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My Future With Xonotic

#51
Ughm, that people often blame others to gain something for their own?
Mirio: "If i'll ban you it's because you are stupid and i'm tired of stupid people"
Samual: "Everything must be as i want it, everyone who says otherwise will be ignored because i'm tired of 'em"
Hitler: "Communists are coming, you need me to protect you".
Honestly, i wasn't making any points specifically, just pointed out similarities in threads and maybe thread results.

I'm not sure in the point of this thread, so i don't know if i should respond to Samual and others or not. Samual's post is quite a mess, but i won't spend a lot of energy for nothing if the point of this thread is to say "fuck it" or just some whining. I'll see what others will say.

#52
Harmata Wrote:Mirio: (...)
Samual: (...)
Hitler: (...)
I don't know if this is relevant, but there is such thing as Godwin's law according to which, you just lost this argument. Besides that, it's just a bad style.
[Image: 12684.png]

#53
You know, before there was the Internet it was fine to insert some humor into your texts. Joking wasn't called trolling back then either. Besides, whom did i compared to Hitler, Samual or Mirio? Or both of them? That's what i thought. Internet "laws" can go and suck it.

However, what argument are you even talking about? Is it a fact that Mirio made a thread where he "explained" why he bans and will ban people at Clanbase or wherever (because they are stupid)? Yes. Is it a fact that Samual made an ultimatum thread asking to make himself a lead designer because he's tired of stupid people? Yes. Mirio's thread was simply lousy, and i began getting a feeling that something similar is happening here. I didn't make a post specifically to point this, i've made an edit later to one of my posts.

I'm half-way through the thread carefully reflecting on all that has been said, will post my thoughts tomorrow. This thing is much more serious than i thought at first.

#54
Fair enough.

EDIT: I have to agree in part with g4spr0m, though. You know somebody's going to dismiss the entire content of your criticism to invoke godwin's law whenever applicable and kill the conversation as a result. That's reason enough to avoid nazi parallels (aside from it being in bad taste).

#55
Ban
erebus minstanex erebus Angel

#56
What's your point, Pendulla?

Tongue

#57
Pendullas post was more funneh than the others. Wink

#58
My future with Xonotic is so bright I gots to wear shades.
[MoFo] Servers - North America - Hosted in Montreal Canada - Admin DeadDred [MoFo]

#59
Quote:aside from it being in bad taste
Why truth is a bad taste? "Hey man, you removed my post because you didn't like my point of view, you are acting like a Na- Huuurrr, Godwin's law, some 90-s meme, your point is irrelevant." Really people, you want to build community around memes? Hell, some guy even gave me a -...

Hey wait a moment... oh my gentle Jesus, i received 4 changes to my reputation and i didn't even notice them. What in the... seriously, this thread perfectly shows the problems with Internet forums. A guy asks for supreme decision rights in an open-source project, and people are more concerned with memes and karma points.

Quote:Overly arrogant, lack of respect, childish responses, i wish i could say better
So ballist1c, did you give Samual -1s for his posts in this thread, where he calls people "the retarded kids shit in the corner and piss all over the rest of the box", because he doesn't like some models? Or are you "full with respect" for him? Should i be too? Sorry, i have some self esteem. Give me a -1 for this too.

#60
*grabs popcorn*

#61
(11-10-2013, 09:27 PM)Harmata Wrote: Why truth is a bad taste? "Hey man, you removed my post because you didn't like my point of view, you are acting like a Na- Huuurrr, Godwin's law, some 90-s meme, your point is irrelevant." Really people, you want to build community around memes? Hell, some guy even gave me a -...
I don't like that invoking Godwin's law is a conversation ender. I especially don't like that it's the only point in your post that people chose to focus on. I guess it's easy and convenient...

Anyway, unless you were joking, I don't see how it's fair to compare with nazism what you perceive as childish authority abuse. It trivializes the former (hence why I call it bad taste) and makes you seem overly hyperbolic. The comparison is completely unnecessary, weakens your argument, and indeed makes you a target for memes.

Do you mind if I split this conversation into its own thread in Sanity Island or Off Topic? "On Godwin's law". Perhaps starting with g4spr0m's post or yours that follows.

(11-10-2013, 09:27 PM)Harmata Wrote: Hey wait a moment... oh my gentle Jesus, i received 4 changes to my reputation and i didn't even notice them. What in the... seriously, this thread perfectly shows the problems with Internet forums. A guy asks for supreme decision rights in an open-source project, and people are more concerned with memes and karma points.
You should expect more of that. "Hey, this guy has negative reputation, I can give him low blows and everyone will be fine with it." I get what they're saying about your arrogance though, and it won't help you with that reputation "problem".

(11-11-2013, 12:28 AM)Mirio Wrote: *grabs popcorn*
Great. Just great.

#62
(11-11-2013, 03:19 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:
(11-11-2013, 12:28 AM)Mirio Wrote: *grabs popcorn*
Great. Just great.

Agreed! Wink

And I really did actually.

#63
Quote:Anyway, unless you were joking
Yeah, i was. It's okay to make fun of Hitler, ya know.
Quote:I don't see how it's fair to compare with nazism what you perceive as childish authority abuse
What are you talking about? There was an abuse, already? Where? Also, you are simplifying: sure, it's not right to compare things like post removal or banning with Nazism, because Nazism is a complex issue that includes genocide, wars, totalitarianism and so on, but it's totally okay to point out that someone used something from Goebbels' techniques.
Quote:I get what they're saying about your arrogance though
Jee, how about some examples of my arrogance? That concerns you too, ballist1c. Oh wait, you pressed that -1 button, you can call it a day. Honestly, with Mirio and Samual around, these arrogance accusations look ridiculous, very ridiculous.

Almost finished my post concerning Samual, gonna post slightly later.

#64
[Image: tumblr_lsdj4dY9dj1qa82mn.jpg]

#65
(11-11-2013, 04:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: Honestly, with Mirio and Samual around, these arrogance accusations look ridiculous, very ridiculous.

I generally dislike your argumentation style, as it indeed comes across very arrogant and often agressive. I have to admit you sort of managed to land a point here, though. But you can't isolate the arrogance eruptions in those two threads of Mirio and Samual and judge them without taking a look at what these two guys did for the project. They have spent countless hours in designing/coding the game and developing the community. So yes, those threads were bad, but Samual and Mirio did (and still do) a lot of really great things for the project that, in my opinion, outweigh what negative is contained in these threads by far.

You can't claim the same for you, can you. Why do you wonder that people only see the negative aspects of you, if you don't provide any reason to think positive about you?

For the record, I'm not saying that if you do good things for the project then it's ok to be an asshole. But it makes people forgive bad behavior more easily to a certain extent.
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#66
(11-11-2013, 04:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: Jee, how about some examples of my arrogance?
Well, we have seen quite a few examples from you lately. Why do you think others are not so welcoming? If you do not be more civil in your posts and learn that some things should just be left alone you can continue to expect this.

Saying 'this thread perfectly shows the problems with Internet forums' is very hypocritical from my perspective as we have seen nothing from you recently that shows any level of respect for others. Do you talk like this to people in real life too?
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic

#67
Quote:I generally dislike your argumentation style, as it indeed comes across very arrogant and often agressive.
Not a single example presented.
Quote:Well, we have seen quite a few examples from you lately.
Not a single example presented.
Quote:If you do not be more civil in your posts and learn that some things should just be left alone you can continue to expect this.
Now let me tell you something, edh, Halogene and some others:

MODERATOR NOTICE: watch your pietrap cowboy! I don't care if it was a quote from a film or not, if you can't express yourself without swearing, just don't say anything.


Quote:But you can't isolate the arrogance eruptions in those two threads of Mirio and Samual and judge them without taking a look at what these two guys did for the project. They have spent countless hours in designing/coding the game and developing the community.
Except nobody asked them to do it, nobody required or forced them to do it. And now, they are asking for something that was never promised, and they knew it.
Quote:You can't claim the same for you, can you.
Nobody proved that i was an asshole, and i've made Ukrainian localization, created Ukrainian Wikipedia Xonotic page, reported problems (my first post on this forum) and recommended Xonotic on every forum where i was registered. And i didn't ask or receive anything for it. Everyone's equal in the open-source, because contributions are free and voluntary, yet you are claiming that someone is more equal than the others. Do you even understand the purpose of open-source?

And here's the post i promised:

So Samual made a thread, where he said that he's quiting Xonotic development unless he's given a green light on all his ideas, present and future. That's the ultimatum. According to him, here are the reasons why Xonotic project should go this way, i'm gonna write them down and then add my opinion:
*"I postulate that democratic design will NEVER work to build a game which can strive and push forward in regards to production and presentation quality."
*I cannot push forward the design of the project without fighting through 3 groups of people first.
*"Xonotic is in bad state overall, and only i know how to fix all the problems". (based on "the models are shit, the simpleitems art is shit, everything placed together IS SHIT" and then on "his view" of the game)

Now, what i think about all of this.

If Samual communicates like this with the rest of the team during development then i am not surprised that he has problems with proving his point or disproving someone's else. His OP post is horrendously written, with baseless arguments and rough generalizations.
"I understand that you want the project decisions to be entirely free, but the fact is, that doesn't work. It doesn't work for me, and I postulate that democratic design will NEVER work to build a game which can strive and push forward in regards to production and presentation quality."
If "it doesn't work for me", than the problem is in "me", in Samual, if however, "democratic design" doesn't work that's a huge baseless jab at the whole open-source movement. In both cases, Samual doesn't explain why democratic design doesn't work for him, or why it doesn't work at all. No arguments.

Then he says:
Quote:I don't have time or interest to argue my choices with everyone
Here situation is much clearer, it is obvious what is wrong right away. Samual "doesn't have nor time nor interest" to work in a team, so he wants the team removed, and only wants to have silent helpers. That's it, that's all.

There's almost no point to continue: there you have it, the Core team, there you have it, the Extended team, there you have it, Xonotic community. No matter what you will propose, there can't be any compromises, only Samual's way or the highway. He already received suggestions (make your own branch, stop being an asshole, look at your own mistakes before claiming that only other team members make mistakes), but he rejects them and keeps blaming others. Because he doesn't give a shit about teamwork.

Samual tries to make it look like he's the one and only who pushes Xonotic forward, he even managed to convince poor machine!, but is this really true? No, other people (team members including) already stated so. He's not the only one that sees problems and has solutions, and his solutions are not something special. "Hey, i want to make Xonotic fun and bug-free and popular! Now make me a lead designer, then do what i told you and shut up!". He actually wants us to shut up in
Quote:When it's combined, these models and design concepts are A FUCKING NIGHTMARE. There is no consistency in the design, the scaling is all wrong, the theming is all wrong. What do I want? I want to ditch all existing item pickups. I want to pick a unified 2D concept/design FIRST, which we will also use as the simpleitems and HUD icons for these items, and then we'll use those designs to build an EASILY-REPRODUCED STYLE for item pickup models that is centralized and controlled cleanly. I've had Sev (the artist who made the Xonotic font 'Xolonium', the map 'Xoylent', and the 'Luminos' default HUD and menu theme) working with me on such concepts for a bit now and i'll gladly show you piece of that to get you to shut up: http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/wbq3...89ume5.png -- FYI, if I leave, make sure not to fuck this part up when picking up my place, because it's pretty important.
"See these icons? They are perfect, don't want to hear anything, suck them down."
Here are my thoughts on some of these icons:
*Why there's caduceus on the Mega health? It's a sci-fi game, how about a fresh sci-fi symbol.
*Mega armor icon is just a blob of green color, while 5 Armor icon is barely visible, looks bare. I'd say that 50 Armor and 25 Armor icons could become the Mega armor and 5 Armor icons respectively, and then new icons for 50 and 25 armor should be designed to fit the new Mega and 5 Armor icons.
*Explosive ammo looks too much like burning fire and spikes/crystals. And electric arc.
*Cell ammo icon looks like a cell phone battery indicator. Come on, ha-ha.
*Why fuel has the radiation symbol as its logo? Is this established in the "lore", that all Xonotic vehicles are powered by nuclear energy? Quite banal and restricting, considering that this is a sci-fi video game.
*Why the hell strength powerup icon has a fist on it, it's a shooter game, you can't find a shooter related representation of strength?
*Shield powerup icon looks like another Armor icon.
*Speed powerup icon looks like a road sign, too bad i don't know the name of it, but i'm sure a lot of us have seen it.
*Invisibility icon is horrible, not clear at all. Looks like a rugby ball with a ribbon.
*Recycling sign? Really? You like to be laughed at?
*Ultra-healing i presume is the Regeneration from Quake 3. Looks like a triangular version of the Mega health.
*A goofy X-ray glasses from prop jokes magazines and comedy films. Hmmm...

The caduceus, the radiation symbol, a cell phone battery indicator, recycling symbol and a pair of goofy glasses... that's what Samual calls a "unified 2D design", "don't fuck it up team"! Or were those sev's ideas? Oops, not specified, just "me and Sev".

His position concerning the servers with "official" game mods and maps is also a controversial issue that was discussed before, but now he simply wants an ability to ignore any objections and do what he wants to do. He, and "like-minded administrators".

I have two final things to say:
1. If someone from the Core team just makes a thread where he blames almost everyone else, other Core team members included, and then asks for ability to do whatever the hell he wants, then the Core has a problem. I don't know HOW you people discuss things between yourself, HOW you organized your workflow, but if Samual comes from where it is OK to act like he acts, i have serious, serious doubts in Core's ability to work as a team. You have a problem.
2. There must be a verdict, the team must give Samual an answer, and such situation must not appear again in the future.

Honestly, if Samual will receive what he asks for, i'm going to laugh for half a minute straight, because then Xonotic will single-handedly outshine every forum, modding and open-source drama that i've ever seen. Then, i'll uninstall every open-source game i have on my PC and will forget about this place, unless maybe to laugh and say "Wow" sometimes.

Quote:Get someone to do the shit-filtering (development blog) for you and enjoy developing in peace.
Quote:And if you find a fitting shit-filter guy, you don't even have to explain/fight for your stuff every day.
Hire a shit-filter? And who the fuck in their right mind volunteers to be a shit-filter? How he will treat those posters? What will be defined as shit? Will Samual define it? He will simply ban everything he doesn't want to hear. Why the fuck Samual shouldn't "explain his stuff"? Do you even know what it's like to work a the team, Mossepo? You want to turn Xonotic into a crowd-funded game "by Samual and some freelance artists"? Are you sure Samual is even right, will you stand by each of his words? If so, i have bad news for ya, and they might be getting even worse.

Oh look, edh gave me a -1 without a single argument. That's the same level as Debugger, who called me a retard via an image.

I guess you two just don't know how to use words.

#68
(11-10-2013, 09:27 PM)Harmata Wrote: ...A guy asks for supreme decision rights in an open-source project, and people are more concerned with memes and karma points.

Maybe, just maybe, we've seen this before and are waiting, eating some popcorn for the latest twist. It's a soap opera of open-source egos and testosterone fuelled alpha males, while the memes and karma quantification are a small diversion from the gothic reality - the jugglers before the lions fight the gladiators, the wannabe popstars before Bieber hits the stage.

#69
Man, you're creeping me out, but kinda you're also right.

#70
(11-11-2013, 06:23 AM)Harmata Wrote:
Quote:I generally dislike your argumentation style, as it indeed comes across very arrogant and often agressive.
Not a single example presented.
Quote:Well, we have seen quite a few examples from you lately.
Not a single example presented.

Here you go (owngoal?):
Harmata Wrote:
Quote:If you do not be more civil in your posts and learn that some things should just be left alone you can continue to expect this.
Now let me tell you something, edh, Halogene and some others: you claim that i act like a dick, but you yourself act like pussies. And when some asshole starts shitting on pussies, the dick fucks the asshole, even if it makes him look dirty in the process, and some pussies like to be covered in shit. Freedom isn't free.

(11-11-2013, 06:23 AM)Harmata Wrote: I don't know HOW you people discuss things between yourself, HOW you organized your workflow, but if Samual comes from where it is OK to act like he acts, i have serious, serious doubts in Core's ability to work as a team. You have a problem.

Ok serious questions here:

- Why making a huge tl;dr-style post if you don't know about it?
- Why wasting so much time of your life with writing this? (Samual said he is done with this thread, so probably won't read it)

#71
Harmata, I'm not sure what your trolling spree is supposed to achieve, but since you are shitting on the icons, I might as well chime in.

What you have commented on is a draft of a concept. It is work in progress, which I regularly present to the team.

In any case, I simply am trying to revise my previous contributions and create a nice unified theme, instead of complaining about other people's work.
THAT is what open-source is about. Take it or leave it.

#72
Quote:Now let me tell you something, edh, Halogene and some others: you claim that i act like a dick, but you yourself act like pussies. And when some asshole starts shitting on pussies, the dick fucks the asshole, even if it makes him look dirty in the process, and some pussies like to be covered in shit. Freedom isn't free.
A quote from Team America wittingly adapted to the situation in this thread? How about some examples from before i was called arrogant and had to explain why it's not true?
Quote:Why making a huge tl;dr-style post if you don't know about it?
I know Samual, he's behavior tells about other things.
Quote:Why wasting so much time of your life with writing this? (Samual said he is done with this thread, so probably won't read it)
I didn't do it for Samual (i knew he would ignore it, duh, he ignores his teammates), but i wanted to make the OP post more clear for myself and others, and then post my own opinion, because i care about what happens with Xonotic. So far.
Quote:Positive (+1): gief more
GOD DAMN IT MIRIO

Quote:Harmata, I'm not sure what your trolling spree is supposed to achieve
Whoa, all respect for the person who made so much cool stuff is lost in a moment...

Quote:but since you are shitting on the icons
Oh, so that's why you work together with Samual, just like him you call every opinion you don't understand or accept "shitting".

Quote:What you have commented on is a draft of a concept.
So what did i do, commented or shitted?

Quote:It is work in progress, which I regularly present to the team.
Do they give you feedback? Do you call their feedback "shitting"?

Quote:In any case, I simply am trying to revise my previous contributions and create a nice unified theme
And i pointed out things about these icons which in my opinion do not allow that.

Quote:instead of complaining about other people's work.
So what did i do, commented, shitted or complained? Make up your mind.

Better tell us what was Samual's part with these icons, so we could appreciate the work of a design genius. Don't forget, Samual posted that image to shut us up by putting in awe.

#73
(11-11-2013, 06:23 AM)Harmata Wrote: Nobody proved that i was an asshole

How do you think would such a proof look like? I think it's not the community that can prove you're an asshole, that proof can be only brought up by yourself (and you're on a good way as far as I am concerned). Besides, I didn't say that you were an asshole, I just said your posts come across arrogant and aggressive. That's how I perceive them, and your recent posts confirm this impression.

While agreeing that Samual's (and, to some extent, Mirio's) threads deliver a very unfortunate impression of personality, your choice of words doesn't exactly paint a better picture of you. Both Samual and Mirio got critical reactions on their threads, so don't be surprised about people criticizing your way of expression. I consider bashing at critiques in obscene language a very immature move.
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Latest track on soundcloud: Farewell - to a better Place (piano improvisation)
New to Xonotic? Check out the Newbie Corner!


#74
(11-11-2013, 07:58 AM)Harmata Wrote: Better tell us what was Samual's part with these icons, so we could appreciate the work of a design genius. Don't forget, Samual posted that image to shut us up by putting in awe.

I don't even.
The icons for simple items are by sev and so is the draft screenshot.

So basically if someone else would've posted it (except me ofc), it would be alright? Fuck logic.

#75
Quote:How do you think would such a proof look like?
Those people who think that i'm arrogant should have quoted my words that made them think that, and then explain why they consider them arrogant.
(also, how about them "no respect" and "childish" remarks).
Couldn't you at least wait for my explanation of such simple concept as proof (argument, actually) before hitting that -1 button? You crack me up little buddy. In a bad way.

I know why some people thing that i'm aggressive: this evading of conflict for any price is caused by inability to deal with the conflict. "Who cares who is wrong or right, stop yelling at each other people! Everything is fine!"
"Dude, we were just discussing that new tax, we weren't even screa..."
"ITS ALL ABOUT LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP WHICH IS MAGIC GOD DAMN IT!!!"

Quote:I don't even.
Quote:I've had Sev (the artist who made the Xonotic font 'Xolonium', the map 'Xoylent', and the 'Luminos' default HUD and menu theme) working with me on such concepts for a bit now and i'll gladly show you piece of that to get you to shut up: http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/wbq3...89ume5.png



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