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A certain server seems to manipulate stats of it's players by not listing some games

#1
Check this out https://stats.xonotic.org/server/41070
It shows as if yesterday evening there was no games, when in reality I was stomping them for more than a hour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG70vBpXIqo . They list only games when it's them winning (I guess it's some community of sorts because they often come and go together). It's either they blacklisted me or have a whitelist of themselves (to bump ratings etc).
Not the first time. So stats shows my score very low despite me absolutely stomping most of them, it's hilarious.
Now now, you can say video doesn't prove anything, but feel free to come and spectate while I'm there and then check if game appeared on stats. Thats me https://stats.xonotic.org/player/232766 , and btw you can see I won most of games on that server until they just stopped listing them, kek. (Or is something wrong with my account?)

Or is there some bug or something else I don't know about?

Btw, why would anyone even manipulate stats, is it just for ego or can they use these stats somewhere somehow?
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#2
This server is sort of new and I have been on it last week while the admin changes config and stuff.

I can't tell you exactly how this would randomly break the stats, but it probably just does.

You can be fairly certain that it is not done intentionally.
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#3
(08-02-2022, 10:07 AM)ballerburg9005 Wrote: This server is sort of new and I have been on it last week while the admin changes config and stuff.

I can't tell you exactly how this would randomly break the stats, but it probably just does.

You can be fairly certain that it is not done intentionally.

Maybe, it's just funny how NONE of games I won yesterday got listed, while games right before I joined and after are listed consistently.

Tbh the whole stats.xonotic.org is 100% unreliable and I don't see a way to make it reliable if it relies on server admins being honest. Maybe if there was some binary server package protected against tinkering and stats collected only from those but I guess it's not possible/viable. That's how it worked in UT2004 so stats were much better there (I used to run a server).
If xonotic had reliable stats we could even have some matchmaking based on skill (once more players came), something to think about.
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#4
Author of stats.xonotic.org here. To call it "unreliable" isn't exactly fair. Unlike other games, Xonotic is fully open and extensible down to the lowest level. It's normal and in fact totally commonplace for server admins to modify their settings to suit their needs. That means we can't have certain "nice things" in stats that we'd ideally want. One of those thing is global matchmaking! Generally speaking, stats avoids aggregating things at a global level for precisely this reason. There's no global ranks, global CTF capture time records, global race records, and the like. Instead what you have is a player-centric view of things, and even then it is subject to server admin configuration (you can play on a server all you want, but if that server doesn't opt in to sending stats you're not going to see a shred of data).

To provide an overly simplistic example of what I'm talking about: I can run a server where I enforce a ruleset where only the blaster weapon is allowed. Should I be blocked from submitting stats? Obviously our current stance on this is "no, glhf".

Now back to your "no games where I won show up" complaint. I have not heard of anyone altering their server to that extent. Are you sure that's what's happening? I'm not saying it is not *possible* because anything is possible technically speaking, but I am saying it is highly unlikely. Might I suggest on playing on a different server in that case?

In the past we've discussed separating stats submissions by their "purity" in that the stats system would only accept/matchmake/rank things that conform to a fixed ruleset, with that ruleset being determined by the Xonotic team. That was almost unanimously rejected by the community in favor of what we have today: a stats implementation that dutifully records what is sent to it. 

So, you can basically take it or leave it. It's what I'd call a "best faith" effort in that sense, and it is very much consistent at a server-local level. We definitely rely on our server admin community members to offer a certain level of consistency such that the players they house can have something valid to compare against.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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#5
(08-05-2022, 07:36 AM)Antibody Wrote: Author of stats.xonotic.org here. To call it "unreliable" isn't exactly fair. Unlike other games, Xonotic is fully open and extensible down to the lowest level. It's normal and in fact totally commonplace for server admins to modify their settings to suit their needs. That means we can't have certain "nice things" in stats that we'd ideally want. One of those thing is global matchmaking! Generally speaking, stats avoids aggregating things at a global level for precisely this reason. There's no global ranks, global CTF capture time records, global race records, and the like. Instead what you have is a player-centric view of things, and even then it is subject to server admin configuration (you can play on a server all you want, but if that server doesn't opt in to sending stats you're not going to see a shred of data).

To provide an overly simplistic example of what I'm talking about: I can run a server where I enforce a ruleset where only the blaster weapon is allowed. Should I be blocked from submitting stats? Obviously our current stance on this is "no, glhf".

Now back to your "no games where I won show up" complaint. I have not heard of anyone altering their server to that extent. Are you sure that's what's happening? I'm not saying it is not *possible* because anything is possible technically speaking, but I am saying it is highly unlikely. Might I suggest on playing on a different server in that case?

In the past we've discussed separating stats submissions by their "purity" in that the stats system would only accept/matchmake/rank things that conform to a fixed ruleset, with that ruleset being determined by the Xonotic team. That was almost unanimously rejected by the community in favor of what we have today: a stats implementation that dutifully records what is sent to it. 

So, you can basically take it or leave it. It's what I'd call a "best faith" effort in that sense, and it is very much consistent at a server-local level. We definitely rely on our server admin community members to offer a certain level of consistency such that the players they house can have something valid to compare against.

Hmmm. So what happens if somebody wants to get himself perfect stats? He can just make his own server and post stats only of games where he won, right? Then he'll have 100% winrate and number of wins will just go up, with zero losses. So it means anyone with enough motivation can completely fake their stats, no?
As for that particular server, it seems they have a certain community (Archlinux-related?) because I see same people playing there and I haven't seen them on other servers often. So it's possible they could have made some kind of whitelist for themselves? I don't know why, maybe they want to have some ratings amongst only themselves on their server. But that means for everyone else their server will worsen stats because only losses will be recorded.
Anyway, I'll keep testing this server more and maybe make some statistics.
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#6
I miss UT2004 a lot Smile  - too bad they didn't keep it up.

I think that the xon-stats-code is being actively developed and bugs are eventually ironed out. Work in progress.
FAF - COPENHAGEN - DENMARK - GNU/Linux  Heart
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#7
(08-13-2022, 02:50 AM)FAF Wrote: I miss UT2004 a lot Smile  - too bad they didn't keep it up.

I think that the xon-stats-code is being actively developed and bugs are eventually ironed out. Work in progress.

It's not even bugs, it's just giving control over stats to server owners and they can be shady and misbehaving.
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#8
(08-13-2022, 04:34 AM)nj Wrote:
(08-13-2022, 02:50 AM)FAF Wrote: I miss UT2004 a lot Smile  - too bad they didn't keep it up.

I think that the xon-stats-code is being actively developed and bugs are eventually ironed out. Work in progress.

It's not even bugs, it's just giving control over stats to server owners and they can be shady and misbehaving.

OK, let's hope that the package will evolve into something which is more usable.
FAF - COPENHAGEN - DENMARK - GNU/Linux  Heart
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