[SUGGESTION] A Simple Conversation

... jumping with the mortar is about as effective as rocket jumping on Quake Live ...

If you meant higher and more consistently than the laser, then that is correct.

... and you take massive damage ...

It's 25 damage, which is still cost-effective for dodging enemy rockets or mortars.

... Since when could you jump with the hlac? ...

Have you ever used the secondary fire..?

... jumping with the mortar is about as effective as rocket jumping on Quake Live ...

If you meant higher and more consistently than the laser, then that is correct.

... and you take massive damage ...

It's 25 damage, which is still cost-effective for dodging enemy rockets or mortars.

So... you mortar yourself to dodge an enemy mortar, and it's cost effective how?

So... you mortar yourself to dodge an enemy mortar, and it's cost effective how?

Do you even understand the concept of g_balance_selfdamagepercent?

I'd rather not have two types of game either rolled into one kind of seems pointless too but It's possible..

FrutieX what would you have though..XPM physics or the one's me and you made, and then would we have different weapons I take it from current XPM?

---

One point I wanted to bring up in a previous post, but I was tired of editing it, and decided to sleep instead... Is weapon balance. This was touched upon in the above conversation, but not in much detail.

Weapon balance is extremely important for the entirety of the game. Sorry to say this, but Nexuiz is not, and never was balanced. Here are a few examples. Electro; the damage isn't bad, the secondary gives it amazing potential, but... The primary fire shots are slow, requiring you to aim quite a bit ahead of the enemy to hit. Midair shots are nearly impossible. The secondary, while powerful, takes far too long to prepare, and really only shows it's true potential when camping. If it came down to electro vs nex, rocket, or mortar. Which would you choose? Hagar; Now this one is just terrible. One of the highest damage weapons in the game, but hitting with it requires you to be really close to your target (making you vulnerable), low ping (even so, you have to aim FAR ahead of your target to actually catch him with a chain), and the secondary is just awful.

What should happen... Weapons should be modified and tested extensively to ensure that each weapon is viable in more than just one situation. Every weapon should be easy to use for the most part, but elements that require skill and practice should also be present. New players or veterans should not feel the need to rely on a single arsenal of weapons, and only use the rest simply because nothing else was available.

Weapon balance is extremely important

^^ This basically.

I'm nearly always walking around with the nex or mg when I can, however as I have said I do like the current xonotic GITs RL speed, lda17h has got some great rocket launcher settings, I am trying to get them so I can have another test with them and paste the settings into this thread and so people can give feedback, I think the RL from nexuiz was one of the better weapons just it had a massive splash and huge force, it did get made faster one time and less splash but it seemed to be half and half with people disliking it and the other half liking it.

As for the nexgun for example, there has been talks about some kind of pulse/sniper-rifle to possibly replace it (note POSSIBLY, not is definitely going to happen)? That wouldn't fire bullet's but some kind of pulse/laser/slug to fit with xonotic's futuristic/sci-fi theme..now I don't know if this would be a rapid-fire weapon similar to a sniper (ok so not rapid rapid, like 0.8 seconds re-fire but lower damage like 50-60), or whether it would have a beam like the nex, but say do less damage then the current nex but stay kind of the same. Personally I am proficient in using the nex anyway so I guess I shouldn't be wanting any change but I like the sound of a pulse-rifle just because everyone bitches about the nexgun's power all the time, the only other way is to really change the nex otherwise and make it's damage a lot less, but again I think it would then need to fire quicker which is then going to make it like UT's shock primary..is it possible to have it similar to that/nex combination but so you could also charge it up quickly kind of like Half-Life's gauze gun, so it acted a bit like that (but not as rapid as that)?

^^^^ I think basically Chryyz mentioned that idea in the text, but people also mentioned about a charging nex on the nexuiz forums before, so would that be quite an interesting concept, bit more rapid fire weapon, beam/laser that does low damage normally, but could be charged upto say 2 seconds for example to deal a higher amount of damage, but so you couldn't just walk around with a charged shot you'd need to time it otherwise it would damge you or something..

I do agree though that the weapon balance needs to be completely re-worked if the game is also to become successful and have a better gameplay.

Discussions in IRC moved into the xonotic channel, at which point some tidbits were brought up. I'm not going to copy and paste the log, because there's even more lines than there were in the first post, but basically it comes down to this: Samual proposed a plasma pistol-like weapon (from Halo) to replace the laser, possibly as the primary starting weapon, with no ammunition requirement.

I'd also like to take a bit of time to point out what this thread is for...

I chose to post this conversation between kojn and I because I thought it would enlighten people to the ripe opportunity to shape a game that will appeal to many more people than it's predecessor. I'd like to see CTF games that are taken back to their roots, relying more upon teamwork than shooting across maps at breakneck speeds and capping before anyone not preemptively positioned beforehand (camping) can react. I'd like to see fresh, new, unique ideas that will surprise and enlighten people that come to try Xonotic out. This thread is to discuss what direction could be taken in a general sense, rather than specific details, or reskinning Nexuiz. If you'd like to discuss why Xonotic should be Nexuiz 3.0, I kindly ask that you make another thread.

Personally I´m against tons of indoor maps, because I´m a minsta+hook player which requires larger outdoor maps with space for laserjumping+hooking and preferably also dodging.


Most of the stuff in this thread doesnt concern me too much, but i have to say the electro really isnt a very balanced weapon.

I actually like the idea of the laser beeing a map-specific feature. same goes for dodging imho. one could also regulate dodging, meaning farther jumps on larger maps and smaller dodging-jumps in indoor maps.

Actually I´m quite content with the gameplay atm (except of camping on some maps/servers - but o well) , if you´d manage to improve it further though that´d be great of course.

if you´d manage to improve it further though that´d be great of course.

Yes it would. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to hear what kind of improvements you think could be made to make it more appealing.

1.
Map-specific dodging would be cool (with different levels from 0 - no dodging to 9 large distance dodging) together with midair dodging - which is less powerful than normal dodging and doesnt give you any upwars momentum to prevent flying around maps.

2.
A new mutator something between minstagib and standard gameplay - meaning laser is also on every weapon as a secondary and hook is enabled by default. Due to faster gameplay one would either have to reduce health or increase the damage of the weapons.
Slow weapons like the electro would be useless and should be dropped/redesigned.
I think that´d be a cool new mutator.

3.
Some marketing for all the other cool gamemodes like ONS/Rune etc. witch are only seldomly played because nearly nobody knows them and there arent too many servers available either.

4.
I miss something simple like a pistol/redeemer as a startup weapon, doing only little damage in most cases, not very acurrat but shows its full power if you give a headshot - therfore only useful in nearrange combat.
(I don´t really like the shotgun)

I think point 3 is most important though as a marketing is essential for a game to become known.

1.
Map-specific dodging would be cool (with different levels from 0 - no dodging to 9 large distance dodging) together with midair dodging - which is less powerful than normal dodging and doesnt give you any upwars momentum to prevent flying around maps.

2.
A new mutator something between minstagib and standard gameplay - meaning laser is also on every weapon as a secondary and hook is enabled by default. Due to faster gameplay one would either have to reduce health or increase the damage of the weapons.
Slow weapons like the electro would be useless and should be dropped/redesigned.
I think that´d be a cool new mutator.

3.
Some marketing for all the other cool gamemodes like ONS/Rune etc. witch are only seldomly played because nearly nobody knows them and there arent too many servers available either.

4.
I miss something simple like a pistol/redeemer as a startup weapon, doing only little damage in most cases, not very acurrat but shows its full power if you give a headshot - therfore only useful in nearrange combat.
(I don´t really like the shotgun)

I think point 3 is most important though as a marketing is essential for a game to become known.

'kay...

1) There's no need for the "1-9 distance" bit, it will be set by a cvar, and long distance dodging would be as much of a problem as laser is right now, but with no drawback whatsoever, unless you threw yourself off the map. Midair dodging simply doesn't make sense... but dodging off of walls would.

2) Minstagib works with a completely different weapon, it's not a mutator, and the reason it has laser as secondary is because it was coded that way

3) People never played Onslaught due to lack of maps. It was released with only one map, and a few people played it for a while, but the lack of initial interest drew people back to CTF for teamplay.

4) Pistols have never been inaccurate x.x What's a redeemer?

'kay...

1) There's no need for the "1-9 distance" bit, it will be set by a cvar, and long distance dodging would be as much of a problem as laser is right now, but with no drawback whatsoever, unless you threw yourself off the map. Midair dodging simply doesn't make sense... but dodging off of walls would.

2) Minstagib works with a completely different weapon, it's not a mutator, and the reason it has laser as secondary is because it was coded that way

3) People never played Onslaught due to lack of maps. It was released with only one map, and a few people played it for a while, but the lack of initial interest drew people back to CTF for teamplay.

4) Pistols have never been inaccurate x.x

1.
Why wouldnt´t it make sense?? I think it would be fun and makes 1on1s for example more challenging
I actually dont see the laser as a problem but one of the things that make most fun in Nex, of course i usually play minstagib and never managed to use the laser in standard mods usefully without killing myself xD

2. Well yeah but its in the mutator list in the "create" section - but doesnt really matter anyway.

3. I actually now 4 onslaught maps - And you can use any map for RUNE and LMS - but nearly noone knows they exsist and the few servers available are usually quite laggy .
So a bit of commercial + maybe turning some anyway empty ctf/dm servers to rune etc. servers would be cool.

4. Well on larger distances pistols arent very accurate anymore -> useless for camping etc. and there smaller xD than a shotgun
But this plasma-thing idea instead of the shotgun also sounds intersting

We shouldn't change the game for the sake of changing the game. We should change the game because it's the right thing to do. The argument that "version xx had revamps due anyway" is strange for several reasons - one, because IIRC that version was not in the tracker, and two, because the fact that it is planned does not guarantee that it should happen. I'm sure people would resist just as they are resisting now.

The aerial gameplay is definitely something that I like. Jumping into the air can get you a better angle for a difficult to execute nex shot on a target on the ground, but it also exposes you to everyone. You can make a shot that changes the course of the game, but you yourself could get shot. I do not believe it is interesting when everyone is grounded and moving at 400 qu/s or significantly faster. If we wanted that, we might as well do away with 3d graphics and have it be 2d.

As a side note, minsta is a mutator. It is not a gametype. A gametype contains its own set of rules and teams, etc. A mutator may be combined with any gametype. Hook is a mutator. CTF is a gametype. You can have minsta ctf (Dietunichtguten) and minsta dm (mousegloves, intoxicated).

And as a final note, we need to popularize nexuiz's other gametypes. You go and look at a server list, you see about 25% dm servers and 75% ctf servers. One way to do this is to have "clay servers" - these servers have all gametypes of a certain kind votable. For instance, a "team clay server" lets you play all gametypes with teams (ons, dom, ctf, etc.). A "ffa clay server" allows you to play all ffa gametypes (this may be just DM?).

I agree that mid-air dodging would make no sense and mostly harm balance and gameplay in general. It would also break "juggling" for better or for worse.

The laser isn't at all imbalanced in Minsta, only in default balance is it a problem.

Rune and LMS are broken gametypes, that's why they're not played, IMO. However Keyhunt, which is playable on any TDM map, is a very excellent gametype, yet is ignored by almost all servers. Similar story for Domination. So a lack of maps might not be enough to help on their own.

The thing that would help, as kojn mentioned earlier, is to attract a much larger playerbase, to try out these gametypes. Versus the stagnant, possibly declining playerbase Nexuiz had which stuck to DM and CTF religiously.

I mean I for one love CTF, but would also love to play Keyhunt and Onslaught just as much, except there is no one around to play them.

I agree with you regarding KH and ONS, steel (as for rune and LMS, well, I think they are fine and cool, could you elaborate?). However, I must warn about large playerbases.
First off, let me explain why it's a bad idea. Sure, a large playerbase equals a higher number of good people playing. But for every cool person, there are 100 assholes. If you insist on enlarging the playerbase, we need a few things added to the game, I think, to counter trolls. Client-side mute, server passwords, and the ability to see private servers in the server list (if you add their IPs to a text file or something). The first will prevent too much annoyance from trolls (unless they start tking), and the other two make it easier to keep good players segregated from bad players (a random CTF teamkiller will not play on the BC's). In addition, public servers need a large staff of admins to police them and deal with trolls.
But let's say you are adamant. You want a large playerbase. This means advertising (which costs money). There is no other way to get the word out. We could also start selling more merchandise. Really though, I don't know what else could be done here.

. . .could you elaborate?)

Rune and LMS are weighed down by the fact they combine a stats mutator with a gametype, which no other gametype does, probably for good reason.

LMS should be about who can achieve the best kill to death ratio, with average default settings (unless a mutator is applied explicitly), with any number of players. It takes the skill set you need to win in a 1 vs 1 DM duel, and makes it work for any number of players. But giving everyone every weapon, extreme starting health (without rot) and no ammo or health pickups makes the game highly mutated from default gameplay. And these mutations can't be turned off, which sucks.

Rune is similar, only it has a kind of lame character class system based on the Rune modifiers. Instead character classes should be their own mutator and Rune should be a simple game of "Hold 'Em", where you try to keep the score orbs for as long as possible before someone else nails you and steals them. Because that's an interesting game in its own right. Plus the Runes' effects are not well balanced.

Regarding a larger playerbase, I think you are thinking of something akin to a UT3 sized crowd, or that of a similarly recent big name commercial game.

I'm thinking more along the lines of 4x Nexuiz' playerbase. That would make for fewer empty servers out there, perhaps (and hopefully) including some with gametypes beyond DM and CTF exclusively.

I don't see this being about advertising or traffic necessarily, more so about holding on to a larger, yet still single digit percentage of the number of folks who download the game (that traditionally don't stick around for very long at all). I'd say market research, rather than advertising, could be very useful here. Trying to figure out what could have held onto the players who disappeared; what were they looking for that they didn't find here.

I made a thread to comment about this advertisement/market research into why people did not play nexuiz.

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=499

If your interested, I didn't want to drag this topic off the directon Chryyz wanted it to go.

I made a thread to comment about this advertisement/market research into why people did not play nexuiz.

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=499

If your interested, I didn't want to drag this topic off the directon Chryyz wanted it to go.

So basically a discussion about "why the changes should be made" rather than "what changes could be made"

I made a thread to comment about this advertisement/market research into why people did not play nexuiz.

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=499

If your interested, I didn't want to drag this topic off the directon Chryyz wanted it to go.

So basically a discussion about "why the changes should be made" rather than "what changes could be made"

It's a much bigger discussion than you'd expect, because there seems to be a number of very vocal members of this community that protest any and every gameplay change made to Nexuiz/Xonotic, regardless of its size or merit. And this goes at least doubly so for anything movement related.

Yes Chryyz, because basically I don't think some people on this forum realise why I am suggesting such changes that I do..I'm not doing it just for the sake of it, so I am trying to give solid reasoning why and evidence why.

And basically what Flying Squirrel says:-

"because there seems to be a number of very vocal members of this community that protest any and every gameplay change made to Nexuiz/Xonotic, regardless of its size or merit. And this goes at least doubly so for anything movement related."

Well, before fixing something, you need to first determine if it is broke...

So Roanoke.. before fixing yourself a sandwich, you have to break it? (makes just abt as much sense as applying that overused proverb to the situation of CHANGE)

So Roanoke.. before fixing yourself a sandwich, you have to break it? (makes just abt as much sense as applying that overused proverb to the situation of CHANGE)

I actually hurt myself from laughing at that post..really my rib kills.

tZork you make me laugh

So Roanoke.. before fixing yourself a sandwich, you have to break it? (makes just abt as much sense as applying that overused proverb to the situation of CHANGE)

Your example does not work here. Prior to me making a sandwich, it does not exist. Now, If I had a perfectly good sandwich on hand, but with pickles, I would be crazy to make a new sandwich instead of just taking out the pickles.

So you're not going to eat those metaphorical pickles then?

No; they have no substance.

*bump* Because I'm drunk