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A breakdown of two major balances (Fruitiex and LeeStricklin)

#1
Like I said in another post, this is from my point of view so no matter how fair I try to be, it will mostly likely be biased in some way. Anyway, I still think this will be useful to post as it gives a better description of what I think of balanceFruit/Fruitphys and how I ended up with balanceLeeStrickln/ModifiedFruitphys. Now, for an all so freakin' huge wall-of-text.


balanceFruit/Fruitphys
-------------------------------------

Overview: You've altered the game tremendously with both good and bad changes. There's quite a bit of good, but it's buried deep under all of the bad. I've seen maps broken by this config as well which is not good.

Movement/physics: Feels like Call of Duty until you start bunnyhopping and the transition between run to bunnyhop is frickin' ridiculous to the point where you basically have to hop every inch of any given map if don't want to be immobilized. Speed up the run speed to something we're more familiar with and do something about that ridiculous gap (2.5 probably got it right). Fall damage is also annoying, maybe make it more forgiving without stripping it completely? Those things are holding an otherwise amazing physics file back. Jumping would probably need to be tweaked as well so that it feels right if the run speed is increased. Believe it or not yours actually seems like it would be more annoying for newcomers due to it being hard to move.

Health and armor systems: It's now a royal pain in the you know what to grab an enemy's resources or stack yourself for a fight. So hard in fact, that if there aren't any megas camping actually becomes viable strategy due to the difficulty/lack of incentive to grab health. The caps have also failed to improve teamplay.

Weapon Switching: Too irritating to combo for me to even put in the effort of doing so.

Weapon Fire Rates: Too slow for the most part with the exception of the machine gun (which is over the top) and HLAC (which seems perfect).

Laser (Blaster): P E R F E C T- DO NOT MESS WITH IT

Shotgun: The amount of pellets this thing spits out is a bit questionable. While it makes it more like a "real" shotgun, it makes it a balancing nightmare due to it having to become excessively weak (even useless) at medium ranges and beyond while being absolutely lethal at close and point blank ranges. Not a fan of the slow fire rate either, especially since all the old ones (2.4's especially) fired a hell of a lot faster and the current model looks like a three-barreled street-sweeper. The melee is pretty cool and was implemented under my file as well.

Machine Gun: Primary fire rate is ridiculous. Don't know whether I'm for or against the secondary burst fire. I guess it's just a personal preference depending on player, but since the old slow-fire mode was more familiar I stuck with that one in my balance.

Crylink: Broken in my opinion, but there's hope for it. The twist you put on the primary is interesting, but needs tweaking so that most can just pick up and use the weapon. The HLAC already has something that is WAY TOO SIMILAR to the secondary. Maybe this would be a good weapon to move the lightning secondary to?

Mortar (Grenade Launcher): Secondary nades seem a bit heavy, but I'll probably get used to that. Not too big of an issue really.

Hagar: Not liking this one. It seemed like a good idea to make it more effective for taking down aerial targets. Unfortunately it's useless in too many situations where it should be useful (really hard to pin somebody to a wall now) and absolutely deadly in situations where it shouldn't be (it's a berserk weapon now).

Electro: Rage Guy FFFFFUUUUUUUUU- Fruitiex, you broke it. The secondary is now USELESS and the primary doesn't feel right. Should definitely restore this weapon.

Rifle (Sniper Rifle/Carbine): OK so what exactly does the secondary do? In my opinion a panic fire like what was in previous Nexuiz releases (and like the one in my file) would be better. Make it act more like a carbine as opposed to a sniper rifle and it should be fine, even if it shares a range of effectiveness with the nex.

Nex (Long Bow/Railgun): Gear it to long-extreme range, else we have a balancing nightmare on our hands. Also the charge feature still needs some work, maybe something similar to Halo's plasma pistol? Don't know, but if your up to it, it's worth a try. It should definitely cost ammo to charge though.

Rocket Launcher: Might as well get rid of the guided feature given how useless it is now that the rockets have been sped up more like 2.3's.

HLAC (Portable Spam Factory): Looks like an HLAC, acts like an HLAC. Got no complaints here Smile

Mine Layer: I'll need to toy around with this a bit more.

T.A.G. Seeker: Same as mine layer, I'll need to toy around with it a bit more.

FIREBALL!11!!one!: Doesn't really matter how messed up it is since it isn't used yet. It's totally screwed up under my file.









balanceLeeStricklin/ModifiedFruitphys
-------------------------------------

Overview: Designed to preserve what made me fall in love with Nexuiz in the first place and later brought in features introduced by you as well as sane caps (with limits copy/pasted from your file actually). Under this file nothing really sits still for very long do to you wanting to loot the arena most of the time and effective weapons draining ammo fast. There also isn't a single map that I know of that's been broken under this config, outside of ones that REQUIRE the old step height (such as Block Scape).

Movement/physics: Initially intended to emulate Nexuiz 2.4.2 and then later changed to what it is now. Currently this is built off of a lightly modified fruitphys file mostly with the run speed, jump, and acceleration changed. It allows you to mix and match different movements where you see fit. An example of this would be me using bunnyhopping to cruise, running to fight, and jumping to dodge. Most of this (outside of cruising) isn't really doable under your config. In spite the higher speed, this may be more noob friendly due to it being easier to get around the arenas.

Health and armor systems: eh hehehe... It's a rather ridiculous setup, but daaamn does it work! You spawn with 200 health, it rots down to 100, but can be stacked to 300. From the second you spawn you have incentive to move around the arenas and grab what you can. It is strictly a skill contest as to who gets scraped off the walls and who gets out of the arena in one piece. Spawn kills don't come easy, but at the same time it's equally hard to take down someone who's been in the arena for some time. The armor isn't as ridiculous as health and a bit more straightforward. You can stack that to 200 stable and 250 with rot.

Weapon Switching: COMBO WHORING! Only the nex has a slight delay in it, but it's EXTREMELY subtle and not noticeable. The subtle delayed is used with the fire delay to prevent the weapon from being abused like it was in Nexuiz, but doesn't destroy combo possibilities with it.

Weapon Fire Rates: Closer to what they were in Nexuiz 2.4.2.

Laser (Blaster): Movement-I thought it was good... Until I saw the new one you have. I'll be trying to replicate that. As a weapon-This can also be used as a force weapon and is still effective for fighting if you don't have anything more precise than a shotgun, but just about any other weapon will dominate over it so it should only be used in the rare occasions where it's most useful or as a last resort weapon.

Shotgun: Basically an anti-suck version of 2.4's shotgun. That melee made balancing the weapon easy and is pretty kick ass when used right. This is mostly an all-around weapon that doesn't dominate a particular situation, but is pretty useful no matter what. It will keep you alive long enough to grab other guns.

Machine Gun: Acts mostly like it did in previous versions of Nexuiz. The main difference is that it has negative force which pulls players a little with each shot.

Crylink: Mostly like it was in 2.5, but the primary was given an extra bounce.

Mortar (Grenade Launcher): Tweaked the secondary to fire slightly faster to give more incentive to use it. When done properly, you can setup a small trap by using the secondary and then using the primary. It's a skill that comes rather quickly.

Hagar: Mostly like how it was in the past, but chews up ammo at an alarming rate.

Electro: Only real difference is that I made the secondary stutter a bit to make it feel like your stressing the weapon. There's also a delay in detonating the balls that I don't know how ended up in the file, but I'll live with it as it seems to actually be balanced better this way.

Rifle (Sniper Rifle/Carbine): Geared mostly as a carbine/scout weapon. Primary fires a powerful, yet hard to land shot. Head shot does extra damage. The secondary is a panic fire that can unload a magazine quickly, but does DRASTICALLY less damage. That's mostly used for when you get rushed so that you can do some damage before readying another weapon. Secondary is also useful as a finisher as well.

Nex (Long Bow/Railgun): Currently needs some work, because it's too weak. However this was geared as a long-extreme range weapon where the rifle was geared more like a carbine/scout weapon for medium-long range. Requires an entirely different skill set than the rifle. If you have the skill, it's a good combo weapon. Any other time though it's suicide to use this at anything less than medium-long range.

Rocket Launcher: Acts mostly like it did in the past, but you do more damage (only a little though, I think 15 is the exact value) with a direct hit as opposed to a detonated rocket.

HLAC (Portable Spam Factory): Looks like an HLAC, acts like an HLAC.

Mine Layer: Did almost nothing to this and was surprised how well it played under my file. Don't see any need to tweak it more.

T.A.G. Seeker: Need to increase damage.

FIREBALL!11!!one!: Didn't really touch, but plan to do so if/when it's finished.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#2
@Samual: Own3d, your balance is not "major" Big Grin

also tl;dr
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#3
lol. one more balance thread Big Grin

#4
Most of these things I won't even comment on, jebus!

(01-03-2011, 06:18 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: camping actually becomes viable strategy due to the difficulty/lack of incentive to grab health.
Then camp. Go ahead. See if the others care.

(01-03-2011, 06:18 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Weapon Switching: Too irritating to combo for me to even put in the effort of doing so.
How is it any more/less irritating than in the other balances?

(01-03-2011, 06:18 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Nex (Long Bow/Railgun): Gear it to long-extreme range, else we have a balancing nightmare on our hands.
Could you elaborate on this "balancing nightmare"?

(01-03-2011, 06:18 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Rocket Launcher: Might as well get rid of the guided feature given how useless it is now that the rockets have been sped up more like 2.3's.
It's very useful to me. Also same as discussed with making Nex secondary/Rifle secondary zoom: Instead of removing the +zoom button, why not just leave it there as a feature for people who want it?
(01-03-2011, 06:18 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Weapon Switching: COMBO WHORING!

That's indeed a damn important thing. The game should be about who can push buttons in sequence the fastest, not about you know, aiming and strategy and such.
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#5
RAWR!
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#6
I can elaborate on the nex:

The current setup still allows it to be used in most situations including close ranges. That can be a real problem for a hit scan weapon that hits exactly where it's aimed as it will still be possible to abuse it like people did in Nexuiz. Especially since the movement is more predictable now. This will be a major source of rage if we get some Tribes-style action going. If the charge rate and maybe even the firing was slowed down, it would be almost suicide to use it at close range and just right for long-extreme ranges. The nex is only good for a single shot at closer ranges under my config requiring you to combo with it if you want to use it anything other than it's intended range.


As for combos:

Combos are fun and have always been a part of gameplay in a number of arena FPS games including Nexuiz, Quake, and Unreal Tournamant 2003/Unreal Championship. It also adds an additional level of strategy for those that want to try it. When implemented right it should be possible to play without comboing or play with comboing, depending on how the user wants to play. Some situations a combo would be a good idea, while others a bad idea.


The only issue I have with the rocket launcher really is that it's too damn hard to move in this game for you to be able to lob rockets that move that fast. If you can screw someone's bunnyhopping up, you can very easily take them down, vs running during a fight and using jump to dodge being a good strategy under my config.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#7
(01-03-2011, 05:56 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Some situations a combo would be a good idea, while others a bad idea.

It was _NEVER_ a bad idea in Nexuiz. You always got out a much bigger total DPS by comboing.
(01-03-2011, 05:56 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Combos are fun and have always been a part of gameplay in a number of arena FPS games including Nexuiz, Quake, and Unreal Tournamant 2003/Unreal Championship. It also adds an additional level of strategy for those that want to try it.

Yes, the strategy in Nexuiz is: Nex, fire, rl, fire, nex, fire, mortar, fire, nex, fire, mortar, fire, nex ...
Provided that you have all these three weapons. If we want combos to become a required part of the game (as they were in competitive Nexuiz), then why don't we just provide a script for the player that performs the perfect combo each time, by default! Smile
(01-03-2011, 05:56 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: I can elaborate on the nex:

The current setup still allows it to be used in most situations including close ranges. That can be a real problem for a hit scan weapon that hits exactly where it's aimed as it will still be possible to abuse it like people did in Nexuiz.

How is THAT a problem in close range fights? It doesn't work much different from a non-hit scan weapon in close range, whereas in long range the only weapon you really can (ab)use is either the Nex or the Rifle.

Plus in close range fights stuff moves faster around you than in long range fights, so it's even harder to hit.
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#8
You missed the point on the Nex. You balanced it as a weapon that can be used in close range situations effectively. Unfortunately said weapon happens to be hit-scan and hits EXACTLY where it's aimed making it effective for even the longest ranges which will possibly be an even bigger problem than before due to more predictable movement (either your bunny hopping or your moving sloooowwww). Also there are other weapons besides the nex that you can combo with, hell you can combo with just about everything under my config.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#9
Maybe said weapon should have distance falloff again then, Idunnolol. We'll see how it turns out.
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#10
Dunno. Personally I preferred it as a long range weapon that couldn't be used effectively at close range. btw what is the rifle secondary supposed to do?
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#11
I don't get this stupid argument on the nex, it does ok damage now, it's now owning everything. Stop trying to make it only able to be used in a/b/c situation let the player decide, the point is that it isn't out-right dominating now and THAT is the point.

So what if it can be used in close situation's now? Nearly all the weapon's can, it's not the most effective in close range situations that's what matters, it doesn't matter if it's being used close/mid/long, the fact is that it's not a ownage gun all those situations anymore.


Note:- We just played a competitive CTF match tonight and it was refreshing to see most of the weapon's being used, rather then the nex/mortar combo'ing constantly of old.
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#12
(01-03-2011, 07:16 PM)kojn^ Wrote: I don't get this stupid argument on the nex, it does ok damage now, it's now owning everything. Stop trying to make it only able to be used in a/b/c situation let the player decide, the point is that it isn't out-right dominating now and THAT is the point.

So what if it can be used in close situation's now? Nearly all the weapon's can, it's not the most effective in close range situations that's what matters, it doesn't matter if it's being used close/mid/long, the fact is that it's not a ownage gun all those situations anymore.

Note:- We just played a competitive CTF match tonight and it was refreshing to see most of the weapon's being used, rather then the nex/mortar combo'ing constantly of old.

This is a DISCUSSION, not a bashing thread or argument. If you have something constructive to say then by all means say it and add something to this conversation.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#13
I just did, no this is a thread about you again trying to promote your balance vs default. You have bashed most of the things of the default settings bar a few in this thread.

Breathe in, breathe out..must resist feeding..
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#14
Topic name failed already. Only major balance is FruitieX' , most people like it. You always repeat yourself 10 times a day like a broken LP. No one forces you to play a game that you don't like anyway, you can play Nexuiz if its so awesome (or set up a server there with things you like).
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#15
I think you all have weird settings on your servers. xD
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#16
(01-03-2011, 08:33 PM)Nesquick Wrote: I think you all have weird settings on your servers. xD

Says the guy running Minsta+CTF+Hook servers Tongue
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#17
Uhh... Mirio, what does this topic has to do with Nexuiz?
chooksta Wrote:640t ought to be enuf for antibody
- microsoft windows

#18
(01-03-2011, 08:39 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
(01-03-2011, 08:33 PM)Nesquick Wrote: I think you all have weird settings on your servers. xD

Says the guy running Minsta+CTF+Hook servers Tongue

You're just afraid that if you try it you might like it ^^
There is an old saying: "Once you go black you never go back."...

Comon, live a little Wink

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#19
Personally I prefer just standard instagib, maybe it's cause I suck at minsta..might be fun to learn the hook and gameplay though Big Grin
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#20
(01-03-2011, 08:41 PM)naryl Wrote: Uhh... Mirio, what does this topic has to do with Nexuiz?

Maybe read the main post? ... eh
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#21
Weapons are fine the way they are, except for the good ol' hagar secondary rofl.
Tested lot of stuffs yesterday, maybe only MG secondary feels to be a tiny bit underpowered comparing to the primary (dont forget, noobs cant aim too well and they can almost never land all that 3 bullets). Except that every weapons are really nicely usable.

What I noticed about the health system that its rotting at the same speed all along: maybeeee, just a tiny bit faster rot on 250 HP, like 30%? It feels to favor holding the HP stack a bit too much.

#22
(01-03-2011, 08:39 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
(01-03-2011, 08:33 PM)Nesquick Wrote: I think you all have weird settings on your servers. xD

Says the guy running Minsta+CTF+Hook servers Tongue
I lol'd

But anyway, at this whole thread: tl;dr -- Besides, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Discussions about balance shouldn't be broken up into such a general subject like this, it should be done separately and within each subjects own context. For example, if you want to discuss weapon behavior for the Nexgun, that's fine: Just do it in a thread which is dedicated to figuring out the best method for balancing the Nexgun whilst still making it fun and ubiquitous. Please people, dedicate a thread to a specific weapon or topic and STICK WITH IT.. else you're just creating a large cluster fuck with walls of text and incoherent arguments, and this gets nothing done.

But my reply since this thread is being general: Default balance is mostly okay -- it has several things going for it anyway. It's the most complete and actually BALANCED balance currently. Mine is out of date and needs a lot more testing first -- Lee's is probably.. well.... perhaps I won't comment as I haven't played with it much Tongue -- And tZork's balance also is out of date. It also receives the most play testing and is generally approved of by most players.

There are some details about the default balance which I dislike (Mostly: Laser force, the slortar, health system is inconsistent), however I could probably easily get over them as long as the balance ends up being both balanced and fun for good and new players.

#23
What he said ^
nomnomnomnonmonm:
"the best trolls are indistinguishable from idiots"

#24
@ Samual

Good point.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.

#25
@FruitieX:
Absolutly correct, the combo was more of a pattern, but it was fun.
And no damage falloff on the nex, especially at close range. It was annoying. I prefer the charge feature.

@Lee_Stricklin:
From my observation, FruitieX did a good job of balancing the weapons. But I worry about that...believe it or not, control of a game depends on the weapons.

@Both:
Weapons kept being added to the game. The point being that balance wasn't much of an annoyance until too many weapons started spawning. With the original layout(circa 2.3?) the weapons had different uses, but were not balanced. That worked. It required map control and strategy. You had to, say corner an opponent to effectivaly finish him off with the electro. That strategy has dissappeared. The balanced weaponry means that control of a map is gone. In fact, it seemed, in watching some games that there was no way to maintain control. On a n00b side, this is ..."bad", but if someone is not willing to practice and learn the game, they can go back to CoD. The game should require technique. What makes a game addicting is the technique you use to complete it. I don't play Assualt Cube because there is nothing to master. Point, and shoot. Gets boring quickly. I feel some remorse about this balance approaching that. It's not drastic, just subtle right now, but keep this in mind when y'all finalize the official balance. We want keeper players, not 2 day players. Steam has a bad tendency of doing that to me. Tongue



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