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Reflection


#27
This has been a difficult time with very difficult decisions being made, I think it's safe to say we could all use a little break...
Over the past few days I have been discussing this a lot with friends and family, as well as doing some processing in my own time, and have since come to the conclusion that a lot of Martin's words are just a projection; it doesn't reflect me at all. Knowing that, with the overwhelming support from the people here and those around me, combined with the knowledge that the team is taking action, I don't believe my time away from Xonotic will be permanent.
However, I will still be taking some time from the game, as that feels like the right move for me.

On that note, I hope this concludes the subject; this is not goodbye forever!
I shall return when the time is right, best of luck to everyone sticking around to support the game and keep the flame alive, and thank you again to all who have been supportive here.
[Image: 230.png]

#28
I find the message of NoClue very interesting and I would like to go a little further.

"Although this is none of my business (and i don't know anything about this)" (NoClue)...

I think that the previous quote of bones_was_here is appropritate :
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

Mario asked a vote to bannish the harasser/troll. A lot of people did not take position.
If we complain and can not be listen, this is the worst thing.
That why I think that it is important to take position quickly, at the first attack.
The first attack is usually very light. You should be reactive, strict and punish quickly.
This is important that everybody understand the border between what can be said and what can not.
More you are tolerant and laxist, more the harassment will increase.

Asking a vote against an harasser is mentally difficult because the victim is afraid to get a bad image in the communauty.

I would say that taking position is always more difficult than doing nothing. That why, when we are attacked on the chat, we feel alone. People just does not care !

"i think the comments in the Poll and the comments here speak on your behalf" (NoClue)
"I don't think it looks as grim as you might think in terms of "no signs of stopping"." (NoClue)

=> Yes, NoClue. Now it is obvious. Everyone took position for Mario but we have to replace this in the context, in the time and to care about history !
At the beggining, when Mario complained for first time, when Mario has been attacked for the first time, he was alone.
Then he had to fight a lot ! He asked several vote, he send private message... Then he opened a forum thread here.
This process is very hard. And Mario felt injustice and was broken.
It is easy to take position after 1 or 2 month but it is hard to take position some minutes after the first attack!
That is why I said that you should be more strict. A problem always start with small attacks.
This is a kind of small attacks that we would think : "ah... this is nothing !" In reality, this is the begining of a giant fire, conflict.
Here, a victim have to deploy a giant energy to get justice! A troll have just to wait. That is why, I said that trolls seat like kings.

Furthermore, I will say that on this forum and in developper teams, you can ask vote. In the forum, there is a report button to notify abuse.
On the chat, and in the game, this is worst because we don't know how to complain, we can not contact moderator and we can not call a vote to bannish people.

I would also add that this situation is also bad for martin_t because if he would get a small punishement some months ago, he could change his behaviour.
This is not a good justice because he was directly sentensed to death penalty.
The justice should be gradual. For the first time, he should get a bannishement of 2 weeks... then 2 months...
A good justice should provide a chance to people to understand their errors.

#29
(03-14-2021, 11:27 AM)LaraCroft Wrote: The justice should be gradual. For the first time, he should get a bannishement of 2 weeks... then 2 months...
A good justice should provide a chance to people to understand their errors.

Lara, you know nothing about xonotic community yet you are always high on your judgements.

The poll wasn't about banning martin, the poll was about removing martin from xonotic team and this doesn't include any bans - neither on servers, nor in public IRC/discord, nor from gitlab. Extended team membership provides only the following rights:

 * right to create team polls
 * right to vote on team polls
 * right to participate in the internal team chat
 * OP status in #xonotic quakenet IRC channel.

So as you see, the scope of this action is very narrow.

Martin actually was banned for rather long time on WTWRP servers, the most popular public servers at the time of ban. Also we spent much effort into "soft methods" - we tried to persuade him to adjust his behavior which was clearly harming the community and the game as the whole. So your blatant judgmental "community did nothing against a troll" is just incorrect. Ofc you couldn't know it all, because you weren't in the community at that time, but if you don't know then why you judge? Yes, maybe we did make mistakes, but it's not up to you to judge us because you know nothing about the situation. Again, you only contribute hatred without any constructivity. Please stop, you really only making things worse.

#30
Lara, it's obvious what you're trying to do here: Once again you try to hijack a Topic to push your personal agenda. Imho you're nothing but a provocateur and you are way more dangerous to the xonotic community than some (even more obvious) trolls. I will ignore you from now on and i hope you'll do the same with me.

#31
"Lara, you know nothing about xonotic community yet you are always high on your judgements."...
"Yes, maybe we did make mistakes, but it's not up to you to judge us because you know nothing about the situation. Again, you only contribute hatred without any constructivity. Please stop, you really only making things worse." (morosophos)

"Lara, it's obvious what you're trying to do here: Once again you try to hijack a Topic to push your personal agenda. Imho you're nothing but a provocateur and you are way more dangerous to the xonotic community than some (even more obvious) trolls. I will ignore you from now on and i hope you'll do the same with me." (NoClue)

I was just disappointed to read the message of Mario. I find that it is not normal that he leave this communauty after being insulted and harassed.
Some weeks ago, I did the same, for the same reason.
I don't have agenda and I don't posted here to judge you morosophos. I don't care. If you feel faulty due to your previous choices and your previous votes and your errors, this is not a reason to attack me.
I just tried to explain how such situation can arrive... I gived my opinion on the justice process here, not on this specific case.
You should not take my remarks personnaly. Instead of this, your should see the constructives proposals I made.
So, Finally, I leave like Mario because I have enough of fighting always the same hostility.
Please, try to be nice with each other.

#32
(03-14-2021, 03:05 PM)LaraCroft Wrote: Some weeks ago, I did the same, for the same reason.
I think you should be a bit more careful with your judgment of the situation. I do not think this has much to do with your own experience which we discussed in your thread.

In this case, martin-t was part of the Xonotic extended team. He is not some random guy that popped up on a public server to troll Mario. And his role in the team weighs against swift action; rather exclusion from the team called for a team vote. You should rather think of this as a family issue: if you are in a deep conflict with a relative, kicking them out of the family is possible but not as simple as shutting down some stranger. And the consequences are heavier, if only on the family's morale. I can tell you no one is happy about the outcome of this vote.

I would also advise you to be careful when you characterize martin's behaviour as harassment. There is a long-standing interpersonal conflict between Mario and martin-t, and it is in such a tangle that both of them have told me to beware of the other's deceptiveness. I understand martin's initiative to document his issues with Mario; in fact this is not the first time I am seeing such a response being mounted, and I have sometimes sided with the person mounting such documentation. However, this is a destructive tactic and in my opinion it was unwarranted here. There should have been better ways to resolve this.

If I could go back in time I would have preferred to see a veto on the initial vote for martin's exclusion, to give some space for a charitable discussion focused on how to move forward and make amends, in the interest of the project. I hope this will be a lesson for everyone involved.


(03-14-2021, 01:56 PM)NoClue Wrote: Lara, it's obvious what you're trying to do here: Once again you try to hijack a Topic to push your personal agenda. Imho you're nothing but a provocateur and you are way more dangerous to the xonotic community than some (even more obvious) trolls. I will ignore you from now on and i hope you'll do the same with me.
I would be careful speaking about agendas here. Lara is approaching this issue from her own standpoint and experience, and in this case not being careful with it and projecting quite a bit as a result. I think it's possible to criticize this without resorting to inflammatory language.

#33
time for divverent to close another thread huh

#34
(03-14-2021, 06:06 PM)MusicGoat Wrote: time for divverent to close another thread huh

You're chewing on that popcorn a little too loudly.

Please everyone, let's keep this thread constructive alright?

#35
(03-14-2021, 05:58 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: If I could go back in time I would have preferred to see a veto on the initial vote for martin's exclusion, to give some space for a charitable discussion focused on how to move forward and make amends, in the interest of the project. I hope this will be a lesson for everyone involved.

The team members who voted against or abstained got that chance to discuss the situation further, but it just took 2 days to spawn the next vote. And suddenly everyone voted in favor of removing martin-t within 3 days. This sudden change in perspective/opinion seems a bit odd to me.

#36
I was one of the initial abstainers, and I don't feel bad about that. Removing a team member - whether core or extended - is a serious thing and shouldn't be taken lightly. 

Maybe I didn't give the issue as much attention as it deserved. Ultimately I felt it was "just" an interpersonal issue between two people, thus those two should work it out amongst themselves. We all know that didn't happen.
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#37
(03-14-2021, 09:35 PM)Mirio Wrote:
(03-14-2021, 05:58 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: If I could go back in time I would have preferred to see a veto on the initial vote for martin's exclusion, to give some space for a charitable discussion focused on how to move forward and make amends, in the interest of the project. I hope this will be a lesson for everyone involved.

The team members who voted against or abstained got that chance to discuss the situation further, but it just took 2 days to spawn the next vote. And suddenly everyone voted in favor of removing martin-t within 3 days. This sudden change in perspective/opinion seems a bit odd to me.

In my case that has an easy explanation - I failed to track the end of the vote exactly, but near the end of the vote martin PM-bombed me with more and more accusations about Mario again (and again with rather little substance). Already rather fed up by it, I decided to change my vote to yes, but slept over it. When I woke up and eventually logged on to IRC the next day, the vote had already ended, but I was still of the opinion to switch to yes. What bothered me most is that he did not just have accusations against Mario but also two others on the team "while at it" - it seemed more and more like he just wanted to disrupt the entire team (he probably didn't intend to, but well, that's the message that was received by more than just me).

Sorry, my fault for failing at tracking the time right.

Also, martin was given a chance to defend by the previous vote expiring, but evidence turned up that even AFTER the vote ended, he'd only used it for further attacks, not defense in any way - in fact he said rather clearly that he did not intend to defend himself in any way. That sealed the result for the others, who in their "no" justification merely said to give more time (as martin had asked for more time to provide arguments in defense).

As for "why just 3 days" - normally votes go for longer, but as a 2/3 majority was reached which ends the vote short.
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#38
As for other irregularities:

- Note how all the yes votes in the first vote were early and all the no votes were late. Martin "campaigned" trying to convince people who previously would have abstained to vote no near the deadline (which is understandable).
- To do this, he promised to defend when given time to fo do.
- When he then said he had no intent to defend, the basis of these no votes was gone and the result predictable.
- Aforementioned "campaigning" included setting up a git repo with chat logs, and multiple screenfuls of unsolicited PMs to multiple people. For me the mere amount of text with no new information beyond "these two simply don't get along" and "wow, that's some impressive cyberstalking" brought me over the tipping point, as I said above, and I wouldn't be surprised if others too.
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#39
(03-14-2021, 09:35 PM)Mirio Wrote: The team members who voted against or abstained got that chance to discuss the situation further, but it just took 2 days to spawn the next vote. And suddenly everyone voted in favor of removing martin-t within 3 days. This sudden change in perspective/opinion seems a bit odd to me.
Doesn't seem too odd to me. I flipped my vote because I couldn't see another way forward after martin's response. The regrets I expressed were exactly about that: I wish he could have seen another more appropriate way to respond as a team member.

Thanks Antibody and divVerent for providing your perspectives.

@Mario, I realize I forgot to respond to your original post, so let me say I appreciate how you have carried much of the project lately, and I hope you will enjoy your time away from it even though it is not a decision you made lightheartedly. Burning out like that sucks, Please be safe.

#40
What the 

There I was, digging work heavily for some time. I lost my favorite RSS feed plugin due to some stupid browser update and didn't find the time to repair the settings so I didn't get forum updates regularly. Only now I see some "healing" post and wonder. I apparently missed a couple of first class dramas on the forums. Turns out two people left (if not more, haven't gone through the whole post, admittedly) that I valued very much for all of their contributions to the Xonotic project.


In case you still read this M*rios, thank you so much for all you have done for Xonotic! I wish people would just stop working against each other and instead respect each other's differences. I'm not saying one has to agree at all times with everybody but I found it a good basic rule to make negative statements about people only when they are actually participating in the very same discussion (That obviously does not cover insults which I find generally inappropriate). Maybe that's just my silly naive little fantasy of a colorful world with flying ponies and stuff.

@Mirio: I sort of grew attached to the idea of you being around in this community. I don't know how long I know you already (your online identity, that is), but looking at your stats profile I have hopes that our paths will cross again :o)
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