Create an account


Poll: Do you like this idea?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes
63.64%
7 63.64%
No
36.36%
4 36.36%
Total 11 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
[SUGGESTION] Friend/Enemy instead of Blue/Red where possible

#1
Xonotic is a very action-intensive game. Understanding the current game state is very important. However, as it is right now, one has to think a lot about team colors. The situation is especially bad in CTF: the voice says, for example, "Blue flag taken", and makes you think something like "OK, so what team am I on? All right, it's blue. So did my teammate pick up the enemy flag? Wait, no, it's vice versa... Ah, our flag has been taken!".

My suggestion is to change, for example, "blue flag" and "red flag" to "your flag" and "enemy flag" where it's possible and doesn't cause more confusion.
Reply

#2
One tiny problem with that is that CTF is not exclusively for two teams, three and four team ctf exist too. There aren't many maps for this, though.

That's not a problem, but surely a thing to keep in mind.
Reply

#3
(04-25-2012, 01:59 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: One tiny problem with that is that CTF is not exclusively for two teams, three and four team ctf exist too.

Replacing only messages about your team will work here: "Your flag", "Red flag", "Yellow flag"...
[Image: xonotic-forum.png]
Reply

#4
(04-25-2012, 01:56 PM)BlaXpirit Wrote: My suggestion is to change, for example, "blue flag" and "red flag" to "your flag" and "enemy flag" where it's possible and doesn't cause more confusion.

An excellent idea. If the Xonotic developers had some sound files available I'm sure they would be willing to add the few lines of code needed.

Edit: had
Reply

#5
200% agree with the OP to make subjective messages.
One can generalize this by also making subjective skin colors (just like in QL).

Actually, the red/blue color carries poor informative content, is superfluous and is quite complex to manage.
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#6
Personally, I'm getting confused by flag colors on top of HUD when flag is taken. I think better idea would be to paint a ! on flag, whenever it's taken and add other notification, when it's YOU who carries the flag. 2.5.2 had an icon somewhere near ammo counts, UT had blinking string "You have the flag, return to base!", whichever would work.
Reply

#7
Oof, sorry. There is/was no such thing as 3 and 4 team ctf, I got confused with rogue ctf. That's not the first time it happens to me :X
Reply

#8
(04-25-2012, 05:20 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Oof, sorry. There is/was no such thing as 3 and 4 team ctf, I got confused with rogue ctf. That's not the first time it happens to me :X

[Image: vMnkzMw]
Reply

#9
(04-25-2012, 02:02 PM)BlaXpirit Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 01:59 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: One tiny problem with that is that CTF is not exclusively for two teams, three and four team ctf exist too.

Replacing only messages about your team will work here: "Your flag", "Red flag", "Yellow flag"...
I very much like this idea.
Reply

#10
I remember UT had both types of messages. It would say 'the <color> flag was taken' plus you'd get a blinking message like 'the enemy has your flag' - imho it's the best approach.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
Reply

#11
(04-25-2012, 06:45 PM)Spaceman Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 05:20 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Oof, sorry. There is/was no such thing as 3 and 4 team ctf, I got confused with rogue ctf. That's not the first time it happens to me :X

http://ompldr.org/vMnkzMw

That's rogue ctf, isn't it? Please provide some context? Tongue
Reply

#12
It seems that pink and yellow teams are even more useless at CTF than I am :p

The problem I have with this, is that you still need to know which team you are on. Cue the reason I am at crap at CTF. Any time I see a player with a flag I need to think to myself... is he on my team or theirs.... wait, that's OUR flag... isn't it? Hmmm... I don't want to get flamed for killing our own FC... double check... YES! It's the enemy!!! Let's shoot hi... ow, he's gone. BOING BLUE SCORES!
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
Reply

#13
(04-26-2012, 04:45 AM)PinkRobot Wrote: It seems that pink and yellow teams are even more useless at CTF than I am :p

The problem I have with this, is that you still need to know which team you are on. Cue the reason I am at crap at CTF. Any time I see a player with a flag I need to think to myself... is he on my team or theirs.... wait, that's OUR flag... isn't it? Hmmm... I don't want to get flamed for killing our own FC... double check... YES! It's the enemy!!! Let's shoot hi... ow, he's gone. BOING BLUE SCORES!

I think you're taking it too far :-). The HUD and weapon colors are a good&quick reminder of which team you're on.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
Reply

#14
(04-26-2012, 04:50 AM)Cyber Killer Wrote: I think you're taking it too far :-).

You're probably right Tongue
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
Reply

#15
(04-26-2012, 02:48 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 06:45 PM)Spaceman Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 05:20 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Oof, sorry. There is/was no such thing as 3 and 4 team ctf, I got confused with rogue ctf. That's not the first time it happens to me :X

http://ompldr.org/vMnkzMw

That's rogue ctf, isn't it? Please provide some context? Tongue

That is CTF with four teams and four flags. I wrote the code in December 2009. I think modified two maps - Egg And Bacon, and Facing 4orlds. I suspect the code for this and some other hacks has been lost.

As PinkRobot noted the Yellow and Pink bots were rubbish. With some code changes they could have been less rubbish Tongue
Reply

#16
You're wrong Spaceman, we never merged that code for CTF to support 4 teams. Or at least, if you did add support, you did it very poorly and not completely Tongue Either way, I entirely re-wrote all of the CTF code in my mutator_ctf branch anyway, and it will not support 4 teams OR rogue players, it is very simple and clean.

However, this would be difficult to do for other reasons: Mainly #1: We cannot get those sounds replaced easily, and #2: How do we then handle spectators? They don't have a friendly or enemy flag, they just know red/blue -- etc.

Do note, the centerprints and console print messages already say BOTH abstract/specific names, it is only the sounds we can't fix easily.

Anyway, I think the better solution is to make the player more easily aware of what team they're on, because it's not particularly feasible for us to do it without a sound designer right now.
Reply

#17
(04-26-2012, 10:16 AM)Samual Wrote: You're wrong Spaceman, we never merged that code for CTF to support 4 teams.

I never claimed my CTF code was in Nexuiz.
Reply

#18
(04-26-2012, 10:16 AM)Samual Wrote: You're wrong Spaceman, we never merged that code for CTF to support 4 teams.

You're wrong, Samual, Nexuiz 1.0 was released in 2005.

EDIT: Drat, ninja'd.
Reply

#19
oh right, I was saying MrBougo was wrong in his first post to the thread.
Reply

#20
(04-26-2012, 10:16 AM)Samual Wrote: However, this would be difficult to do for other reasons: Mainly #1: We cannot get those sounds replaced easily, and #2: How do we then handle spectators? They don't have a friendly or enemy flag, they just know red/blue -- etc.
Well, the only valid reason is #1.
It's not that hard to think that when playing, you have subjective messages and when spectating, you get (objective) red/blue messages.

This approach is followed and consistent in Quake Live, where one never wonders which team he belongs to.

For those who may not know: in QL, you can set a given color for the opponent team (let's say green), whatever you're blue or red.
So if you're blue, you'll get blue teamates and green opponents.

Thus you do know that 1) you're blue and 2) any green guy is not a friend.
Of course, this could be applied for oral messages as well.

This system is elegant and solves those eternal hesitations that everybody has more or less when a game starts.
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply

#21
My idea is not very nice then... But something needs to be done with the teams!
Reply

#22
(04-26-2012, 03:18 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: For those who may not know: in QL, you can set a given color for the opponent team (let's say green), whatever you're blue or red.
So if you're blue, you'll get blue teamates and green opponents.

Thus you do know that 1) you're blue and 2) any green guy is not a friend.
Of course, this could be applied for oral messages as well.

This system is elegant and solves those eternal hesitations that everybody has more or less when a game starts.

Your example requires that you know your own color, so:

If you know that you are blue, where is the problem to shoot the reds? Wink
Reply

#23
[Image: xoncolor.th.png]

I mean... Can you really get confused which team you're on when you got so many hints on screen all the time? (not applicable if you turn off gun and hud visibility in which case you shouldn't argue :-P ) If so many graphical hints aren't enough, I doubt if changing a line of text will make any difference.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
Reply

#24
(04-26-2012, 05:13 PM)Mirio Wrote: Your example requires that you know your own color, so:

If you know that you are blue, where is the problem to shoot the reds? Wink

I think they mean that you can pick a color that will be given to the enemy team, no matter which team you're in. The enemy would always be green team from your own point of view. I can't see how this can not be confusing when you start spectating or switch teams, though. And I can't see how you're supposed to know which base you're in, you still have to know your team's color since the map is usually themed in red/blue.
Reply

#25
(04-27-2012, 12:34 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: I can't see how this can not be confusing when you start spectating or switch teams, though.
I don't see much problem here. When specing, you see blue/red guys. When joining blue, you see blue and green guys. When you switch to red, you'll see red and green guys.
In any case, you shot green guys, no matter what.

This system may be a bit confusing for fresh newbies at first sight (I was in QL during 5mn). But, this subjective color system can be made optional (=you have to activate it in a menu if you want to play with subjective colors) and should be off by default. So for newbies, this would be red/blue colors anyway.

(04-27-2012, 12:34 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: And I can't see how you're supposed to know which base you're in, you still have to know your team's color since the map is usually themed in red/blue.
I agree here that subjective color is a bit less elegant, but still works very fine in practice.
If you're blue, you'll know it quite quickly because you'll see only blue guys around you and you'll integrate quickly which base is yours and which base is not.

More generally, I think that QL system is much easier than red/blue system because:
For time-critical events (e.g. you see a guy at a corner, should I shoot at him or not?), blue/red information are superfluous. The only thing you have to figure out is not "red or blue?" but rather "teammate or ennemy?". And trying to express the latter alternative by objective colors are suboptimal, because you have to prior remember which color you are.
Now, for non time-critical events (e.g. what is the score of my team? / am I in my flag base? / hey buddy, join red team please! ), blue/red system can do the job because your brain can spend some more 200ms to answer this.

Cyber Killer Wrote:Can you really get confused which team you're on when you got so many hints on screen all the time?
answer is yes. And I'm far to be alone. This problem is not new, and not specific to xonotic.
If you're not confused, try to imagine that some are. Smile
Fat.bot.Slim
Reply



Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  [SUGGESTION] Updating damage indicator on damage instead of creating another indicator rafallus 1 2,223 10-07-2017, 10:48 AM
Last Post: Mario
  [SUGGESTION] Alt fire mode for Nex instead of scope? Smilecythe 28 32,434 03-01-2013, 03:21 PM
Last Post: MirceaKitsune
  [SUGGESTION] Possible matchmaking pitch 4 5,230 03-15-2012, 05:15 PM
Last Post: pitch
  [SUGGESTION] Orange base and blue base instead of red and blue base? kay 24 20,039 06-07-2011, 02:00 AM
Last Post: divVerent
  [SUGGESTION] You are on RED! unfa 19 18,587 12-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Last Post: Samual
  [SUGGESTION] Projectile bullets/beams instead of hitscan rays Beefeater 22 21,586 06-23-2010, 02:00 PM
Last Post: Beefeater
  [SUGGESTION] /tell command instead of console Kryten 7 8,055 06-16-2010, 07:58 AM
Last Post: Halogene

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
2 Guest(s)

Forum software by © MyBB original theme © iAndrew 2016, remixed by -z-