
May 23 13:58:07 <Chryyz> Like an excessively long charge time
May 23 13:58:18 <kojn> yep, so somehting would need to be done..
May 23 13:58:22 <Chryyz> Ahh.
May 23 13:58:30 <Chryyz> UT rocket has a nice impression there
May 23 13:58:38 <kojn> ?
May 23 13:58:39 <Chryyz> Instead of letting them pick the fire time
May 23 13:58:44 <kojn> oh
May 23 13:58:46 <kojn> yea it does
May 23 13:58:57 <Chryyz> It fires after a time limit
May 23 13:58:58 <kojn> charging up the rockets
May 23 13:59:02 <Chryyz> Yes
May 23 13:59:13 <Chryyz> They can pick at which point they fire within the limit
May 23 13:59:17 <kojn> basically once it gets to 6 its fullload it autofires
May 23 13:59:22 <Chryyz> But after that, it fires on it's own
May 23 13:59:27 <Chryyz> Yes
May 23 13:59:44 <Chryyz> That way, they can't charge it up and "WTFPWN" people they run into
May 23 14:00:46 <Chryyz> In that sense, you could make pulse slugs, similar to electro mainfire, but faster and more streamlined for primary
May 23 14:00:56 <Chryyz> And something similar to the nex beam for secondary
May 23 14:01:58 <kojn> hmm
May 23 14:02:02 <kojn> yep thats possible
May 23 14:02:21 <kojn> Still I would want it though to fire like a sniper primary
May 23 14:02:43 <Chryyz> Yup. Pulse slugs.
May 23 14:02:50 <Chryyz> Basically, bullets of blue light
May 23 14:02:51 <Chryyz> XD
May 23 14:02:55 <kojn> Ok im with you =D
May 23 14:03:03 <Chryyz> As you mentioned
May 23 14:03:11 <Chryyz> The secondary would fall back to the beam
May 23 14:04:17 <kojn> ok
May 23 14:04:23 <kojn> tbh I just want to see some epic teamwork
May 23 14:04:26 <kojn> in CTF
May 23 14:04:27 <Chryyz> And as long as the secondary charge time is long enough, and has a time limit attached, it should prevent people from taking advantage of it under most circumstances
May 23 14:04:29 <kojn> =D
May 23 14:04:36 <kojn> ok I see
May 23 14:04:36 <Chryyz> Most definitely
May 23 14:04:41 <kojn> so they cant charge it up like you say
May 23 14:04:43 <kojn> and just walk around
May 23 14:04:46 <kojn> till they meet someone
May 23 14:04:50 * Chryyz nods.
May 23 14:04:52 <kojn> it actually requires skill to use it
May 23 14:04:56 <kojn> or timing anyway
May 23 14:04:57 <Chryyz> Timing, yes.
May 23 14:06:24 <kojn> btw you can see in those UT vids
May 23 14:06:32 <kojn> it actually requires some skill and teamwork
May 23 14:06:35 <kojn> to capture in teamgames
May 23 14:06:40 <kojn> much more then nexuiz
May 23 14:06:56 <Chryyz> Yeah, I've played my share of UT
May 23 14:06:59 <kojn> same in Q3 vid's ive seen also
May 23 14:07:04 <kojn> yep
May 23 14:07:09 <Chryyz> Not 99
May 23 14:07:16 <Chryyz> But it carried on for a while afterward
May 23 14:07:20 <kojn> Just the laser destroys gameplay though in CTF it just annoys me
May 23 14:07:22 <kojn> :o
May 23 14:07:41 <kojn> im not even going to mention it anymore
May 23 14:07:55 <kojn> I have the same thoughts as you so
May 23 14:09:26 <kojn> I would love to be able to have 5v5 CTF clan games
May 23 14:09:33 <kojn> in Xonotic
May 23 14:09:51 <Chryyz> That aren't nex controlled, and absolutely retarded? =P
May 23 14:11:26 <kojn> essentially

=======================================

Obviously, discussions like these will continue... and I hope more people will take part in them in the future. Should this be the case, I'll see that I update this thread accordingly.

May 23 13:10:39 <kojn> I agree with you though, CTF is generally a joke at the moment
May 23 13:10:58 <kojn> I do not mind the laser as a weapon
May 23 13:11:11 <Chryyz> In my opinion... Xonotic shouldn't be as aerial as Nexuiz is
May 23 13:11:13 <kojn> but gameplay of any sort especially in CTF goes out the window.
May 23 13:11:22 <kojn> Well, thats one of my keypoints
May 23 13:11:30 <Chryyz> Trickjumping and such are fine, but rocketing and lasering 200 ft into the air is retarded
May 23 13:12:17 <Chryyz> You notice all the people that used to play on the jetpack server, simply because they didn't like lasering and rocketing anyway

May 23 13:16:07 <kojn> I just dislike how you can capture in nexuiz in like 7 seconds
May 23 13:16:10 <kojn> even on bigish maps

Completely the maps fault, because everyone plays retarded open maps that makes that possible, like dance..lavaflag. Let me see you capture in 7 seconds on mikectf. The problem with nexuiz ctf is the maps not the weapons, if we had less maps that promote that it would be fine.

and I'd like to see the weapons not be changed that much..except nex doing less damage. But of course me saying this won't affect anything.

I agree. This is the perfect time to completely rethink the game from the ground up. After Nexuiz we have a pretty decent idea of what works and what's a little weird.

I think the laser is an important thing to discuss. It's the most obvious difference between Nexuiz and Quake/UT sort of gameplay. So I think it's a pretty cool idea and should probably stick around in some form. The biggest issue I have with it is that the side effect to using it is almost non-consequential. The health loss is so small. So right now if you don't use it to boost movement, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage, which is why everyone uses it so often. If we increase the damage a bit, I think there would be a little more strategy involved with it, instead of a "duh, yeah, you should laser jump."

The problem with nexuiz ctf is the maps not the weapons

This is what I think, too.

However, it's really hard to get around the 'inertia' people have with map preferences. Most people seem to like maps which are 'bad' for tourney play, so you have to choose between making a map pool based on map popularity or making a map pool that will result in the best gameplay.

I personally think that maps should be decided based on gameplay, but its hard to keep tournament enthusiasm amongst newer players with that approach.

The problem with nexuiz ctf is the maps not the weapons

However, it's really hard to get around the 'inertia' people have with map preferences. Most people seem to like maps which are 'bad' for tourney play, so you have to choose between making a map pool based on map popularity or making a map pool that will result in the best gameplay.

As has been said in the 'Weapons' thread, I don't think we need an overhaul of weapons, I think we need a map overhaul. This seems like it will happen with most nexuiz maps being removed from the xonotic release, we just need to make sure we replace them with solid maps for both pub and competitive play.

So your solution would be to make maps that have low peaks and lots of turns so that lasering across the map is unfeasible? Let me ask you this then... Why is the laser necessary if these changes are made? The laser allows you to cheese just about every map at the moment (Not talking about just open maps), and with dodging and double jumps, I simply don't see a reason to keep it around... not in it's current form anyway. Speed capping needs to go... CTF should be more about teamwork than 1 or 2 people racing across the map too fast for anyone to catch them. What makes a fast-paced FPS is not your movement speed.

Anyway... This is the final thought I have on the laser. I'm not going to comment on it any more, because quite frankly, the subject is tiring, and there's far more to the conversation pasted above than just the laser. If you're one of those people who just skimmed to the replies and wrote up your own accordingly, I suggest you go back and read the entire thing.

May 23 14:09:26 <kojn> I would love to be able to have 5v5 CTF clan games
May 23 14:09:33 <kojn> in Xonotic
May 23 14:09:51 <Chryyz> That aren't nex controlled, and absolutely retarded? =P
May 23 14:11:26 <kojn> essentially

5on5s are possible. we played some lately! It was quite fun but the results werent that good.

Chryyz..that's a really good point I never thought of actually what would then be the point of it.. I would like to see some replies to that.

Do we really want the maps all enclosed though.. some of the new maps like Geomentary for example have both open and enclosed parts for example but that map is really well designed.

Cortez..It's not that I don't believe there possible in nexuiz as they are, your screenshot prooves that if nothing else, it's just that there isn't really many players about for those kind of games..and that's what I mentioned about gaining a bigger playerbase on the other thread and why a lot of player's from other games basically tried 'nexuiz' but were very frustrated by the movement and some of the balance.

I'd also like to point out that restricting space on maps allows players to simply cockblock a corridor, resulting in a stalemate. I say "cockblock", because one or two people can easily cover a mid sized corridor with explosives. Assuming the radius on weapons is toned down to a tolerable level even, you're still greatly restricting movement, which will encourage people to camp, as they do on Counter Strike.

Actually, I'm going to retract my earlier statement temporarily to say this. "Yes, the laser is a unique part of Nexuiz".

Let's have another look at that.

"Yes, the laser is a unique part of Nexuiz"

As I told kojn in the logged conversation above. It's the perfect time for new ideas. If you'd like to have some sort of device that lets you move around a bit more quickly (at a cost), come up with a new and unique concept for Xonotic. Stop hanging on to old ideas.

with leaving out the laser you would and add dodging you would go in the ut direction.

with leaving out the laser you would and add dodging you would go in the ut direction.

There was no laser in quake, therefore it has no bearing on this "UT direction". Dodging is a concept, by no means should it ever be considered copyright to UT. It would have happened eventually. Your biggest mistake is thinking that Quake and UT, while being two of the most successful commercial FPS, are the sole two factions, and a side must be picked. This is not the case... Simply integrating dodging does not make the game UT. Stop comparing the game to other games, and instead focus on what it could be.

Don't forget that many of us are here because we loved Nexuiz and didn't like how it was treated not because we wanted a completely different game.

I too find the laser to be a big problem for the reasons mentioned. I have two possible proposals for fixing it and better integrating it into the game the way it should--


Proposal 1

1) Make the laser offhand.

2) Make the laser use (regenerating) fuel like jet pack and grapple hook.

3) Tweak fuel consumption to allow 3-4 jumps at a time.

4) Make laser do no self damage.

5) Treat laser as a map-dependent feature, off by default. It would only come equipped on maps that were balanced for it, probably many official DM maps but far fewer official CTF maps. (Like how jet pack comes equipped on the official map ONS Reborn, but not most maps by default).


Proposal 2

1) Increase laser damage until it delivers ~25 self damage instead of ~15 as in 2.5.2.

2) Give it a secondary, high damage 2-5 meter ranged "melee" attack.

Don't forget that many of us are here because we loved Nexuiz and didn't like how it was treated not because we wanted a completely different game.

Parasti makes a good point here to be honest.

But let's not forget 2.6 was due for a massive revamp anyway, weapons atleast were going to be changed quite a lot, and physics suggestions were also thrown in there, there's nothing new that I would of posted there that i'm posting for xonotic now, it's just a chance to make something better and like vbraun said from the ground up.

My reasoning is to help get the game a bigger playerbase which it has lacked, more player's more fun I would hope, but two of the major factors before for why nexuiz got slated a lot was it's movement and gameplay (like the crazy force weapons give for example).

This is a chance to make something new and better, anyway can we try and point out some more points from the conversation rather then just the laser, atleast some kind of suggestion..

---

I am going to work on some kind of weapon balance tonight, I will take idea's from tZork's current balance he is working on, some of my own idea's and lda17h's rocket launcher.

tZork made some interesting changes to the amount of ammo weapons have, like his MG I tested is really unique, it's primary is super high ROF, but it eat's ammo in seconds and you need to be really close for it to deliver heavy damage, secondary I still need to test, but I will post here with what I find and on my other thread.

My reasoning is to help get the game a bigger playerbase which it has lacked, more player's more fun I would hope, but two of the major factors before for why nexuiz got slated a lot was it's movement and gameplay (like the crazy force weapons give for example).

One big reason why nexuiz didnt had a large player base, is there was no real publicity. The internet offered various ways for PR and nexuiz used nearly none.
Same is going to happen Xonotic if there isnt a change. The news are more then 2 months old, same goes for the media page. There is already much to show off. Also its a chance to make the development transperant if there constant development updates.

in some ways, all those things nexuiz/xonotic are struggeling with are nearly the same things warsow had to deal with. when they finally realized that too much speed and too much freedom in movement kills good teamplay, they started experimenting with different mapstyles, flagtimers for grabbing/capping etc etc but it never really solved the problem. same thing goes for the laser imo. whats the logical outcome when you dont want to remove the laser? creating openspace maps where you can easily nex someones ass at his own flag with one or two laserjumps (f.e. dance). the other way is to "rebalance" the weapons fitting for that kind of ctf which destroys good 1v1 play at the same time.
imho there is no obvious need for a physicchange IF the laser would be disabled or changed in a different way. you can change the physics one way or the other, the outcome would always be the same because of the possibility to reach every spot on every map in a minimum amount of time and effort without even losing a dangerous amount of health absolutely makes the physics secondary (that's what nearly everyone of my ql mates said, take aggressor 1v1 for example).
imagine ut99 ctf if the fc is allowed to use the translocator. or quake ctf with rocketjumps causing only a small amount of selfdamage: it would be totally imbalanced right?. so i will say this again and say this tomorrow: if you want freedom in your movement you should pay the prize for it. everything else kills the competitive way of playing and it would stay as random as it is now. the warsow community got a reason why they only play their bombmode now (which is actually pretty cool imo).

so to come to an end: i dont dislike the laser nor do i dislike freedom in movement i just think that its time for some changes because as i said, it will be random and unfair again. and its not my wish to get an all-"quakish" xonotic. increasing the selfdamage and givnig the laser some kind of meelee weapon (what i missed since i started playing nexuiz) could be an option for sure. im very excited and optimistic about what might come out of this discussion

agree fully with chryyz and kojn.

Let them have their nexuiz balance, these things could instead be tweaked into XPM (well they are pretty much in already, but the rest is too different from the nex balance). It would be ace though if the projectile weapons post-tweaking stayed compatible to current XPMrun :p Other than that I'm ready to introduce just about any changes into that balance, that may be more wished by the competitive community (as opposed to public players).

hm ofc thats an option but in general it shouldn't be the goal to have two different games in one. it's like 100% contra-productive but seems to be the only way though :]

One point I wanted to bring up in a previous post, but I was tired of editing it, and decided to sleep instead... Is weapon balance. This was touched upon in the above conversation, but not in much detail.

Weapon balance is extremely important for the entirety of the game. Sorry to say this, but Nexuiz is not, and never was balanced. Here are a few examples. Electro; the damage isn't bad, the secondary gives it amazing potential, but... The primary fire shots are slow, requiring you to aim quite a bit ahead of the enemy to hit. Midair shots are nearly impossible. The secondary, while powerful, takes far too long to prepare, and really only shows it's true potential when camping. If it came down to electro vs nex, rocket, or mortar. Which would you choose? Hagar; Now this one is just terrible. One of the highest damage weapons in the game, but hitting with it requires you to be really close to your target (making you vulnerable), low ping (even so, you have to aim FAR ahead of your target to actually catch him with a chain), and the secondary is just awful.

What should happen... Weapons should be modified and tested extensively to ensure that each weapon is viable in more than just one situation. Every weapon should be easy to use for the most part, but elements that require skill and practice should also be present. New players or veterans should not feel the need to rely on a single arsenal of weapons, and only use the rest simply because nothing else was available.

Weapon balance is extremely important

hm ofc thats an option but in general it shouldn't be the goal to have two different games in one. it's like 100% contra-productive but seems to be the only way though :]

yep i'm HOPING this isn't needed, but we'll see.

Here's a simple solution to balance Laser-jumps in CTF, and promote teamwork at the same time:

Increase self-damage for all weapons.
Add a short-range healing beam as the laser secondary.

First of all, the additional self-damage increases the health cost of weapon-based jumps for solo flag carriers, while the secondary fire allows two or more people to weapon-jump indefinitely. As long as they stop to heal each other, of course.

Here's a simple solution to balance Laser-jumps in CTF, and promote teamwork at the same time:

Increase self-damage for all weapons.
Add a short-range healing beam as the laser secondary.

First of all, the additional self-damage increases the health cost of weapon-based jumps for solo flag carriers, while the secondary fire allows two or more people to weapon-jump indefinitely. As long as they stop to heal each other, of course.

Healing beam... sure. I like it.

Keeping laser? No thanks. The scenario you shared reminds me all too well of UT CTF games on Facing, where people would have teammates shoot them off the roof of the base with the rifle.

... Keeping laser? No thanks. ...

The laser itself is only one of the weapons that offer significant impulse.

If it were removed, the mortar, RL, HLAC have and will continue to provide cost-effective weapon jumps. And so the problem would remain.

... Keeping laser? No thanks. ...

The laser itself is only one of the weapons that offer significant impulse.

If it were removed, the mortar, RL, HLAC have and will continue to provide cost-effective weapon jumps. And so the problem would remain.

First, all of this is assuming all of the weapons are kept with the exact same settings they currently have. I don't support keeping Nexuiz weapons in any way shape or form, simply because Nexuiz is Nexuiz, and if I want to play Nexuiz, I'll play Nexuiz.

That said, let's follow your scenario for a moment. To begin with, you don't jump with the mortar. Why? Because jumping with the mortar is about as effective as rocket jumping on Quake Live as far as height, and you take massive damage. Rocket Launcher was never a cost effective jump, people simply stacked armor and health before doing them, and the height you reached was so excessive, that it simply nullified any distance you would have to cross on a map. HLAC... Since when could you jump with the hlac? It's a spamming weapon, used for spamming. The only thing even close to jumping with the hlac that I know of is wall riding, and you have to have shield and armor up to do it for more than a few seconds.