Create an account


Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
[SUGGESTION] Xonotic for Beginner's too

#1
Okey, this thread is meant to bring up some things I feel is problems for Xonotic. I hope
this can lead to a constructive discussion so feel free to point out any flaws or your own
solutions to there problems if you feel the same as me. I want Xonotic to be great for
both competitive and casual players without all this diversity. Thanks.

Problems
  • Too difficult for beginner's
  • Too wide audience target
  • Lack of in-game tutorial

Okey, the three first points is closely connected to each other. First of all, the game is too
difficult for beginner's. As many have pointed out in recent topics is that Xonotic is a
huge step from what most people are used to(aka Call of Duty and other mainstream
games). The community is almost divided into three parts. On one side we have the
"newbs", which in-fact aren't just beginner's nor noobs. These people are ones who find
either normal game too hard or just likes Overkill and Minsta more. Then we have the
people who ain't very competive, but they still like public DM, CTF and sometimes a less
competitive pickup match or cup. Then we have the competitive camp, they're the
die-hard duelers and TDM'ers. My thought is, how could we bring these closer together?
Many say "eh, competitive just play pickup and newbs just go play minsta so everyone
can have their fun" but I disagree with this. Why? Because normal Xonotic is extremely
fun even if it needs a bit time to learn. I think the problem to this is not as simple as we
may think, many people have proven that in discussions in other topics here on the
forums. So how can we fix this "problem"? Well, it isn't a problem in general, but we may
call it that since it have a solution. There's probably many solutions to this but here's my
suggestion.

Solution
As I said before, there's probably many solutions, and these is just ones I came up with
based on my own opinions and those told in recent topics here on the forums.
  • Design a mode to introduce players
  • Have an in-game tutorial, inside the campaign without text or voice acting
Okey, I myself got into Xonotic first by playing Overkill, I had never played this kind of
game before except a very little bit. What made me get into normal Xonotic by playing
Overkill was that I learned how to move and aim. Overkill is quite fast and requires that
you can aim and move pretty effectively. It has some flaws for beginner's though, it won't
teach you that you should pick up stuff and nor it'll teach you advanced movement like
strafe turning. I would suggest to make a new mode based on Overkill but change the
guns in it to the normal MG(well, Arc if we talk in terms of future Xonotic), normal Nexgun
and the normal Shotgun and also wield the player with a laser of course. We will also add
a few items, like Quad, Rocket Launcher and the Mega Health and some shards around
the map. The new player will see that these make him stronger and may frag opponents
more effective. Later when she play normal Xonotic she will naturally see a item and pick
it up since she knows it will make her frag more enemies. I think this is what is needed
together with a tutorial(which I'll cover later) to make new people(and current ones who
just think normal Xonotic is too difficult or boring) enjoy the game much more.

Now as for the tutorial I mentioned. Let's restructure the campaign so it becomes even
more as an introduction to the game. My points to make it more as a learning tool(and
fun too play of course) is to take at least one racing level a bit earlier. Movement is
almost crucial in Xonotic. Also put this new mode I described before very early and also
some minsta levels that is more easy for the beginner. This together with a clear note
when a new player downloads and start playing Xonotic may make them play the
campaign before jumping straight in multiplayer. Also add more Beginner's-only servers,
this is a quite big problem though since it's up to the admins.

Basically, I learned to play Xonotic by first playing campaign and then move to Overkill
and then eventually joining normal Xonotic servers. I had to watch videos and ask other
players though but this might not be needed(as much) if this solution may be
implemented. This may, or probably certainly will require text tutorials too if someone
want to learn how to play Xonotic well quickly, but we have tutorials here on the forums.
Another goal I think Xonotic is in need of is getting these three kind of groups I talked
about in the beginning to get closer. In my opinion it would be more than great to only
have one balance config instead of two in 1.0 and more promotion of all modes. Diversity
is good but may not be what is really good for Xonotic both fun-wise and growing-wise.

(also thanks to PinkRobot for discussing this with me earlier)
Reply

#2
I would create a tutorial map like in Nexuiz and it could be forced to be played when you fire up the game for the first time (like entering a nick).
[Image: 21.png]
IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
Steam | Twitch.tv | YouTube
Movies: Mirification #1 | #2 | Mirificaption #1 | #3 | #4 | [BOT] Clan #3 | #5 | #6 | #7 | [BOT] Clan #4 | #8

Reply

#3
(01-11-2013, 01:05 PM)Mirio Wrote: forced to be played

no.

I think
Quote: Design a mode to introduce players
might be a good idea. or, if we do ever get a legitimate "campaign" mode playing through it can gradually introduce movement and weapons concepts.
Reply

#4
Do you even know the tutorial map?
It got "gradually introduce movement and weapons concepts" this.

Also there are many games who use a thing like that and it just takes ~5 minutes and definiatly helps instead of beating lousy AIs after a few hours.
[Image: 21.png]
IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
Steam | Twitch.tv | YouTube
Movies: Mirification #1 | #2 | Mirificaption #1 | #3 | #4 | [BOT] Clan #3 | #5 | #6 | #7 | [BOT] Clan #4 | #8

Reply

#5
machine! Wrote:Too difficult for beginner's

Maybe it's just me, but when I try a new game, I expect to get owned. If I'm not getting owned, it usually means that the skill ceiling is relatively low, and I don't stick with the game long term. I'm all for measures that will help people learn the game, but whatever you do, do not change the game itself to accommodate people just because they don't know how to play it.

machine! Wrote:I would suggest to make a new mode based on Overkill but change the
guns in it to the normal MG(well, Arc if we talk in terms of future Xonotic), normal Nexgun
and the normal Shotgun and also wield the player with a laser of course. We will also add
a few items, like Quad, Rocket Launcher and the Mega Health and some shards around
the map.

Possible unintended consequence:

"Another game mode? Are you kidding me?"
...

I can't count the number of times I've hung out on a duel server trying to attract players, but when one joins, well... let's just say most of them have 'Player' in front of their nick Tongue I say hi, kill them twice with the laser, and they quit never to be seen again. Sometimes I think the best thing would be to have potential players watch something like Killing X Zone before even downloading so they know what they're getting into.

A tutorial map like back in Nexuiz (except maybe a bit prettier XD) couldn't do any harm, though we might as well wait till we get the weapons/ammo sorted out.
nowego [MLP:FiM]
Reply

#6
(01-11-2013, 03:27 PM)nowego4 Wrote: Maybe it's just me, but when I try a new game, I expect to get owned. If I'm not getting owned, it usually means that the skill ceiling is relatively low, and I don't stick with the game long term. I'm all for measures that will help people learn the game, but whatever you do, do not change the game itself to accommodate people just because they don't know how to play it.

This is based from what I've seen my friends play Xonotic for the first time and how I myself learned how to play Xonotic. They all complain "oh why do I have to pickup weapons" and stuff. They don't even realize they need health and armor. Xonotic is a fun game and wouldn't it be fun for beginner's to be able to learn how to enjoy it too?
Reply

#7
Another thing that might be helpful to newbs is to include a demo for each singleplayer level with someone of a moderate to good skill level. Watching this might help people beat a difficult level, and get an idea how the game is actually played by others, rather only what they see the bots do.
Reply

#8
Demos are easy to queue up so a demo tutorial would be much easier to make than a tutorial map.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
Reply

#9
(01-12-2013, 01:15 PM)edh Wrote: Demos are easy to queue up so a demo tutorial would be much easier to make than a tutorial map.

The point is that the player got to learn things to get further in the map.

For example he needs to detonate an Electro combo and the next door opens or he needs to guide a rocket across an obstacle to hit the button to open the next door.

A voice used to explain the things in the background.
[Image: 21.png]
IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
Steam | Twitch.tv | YouTube
Movies: Mirification #1 | #2 | Mirificaption #1 | #3 | #4 | [BOT] Clan #3 | #5 | #6 | #7 | [BOT] Clan #4 | #8

Reply

#10
Demos can't be rewinded rewound, too.

EDIT: Spelling; thanks to rocknroll237.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
Reply

#11
(01-12-2013, 03:36 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Demos can't be rewinded, too.

Rewound. Tongue
Reply

#12
(01-12-2013, 03:36 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Demos can't be rewinded rewound, too.
This is something quite a few Quake engines support but not Darkplaces.

What a demo can teach new players:
- don't stand still!
- each of the weapons in turn and what they do
- the overall style of gameplay
- how amazing it can look
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
Reply

#13
The biggest problem of Xonotic non-instagib modes is not that they're hard to master (which I think is a good thing), but that they're unplayable with default settings. Ideally a new player should open the game, select a server, be prompted to pass the tutorial, pass the said tutorial and then be able to play without any considerable impairments compared to other players other than skill level no matter what mode does the server run. Instead, the default settings drag new players down in non-instagib and non-overkill modes.

- Default weapon key binds are useless. This is the biggest problem, as it's impossible to fight against good players who rapidly switch to weapon that is easiest to aim in any current situation when important weapons are out of finger reach. I know that people may disagree which particular layout is the best, but I everyone will agree that putting the most used weapons Nex and Rocket Launcher on keys 7 and 9 where they can't be reached without letting go of control keys makes these weapons nearly useless in combat. I believe the biggest reason why is Overkill more popular than standard mod is that it only has 4 weapons and the keys 1-4 are easily reachable.
- Default mouse sensitivity should be automatically determined based on OS mouse speed, acceleration and mouse DPI (is this practically feasible)?
- Default field of view should be at least 110 (it's what Red Eclipse uses). 90 doesn't give quite enough view.
- Maybe speedometer should be enabled by default, so new players can know if they are moving effectively or not.
- Nexuiz tutorial should be brought back.
Reply

#14
(01-23-2013, 11:40 AM)lamefun Wrote: - Default weapon key binds are useless.

Most games use numbers by default. They're also easy to learn and easy to find on the keyboard. I would be against changing them as I always use numbers and have never really got used to even using the scroll wheel to switch. Wolfenstein 3D used numbers and I'm not changing anytime soon.

(01-23-2013, 11:40 AM)lamefun Wrote: - Default mouse sensitivity should be automatically determined based on OS mouse speed, acceleration and mouse DPI (is this practically feasible)?

Build it into a training mode maybe? It says move the mouse x amount, then calibrates accordingly? I can think many people might disagree however with any calibration as this is a personal preference thing.

(01-23-2013, 11:40 AM)lamefun Wrote: - Default field of view should be at least 110 (it's what Red Eclipse uses). 90 doesn't give quite enough view.

I'd really this rather wasn't the case. The point of a game is for it to be a mix of realistic and fun. For virtually all users the screen is already taking up less than 90 degrees of their vision and these big FOV values just don't look realistic. The point of a game shouldn't be for everyone to have the optimal ability to shoot everyone else, this spoils the fun too much and everyone then starts arguing about balancing. Stop taking the game too seriously Smile

(01-23-2013, 11:40 AM)lamefun Wrote: - Maybe speedometer should be enabled by default, so new players can know if they are moving effectively or not.

For race mode perhaps but for normal game play this is too much information and makes things seem too geeky for many new players.

Remember that some people just want to have some casual fun and aren't too interested in being the best at a game. You risk scaring off potential new players by making the game excessively anal. I think some people need to lighten up a little and play for the fun of it. Big Grin
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
Reply

#15
The point of my suggestion is to provide players with usable default settings from the start, so they can start playing right away without tweaking any settings.

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: Most games use numbers by default. They're also easy to learn and easy to find on the keyboard. I would be against changing them as I always use numbers and have never really got used to even using the scroll wheel to switch. Wolfenstein 3D used numbers and I'm not changing anytime soon.

Except they're useless in a combat against any experienced player. Maybe in most games you don't have to change weapons in the middle of fast-paced combat, that's why they can use numbers. Also the defaults shouldn't affect any existing configuration, so your key binds won't change.

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: Build it into a training mode maybe? It says move the mouse x amount, then calibrates accordingly? I can think many people might disagree however with any calibration as this is a personal preference thing.

Those who feel mouse speed isn't right can calibrate it later in preferences. The automatic calibration shouldn't affect any existing configurations, only players who start the game for the first time.

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: I'd really this rather wasn't the case. The point of a game is for it to be a mix of realistic and fun. For virtually all users the screen is already taking up less than 90 degrees of their vision and these big FOV values just don't look realistic.

FOV 90 actually feels wierd for me after Red Eclipse with default 110.

[Image: FovCompare.jpg]

What about FOV 100 then?

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: The point of a game shouldn't be for everyone to have the optimal ability to shoot everyone else, this spoils the fun too much and everyone then starts arguing about balancing.

. . .

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: Stop taking the game too seriously Smile

Except that we need every single free software game newbie-friendly. Each single free software game helps to ruin the plans of ONEist Global Government to build the shiny new world, the world for people, the locked world, where computers are no more and there are locked-down computing devices for people instead running locked-down OSes, for our own security&safety!

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: For race mode perhaps but for normal game play this is too much information and makes things seem too geeky for many new players.

But it helps!

(01-23-2013, 12:13 PM)edh Wrote: You risk scaring off potential new players by making the game excessively anal. I think some people need to lighten up a little and play for the fun of it. Big Grin

It's better to have unusual but usable defaults than familiar but useless in this particular game.
Reply

#16
Maybe ... while we wait for a rad tutorial level .. a few explanatory images may help temporarily patch the hole ...

as for controls ... the only fps xp I had before xonotic (nexuiz) was bzflag (using wacom tablet to aim) ... and descent (using keyboard only) ....

before I made binds ... I used scroll wheel for weapons with a single bind for laser (cause its so important)
Reply

#17
(01-23-2013, 02:50 PM)lamefun Wrote: the locked world, where computers are no more and there are locked-down computing devices for people instead running locked-down OSes, for our own security&safety!
Windows 8 Secure Boot in once sentence.
Anyway I agree with everything here and I hope it improves
Reply

#18
Hiya. I know I'm brand new to this forum, but I thought I'd pitch in my two cents.

I agree with changing the keybinds, but I'm surprised that nobody gave any concrete suggestions about what to change them to (did anyone?). I'd like to propose a few small changes as part of this thread.
  • Keep the numerical keybinds just so players have an intuitive (albeit slow) means of accessing every weapon.
  • Make 'E' wield the laser. This way, one of the most useful tools in the game is very easy and quick to access.
  • Make 'Q' use the previously used weapon. That way, two-weapon combos become a lot more accessible to new players as they can just wield those weapons in that order and then quickly switch between them with that key.
  • Maybe move the off-hand grappling hook/jetpack key to 'Alt'? That way, it would be pressed by the thumb, which is normally used to jump, which is not something you'll be doing while grappling or flying. Tongue
  • Maybe have 'Tab' be the hold-to-zoom key? It's a very useful key in minstagib for people who play defensively and for sniping. I'm suggesting hold-to-zoom rather than toggle-zoom because this way, if a sniper is attacked then they can get out of their zoomed-in mode ever so slightly quicker, and it also makes long-range Nex shots easier for those who don't have two-button mice.

That's my input. Smile
Reply

#19
Quote:for those who don't have two-button mice.

w00t??? I thought even apple dropped the idea of a single button mouse
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
Reply

#20
(07-01-2013, 11:41 PM)Cyber Killer Wrote:
Quote:for those who don't have two-button mice.

w00t??? I thought even apple dropped the idea of a single button mouse

I probably should have emphasized the mouse portion. There are some people who game on laptops using touchpads, and on those it can be quite cumbersome (or impossible) to press both the left and right mouse keys at once. They're in the minority, I'm sure, but they're there.
Reply

#21
Touchpads are cumbersome full stop. I don't think we have a duty of making touchpads more comfortable, because they will simply never be. Touchpad users in FPS are also far from being the majority, so there's really no reason to make the default binds "touchpad-friendly" (quotes because there is no such thing).
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
Reply

#22
(07-02-2013, 05:55 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Touchpads are cumbersome full stop. I don't think we have a duty of making touchpads more comfortable, because they will simply never be. Touchpad users in FPS are also far from being the majority, so there's really no reason to make the default binds "touchpad-friendly" (quotes because there is no such thing).

That sounds fair enough. What about the other keybinds I proposed earlier?
Reply

#23
I don't have an opinion on that, sorry :X
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  [SUGGESTION] Improving beginner servers ThePWTULN 23 14,874 11-25-2010, 03:01 AM
Last Post: Calinou

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Forum software by © MyBB original theme © iAndrew 2016, remixed by -z-