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Collecting opinions about good competetive Duel-Map

#1
So, I just found Xonotic by accident trougn ESReality (they've postet a news about the 0.1peview or were it the dev dunno now) and I instantly tought "Holysh!t this is 1337-Game, CPMA movement, sick GFX, nice weapons and it's free!!!! Can't belive it". Don't get me wrong, I'm not a beginner or noob in FPS (I'm newb in Xonotic but that will change soon I hope), playing CPMA Duel, War§ow Duel, Painkiller Duel and Quake Live Duel on a regular basis, so I know something about duel and maps for it (I also tried out Nexuiz in it's newest release but the movement just did not suit me and I did not like how "dead" the competetive aspect was hopefully this will change with Xonotic).

Now I want to contribute to this awsome game by creating a nice duel-map mainly for competition cuz I think none of the stock-maps is usable for it (imo).

However as I said I'm new to Xonotic and I don't really know a lot about duels in it, and this tread should help me wit getting an idea what I should look for in my map.

First of all it's not about layout or gfx part but more about the other features that make a great duel map. So lets start with my questions:

1. General: As I know NetRadiant was used for mapping in Nexuiz, did something change with Xonotic or is it still NetRadian?

2. Duel-Weapons: From my point of view not all weapons are suited for duel in Xonotic. I find the Rocket Launcher, the hagar, the crylink and the minstanex not really usable in Duel, eighter because they are simply too powerfull (minsta) or don't make sence in a small map (rocket launcher).
I'm not shure with the names of the weapons and the actual weapon so I will write it down here:

1. Laser

Mostly for movement no use in real combat.

2. Shotgun

Standart Weapon with shoot and melee functions, in duel pretty good for finishing weak opponent.

3. Machine Gun

Nothing special but used in every other actual Duel FPS, so it can be used in the map.

4. Motar

Combo between a Grenade Laucher and a better Rocket Launcher. For me it is the ultimate Weapon for duel, it's flying arc in primary firemode makes it much more easy for me to hit airshots than with Rocket Laucher and its secondary fire is a must in every duel map since you can cut off oponents with spam.

5. Electro

Yes! The Shaft found its way into Nexuiz/Xonotic!!! I'm a happy little dueler. Primary Mode is a absolute must for Duel, secondary srongly reminds me of the good old stake-nades from Painkiller, shoot secondary in the air and hit hem with primary then be happy with he "Biep"-Hitsound Smile.

6. Crylink

Well it's like Nailgun from Quake Live or Strong Shotgun from Quake World, no real need for it in Duel imo.

7. Hlac

What the f**k is this? Never had the pleasure to use it ingame so someone please explain what it is, thx!

8. Hagar

Pimped up Rocket Launcher, no need in it if we have Motar! (imo)

9. Rocket Launcher

Simply too slow and somewhat to strong for duel imo.

10. Nex

Some kind of a Rail Gun and imo needed in Duel, alternative is the Sniper Rifle altough i don't know which is stronger.

11. Minstanex

Way to strong, would turn the match into "I got Minsta I gonna rape you from distance" game.

12. Mine Launcher

No, simply no. This is usefull in CTF but not in Duel.

If I forgot something tell me.

Now what I want to know from you guys is: What weapons would you use? For me its Laser; Shotgun; Rifle; Motar; Electro; Nex/Sniper Rifle, this would keep the ammount of weapons on the map low and the map would not be overfilled with weapons/ammo.

3. Ramors and health:

From what I've tested. Armor in Xonotic is splited in 5AP (Plates for shoulders) 25AP (Helmet) 50 AP(Chest Armor) and 100AP (Complete Armor) packs and it stacks up to 150AP from where it decreases to 100Ap. Health is split up in 5HP, 25, 50 HP and 100HP Crosses and stacks up to 250 from where it decreases back to 100 over time.
However in terms of armor the Shoulderplates can stack up to 150 but helmet only can stack up to 25 max, chestplate only up to 50 and bodyarmor up to 100. So from that I guess that it is only usefull to put up 1-2 Helmets, 1-2 Chestplates, 1 Bodyarmor and some Shoulderplates on a map but not more?

That's it with my questions so far and I expect to get a working alpha up in 1-2 weeks (I allready have a layout building up in my head Wink).

At the end I want to remind you that this is a competetive map project so no fun-weapons should be used on the things that matter in duel.

Thx for feedback.
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#2
HLAC is a full-auto laser, with a little less push and little more damage.

The Hagar is not really even related to the RL, except for ammo. Think of it more like a machine gun that shoots bigger bullets at lower speed and rate with higher spread. Actually closely related to the HLAC, except secondary can bounce.

Crylink is actually quite effective, especially in close quarters. If you get all the projectiles of primary (which is bouncy also, btw) on the enemy, it can be a killer. Requires some skill to use, because you have to lead your target. Secondary is like a horizontal machine gun, but it doesn't bounce.

The health/armor system is now way more complicated and designed to prevent domination of a map. The largest change is the 25-point health and armors, also the 50 armor. The 25hp will only let you pick them up to 100. Shards and 5-point health units will let you stack much higher.

The Rifle vs Nex argument is a big one. Nex (the railgun) has falloff with distance, but can be charged up with secondary. It's a hitscan weapon. Rifle is not hitscan, but travels very fast, so it requires very little lead. The rifle has clips (with either 10 or 8 shots, I can't remember) but is advantageous in that it can score headshots which do more damage that bodyshots. If you kill someone with a headshot with a Nex, the info panel will display it but it does the same damage all over the body. The secondary of Rifle is silenced, but does less damage. Nobody I've met uses it.

NetRadiant is still used for mapping, but you need to grab the latest version. Note: Your out of luck if your on Mac, nobody's compiled it for that yet.

One more thing, Xonotic is disassociating itself with the Nexuiz name because of the Illfonic licensing issue. Don't use them interchangeably.

Last thing: you forgot about Seeker and Fireball! Big Grin
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#3
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 11. Minstanex

Way to strong, would turn the match into "I got Minsta I gonna rape you from distance" game.

lol Big Grin
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#4
Thank you for the replys guys Smile.

1st to nowego:

Ok I'll concider what you have told me about the weapons.
About the armors: Shards=Shoulderplates they give 5AP, Helmet gives 25AP and stacks up to 100AP, Chestplate gives 50AP and can not be stacked over 50AP, Body Armor gives 100, max. Armor is 150 from where it decreases to 100, right so far?
And about Fireball and Seeker, those are fun weapons whith no balance at all Smile.

2nd to rainer:

Does this lol mean that I'm totally right or that I don't know shit? Smile

Peace
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#5
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 1. General: As I know NetRadiant was used for mapping in Nexuiz, did something change with Xonotic or is it still NetRadian?

Its still the the same

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 7. Hlac
What the f**k is this? Never had the pleasure to use it ingame so someone please explain what it is, thx!
the primary is like the plasma rifle in q3 and the secondary is like the flac canon from UT.

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 11. Minstanex
Way to strong, would turn the match into "I got Minsta I gonna rape you from distance" game.
This weapon is just for the minsta mode.
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#6
So I probably should concider taking Hlac in. Hmm getting too many good weapons in I think :/, would like to have a max of 5 maybe 6 weapons lying around in the map plus the two spawnweapons (total of 7/8)... We'll see Smile.

And yea Minstanex is for Insta only I remember Smile.

Ok see you guys tomorrow.

Peace
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#7
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: That's it with my questions so far and I expect to get a working alpha up in 1-2 weeks (I allready have a layout building up in my head Wink).

At the end I want to remind you that this is a competetive map project so no fun-weapons should be used on the things that matter in duel.

somehow that sounds very familiar to me. You are not the first one who brought up such a idea.
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#8
Well as I said I'm new to this game Smile, did not know that there were some people trying the same before.

However I'm a comp-player in duel and the Xonotic stock maps are not suited for this aspect of the game (yet) so I want to help building up this part of the game.

Duel is (arguably) the most advanced and dificult mode to master in every FPS. It takes movement+aim+brain and the brain must work at the same speed you move and shoot to be succesfull in this game mode. So the maps for it need to reflect exactly this. They need to be tricky to master in terms of movement and they need to encourage smart play (that's why there only need to be several and suited weapons and no fun weapons).

I'm quite familliar with fast paced duel (thanks to CPMA) so I know what normal duel players want to see (atleast I think so and if I do it wrong, there is still the community who actually tests the maps and can tell me what I did wrong).

I'm almost certain that I can finish my map and I hope that it will be good for competetive duel, however I need your help to achive this Smile.

Peace
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#9
there are some 1on1 maps which are made for nexuiz/xonotic

for example
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1314
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=597
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=334
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=979
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#10
I would put the RL on your maps really, I'm one of the most experinced nexuiz/xonotic dueller's about, the weapon is strong yes but when used correctly it also add's new elements of skill using it, it's a great allround defensive/attacking weapon.

Also, as someone stated above the crylink is also a very useful weapon. Try not to compare the weapons to other game's you've played and how those weapon's are not on duel maps.

Every weapon is good when wielded in the right situation in the correct way, although I agree the 'fun' weapons shouldn't be in competitive maps for obvious reason's but all of the 9 (10 including sniper) standard weapon's should get used for duel maps, perhaps not every weapon on the map, but definitely over several maps.

P.S, Stormkeep is quite a good duelmap Smile
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#11
Its "Mortar" ! Tongue
Anyway, you forgot some weapons - so I guess you don't know them yet. Smile
- If you open the console (shift+esc) before you start a game type into it
Code:
sv_cheats 1
and press enter.
- Then you go to the "Create" menu and start a game.
- Now you open the console again and type
Code:
impulse 99
and enter again.
Then you get all weapons and you can test them. Smile

TAG Seeker; Grappling Hook; Port-O-Launch; Fireball for example.
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#12
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 6. Crylink

Well it's like Nailgun from Quake Live or Strong Shotgun from Quake World, no real need for it in Duel imo.
Well, it does prove to be useful sometimes due to all the bouncing projectiles. Or spamming the secondary at a corner. Or just going straight for the target when you have a clear shot, if you hit when the projectiles are focused it hurts a lot. You can choose to have a high chance of hitting but relatively low damage (let go of the mouse button early), or go for a more focused shot with a higher chance of missing (let go of mouse button shortly before projectiles would hit opponent).

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 7. Hlac

What the f**k is this? Never had the pleasure to use it ingame so someone please explain what it is, thx!
Someone also explain to me what this weapon is for, or why it's a better choice than e.g. Hagar Tongue

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 8. Hagar
Pimped up Rocket Launcher, no need in it if we have Motar! (imo)
Some change is always good. Smile
Maybe that also contradicts my HLAC argument Big Grin

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 9. Rocket Launcher
Simply too slow and somewhat to strong for duel imo.
The too slow part sort of balances it out. It's weaker than e.g. the Q3 rocketlauncher, btw. ("only" 82 damage from a direct hit, almost halved damage if you use the remote detonation function)

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 11. Minstanex
Way to strong, would turn the match into "I got Minsta I gonna rape you from distance" game.
Minsta is absolutely not a weapon that should be placed on any remotely serious map. It only exists for the "minstagib" mutator, where everyone spawns with the minstanex and no other weapons are available.

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: 12. Mine Launcher
No, simply no. This is usefull in CTF but not in Duel.
I can agree with you here, it's not a good weapon for duel maps. But it works well in almost any team game, perhaps with the exception of TDM.
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: Now what I want to know from you guys is: What weapons would you use? For me its Laser; Shotgun; Rifle; Motar; Electro; Nex/Sniper Rifle, this would keep the ammount of weapons on the map low and the map would not be overfilled with weapons/ammo.
Oh you mean only for one map? Yeah, don't dump every weapon in the game into one single map, ever. Other than that, almost any weapon is good for a Duel map, except the ones ruled out above (minstanex, mine layer, sniper rifle, maybe TAG seeker, the @#$%'n Tuba!)
(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: So from that I guess that it is only usefull to put up 1-2 Helmets, 1-2 Chestplates, 1 Bodyarmor and some Shoulderplates on a map but not more?
That sounds about right.

(12-28-2010, 03:48 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: That's it with my questions so far and I expect to get a working alpha up in 1-2 weeks (I allready have a layout building up in my head Wink).
Looking forward to it! Smile
We need maps, maps, and more maps!

Edit: I'm also one of the relatively few duelers around. Hope we can build a strong competitive community! Smile
(12-28-2010, 07:25 PM)kojn^ Wrote: P.S, Stormkeep is quite a good duelmap Smile

I'd say stormkeep is absolutely the largest a duel map should be, but it was made a little smaller (at least feels so) by the addition of the warpzone instead of a teleporter, since you can now shoot through there. But yeah it's a good duel map other than that. Smile

Agree with WTFProoF that the other official maps aren't really good for duels. Need more good maps for duel! Smile
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#13
I don't really think stormkeep is that big, it's just a slower paced map then aggresor for example which is really small, vertical and very fast and spammy.

Stormkeep is more about sensible item control and thinking, whilst aggressor is more about brute force and spawnkills, that's why I like them both although aggressor doesn't feel quite the same in Xonotic, it feel's even harder to play 1on1 on now cause of the pace of the game.

For me, Xonotic is more like CPM/Warsow movement, but combat (for me) feels more like UT but I really like it, it's it's own game.

But for sure, we need some more duel maps, and I need to get back into activity and learning maps Smile
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#14
I look foreword to seeing your work Smile

just out of curiosity, what in your opinion, constitutes a good duel map? (in terms of layout, design, etc)
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#15
I only can tell you some names from other fast FPS which i really enjoy.

Quake World:

DM4

CPMA:

cpm24 or cpm3a (cpm15 is also fun)

Painkiller:

DM_Blink

Warsow

wdm6 and wdm5

That are the maps I really enjoy to play.
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#16
Regarding the sniper rifle/nex issue:

Only put ONE of these on a serious map.

If the map has large open areas (e.g. red-planet, space-elevator, dance), put the sniper rifle as it is more useful at a distance.

If the map does not, put the Nex as it is more useful in close combat.
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#17
We also need more DM maps in general for 4-8 player's or more so don't stop at just duel maps Smile

Not all have to be for competition though, some nice bigger dm/tdm map's would be cool, something where the style is still sci-fi but maybe outdoor bit's too, or industrial/sci-fi.
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#18
We'll also be getting soylent back sometime, Rad Ished is working on a remake.

That's like the greatest duel map ever Smile
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#19
No, NO IT 'S NOT!

Although I am looking forward to just seeing what the new version will look/play like.
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#20
I'm not much of dueler, so I wouldn't know, but I was told by a lot of (Nexuiz) players that it was great for that, I also understand that aggressor is a good duel map as well. The old soylent had a lot of awesome trickjumps, that's what I like about it.

I guess it depends on who you ask. What's your favorite duel map?
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#21
The Map I saw the most Duel potential in Nexuiz was "Final Rage". Soylent is not a good Duel map imo because it is a space map and space maps are generally nod suited for Duel I think.
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#22
(12-30-2010, 01:17 PM)WTFProoF Wrote: The Map I saw the most Duel potential in Nexuiz was "Final Rage". Soylent is not a good Duel map imo because it is a space map and space maps are generally nod suited for Duel I think.

I use to be a regular dueler, and I hated soylent. I disliked final rage mostly because the megas were very close together and too easily chained. I really enjoyed playing on cpm converts though.
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#23
I think one of the most over looked and under thought about aspect in duel maps is item placement. It doesn't really matter what weapons/amounts of health/armor you place in a a map, just that they are placed in a balanced way. You want to create a map where different strategies are all viable. An example of a map that's bad with this is Final Rage. The closeness of all 3(!?) megas makes it very easy to get them all, making prioritizing timing and getting all of them the only viable strategy. Now you can do some variation on the timing of the items, and there's a lot of thought that can go into stringing these 3 items together in different orders and at different times. In the end, with players of equal skill, Final Rage becomes a fancy version of pacman, which imo is bad and boring. This may or may not be a reduced issue with Xonotic's health and armor cap. The closeness of all the "good" weapons in the large open room make it even harder to come back and any decent player once in control of the map should never lose it, saving mistakes or incredible series of shots by the other person.

Another issue that receives no thought in the map making process is the balance of initial spawn locations. Take Stormkeep. Unless the spawns changed from stormkeep2, there is at least 1 spawn that immediately puts you at a huge disadvantage. The spawn in the back corner by the crylink. It's equally far away from everything, the two megas, the rl, the nex, the mortar, etc. The only thing you can reliably grab is the crylink while you know your opponent spawns in a position to take the arguably better items easily, maybe even 2! Also with final rage, there is a spawn in the very back of the small room's back coridor, again far from everything, while there are several spawns where you can grab the nex, the rl, and two megas faster than you can get to the mortar from that bad spawn.

In summary, the important parts of a good duel map that are often overlooked are:
1. Proper and balanced item placement.
2. A variety of viable and executable strategies, not just variations on the same idea.
3. Balanced initial spawns (I don't know if it'd be possible to balance spawn beyond that point,also the possibility of having only certain spawns available for the start of the match.)

My favorite nexuiz 1v1 map was runningman, maybe the 1v1 remix, don't remember, but I think this map might suffer from too many megas. The best 1v1 map I've played, hands down is Aerowalk. Also I really like more vertical game play versus the slightly not horizontal gameplay of maps like stormkeep.
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#24
Ok I have drawn up a layout allready and tought quite a bit about itemplacement.

First of all, with saying that "Final Rage" had the most potential of all Nexuiz-Maps I ment the layout and the game-speed possible on the map. With Xonotics movement it would become even more fast-paced map and I personally love maps in wich you can moove fast and for me movement is always a very important thing in duel, that sometimes can win you games (in +forward- aswell as in +back-mode). In terms of Item layout "Final Rage" was simply shit. But this was kind of a must with the way Nexuiz Armor- and Health-System worked, sry but tracking HP up to something like 300 and same with armor?! That simply can't make matches balanced!

If you want to see what kind of architecture my map will have you should install UT2004 and play some games on DM-1on1-Spirit. My map will have 4 height-tiers, 3 big and a small connection room. All rooms will be connected with big open arcs on ground-tier and smaller hallways on the upper-tiers.

As for Item Placement I allready can tell some numbers:

1x Body Armor (100AP)
1x Chest Armor (50AP)
2x Helmet (25AP each)
5-7x Shards (5AP each)

In total there will be 235AP on the Map.

1x Mega Health (100HP)
1x Big Health (50HP)
4x Medium Health (25HP each)
5-7x Small Health (5HP each)

Overall there will be about 285HP on the Map.

1x Assault Rifle
1x Motar
1x Electro
1x CryLink
1x Rocket Launcher
1x Hagar

And enough Ammo for all the weapons (atleast 2 Crates of each type but there will be more than 2 crates of rockets/grenades)

There won't be a Nex/Sniper Rifle because the map will be very open on the ground-tier and the addition of a Nex/SR would turn fights on ground-tier into snipe-battles.

Tell me what you think about Items cuz that's the point where I need help in Xonotic-Mapping.

And btw., after some bot-games on "Stormkeep" I think it could be a really good duel map, if the ammount of items around the map would get lowered a little (you cant sneek around in the ground-tiers (catacombs) because you allways will pick some kind of health/armor or ammo up because the stuff is placed in the middle of the hallway).
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#25
I don't know how we managed before this guy turned up.
nomnomnomnonmonm:
"the best trolls are indistinguishable from idiots"
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