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Poll: Which settings would you like to see as default in 0.8?
This poll is closed.
Reversion tourney
30.00%
9 30.00%
Keep vanilla
20.00%
6 20.00%
Reversion, but with tweaks (post which)
50.00%
15 50.00%
Total 30 vote(s) 100%
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Default balance

#26
I think it MIGHT be a good idea to make weapon projectile faster. It will make them easier and will counter insane speeds. Would be allied to crylink, electro, mortar, Hagar, probably not RL.
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#27
(11-15-2014, 03:34 PM)machine! Wrote: It surely is overpowered, at least if we gonna keep the old weapon switching system.

Based on what? From my experience you cannot play only with nex. Especially in duel you will get rushed with rockets/crylink/hagar easily if you only have a nex to defend yourself. If you make the nex weaker, you will also have to adjust other weapons. You cannot make the nex 60dmg if a sg+laser combo easily deals at least the same amount of damage etc. But lowering the dmg dealt by spawn weapons for example will put beginners at a disadvantage. That's why we rather tried to make underpowered weapons stronger, and try avoid nerfing if possible.

Also, in my opinion, before adjusting the nex damage, we should first include the arc gun so we can make a coherent balance altogether.

p.s.: old switching system never has been used in the reversion config for the nex.
0.6 -> 0.2ms switch delay
0.7 -> 0.3ms switch delay
rev -> 0.25ms switch delay
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#28
Based on personal preference, I prefer to have it used same amount as the rest of the weapons, not being a third mega item.
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#29
(11-15-2014, 05:23 PM)machine! Wrote: Based on personal preference, I prefer to have it used same amount as the rest of the weapons, not being a third mega item.

With Xonotic weapons being balanced to be good in certain situations, it is logical that certain weapons are used more often than others. Simply as a result of some situations occurring way more often than others. And currently, in situations that require a hitscan weapon, the nex is the weapon of choice (due to a lack of alternatives). Samual tried to make the nex mainly usable on long range, when it is safe to pull it out. But what happened? There was no weapon left for other situations that require a hitscan weapon and the game felt clumsy and incomplete.
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#30
It didn't felt clumsy and incomplete, to me (and many others). It felt more balanced and less random. Also combat was much more fun because people actually was able to pull off airshots. Of course the argument that then it becomes less skilled, then I say: yes, it required less skill to make an airshot, but instead of happening 1/10 games it happened 1/3 games, which to me make it seem like with that gravity it actually became more skill because before it was utterly completely only luck.

I hear a lot of people say that rl became too strong in 0.8, the very same people are the ones relying very very much on nex in 0.6 balance. Not saying this as an argument for my preference, I am better with rl than with nex, but just to show the community is divided which of these weapons should be the more used one. You say there are more situations where Nex would be useful, but we who like 0.8 learned different ways (which we felt was more fun) of handling those situations. This is something were a trade-off will happen, and that's why it's good this thread has a poll so we can see if there is a clear majority on either side, because what most people prefer *should* be the one used.
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#31
Everyone has their own personal preferences of course, but I cannot recall a single duel with the rev settings in which the nex was dominating. If you have one, feel free to link the demo. I can however remember people not being able to withstand specialone's aggressive, rocket-heavy style in the group stage of the rev cup. Similarly, I get owned a lot by Mirio's hagar and crylink in tdm in short/midrange fights if I only have the nex. Why? Because all those weapons are very strong if you can use them. Btw, if you want to encourage airshots, make a direct rocket hit significantly stronger than its splashdamage. It is not necessary to cripple other weapons for that.

Quote:and that's why it's good this thread has a poll so we can see if there is a clear majority on either side, because what most people prefer *should* be the one used.

This poll only gives a rough indication, it obviously lacks a representative sample. For example you could say that people who do not play anymore because of the settings do not visit the forums regularly anymore and therefore are less likely to vote. It also does not include future players that will try the game on the 0.8 release.

An indicator however for popularity might be that people returned to the game after the rev settings have been introduced on the servers.
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#32
asyyy Wrote:An indicator however for popularity might be that people returned to the game after the rev settings have been introduced on the servers.
+1

For me, 0.7 feels even more random than 0.6, I think the RL has a much higher weight right now (see asyyy's explanation). However, a more human speed of the game would probably relativize some of the big differences. (Sorry, I dont want to blame the physics all the time and miss the topic again.)
However, airshots should be no criterion; dependent on gravity, air movement and projectile speed you'll be able to hit some or not (or you're lucky)...

As for my point of view of the balance:
Shotgun does insane damage, at least primary fire could be less strong; laser switch seems slightly too fast (this allows easy abuse).
Mortar could be more of a real grenadelauncher (i.e. a smaller radius of the projectile) while the RLs projectile is too fast and has a too high radius (curving) IMO.
For the crylink, I'd not like to see the 0.7 secondary fire come back because it felt too random and weird.

Yet again I think the weapons really relate to the physics: The crylink was designed to fulfill this very purpose (moving around fastly and preventing others from moving around properly), the RL has a high radius and projectile speed to catch all the super fast players.
Therefore, changes need to be done together with physics changes I think.
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#33
Would just like to say, hagar and crylink are not overpowered.

Hear this all the time, it's just they finally get used now. Like any weapon, if someone gets good with it, it seems strong.

I like the current settings, I would rather see work on the armour system instead.
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#34
(11-15-2014, 07:13 PM)asyyy Wrote: Everyone has their own personal preferences of course, but I cannot recall a single duel with the rev settings in which the nex was dominating. If you have one, feel free to link the demo. I can however remember people not being able to withstand specialone's aggressive, rocket-heavy style in the group stage of the rev cup. Similarly, I get owned a lot by Mirio's hagar and crylink in tdm in short/midrange fights if I only have the nex. Why? Because all those weapons are very strong if you can use them. Btw, if you want to encourage airshots, make a direct rocket hit significantly stronger than its splashdamage. It is not necessary to cripple other weapons for that.

You don't seem to get my point. The major difference in 0.8 was weapon switch time and physics (crylink got buffed of course, but I think most people agree this was a good thing). Airshots will not happen more just because they do more damage, they will happen more if you lower gravity and make mortar a safer choice to switch to than Nex. Nex became less used in combos, not removed from combos. Instead of being used in "spamming" situations it was more used appropriatly in comparison with other weapons combo usage. The 0.8 balance was really solid, it was just solid in a different way Xonotic ever has been. I think 0.6 is better for the game as a whole, but 0.8 was a very good game in its own right. I just find it sad that it didn't appeal to the majority of the community, if just a few more players had enjoyed it more then the others would actually learned how to play it.

Also, judging how many actually enjoy a balance by how many people coming back from a big event will not really show any good guidlines for which balance is better. A big event of any kind will of course bring back players for a while, we will have to wait a few months and see if it actually was the paradigm switch that made people come back or just the initial kick that led to more people play. I also recall that there was a lot more tourneys back in the day, which obviously have a big influence on playerbase.
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#35
Do you mean 0.7 when you say 0.8? It is a little confusing if you talk about a future release in past tense.
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#36
By 0.8 I mean 0.7 with the new physics. (0.7 had same physics as in 0.6)
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#37
ok,over these days i played more and more reversion and i have to say,i changed my mind from vanilla to reversion.
[Image: 22172.png]
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#38
Hi.

I think you shouldn't hurry to release new standard balance because it'll be
hard to change it later. I like movement and rocket turning change in reversion
but I don't like nex buff and electro nerf.

(11-15-2014, 11:33 AM)machine! Wrote: 60dmg with 90dmg if charged (hold for 3 sec or something then release, charged
This! I'm not sure about the values though. I've suggested this change some time
ago. Charging Nex like you charge Hagar would make Nex unique and IMO more fun.
I'd also add sound. I works great in QL where you can hear opponent with LG or
Rail. In case of the Nex the weapon could be silent by default and only emit
sound while charging/charged. Check QL railgun sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9OvuCIxbY0 (it's not that loud on map).

(11-15-2014, 03:09 PM)asyyy Wrote: What makes you think that the nexgun is overpowered in the current rev balance?
Or do you mean overused? If it is the latter, then that will change once the lg
is being introduced, as atm the nexgun is the only hitscan weapon without
spread.
Rail works nicely with LG in QL because there you are punished for missed rail
shot by 1.5 second delay. But I wouldn't like such delay in Xonotic. That's why
Nex needs to be crippled in some other way.

(11-15-2014, 03:09 PM)asyyy Wrote: Based on what? From my experience you cannot play only with nex. Especially in
duel you will get rushed with rockets/crylink/hagar easily if you only have a
nex to defend yourself.
If Electro shouldn't be assault weapon, why should Nex be good at close range
combat? It doesn't fit my view of that weapon (with optics).

(11-15-2014, 03:09 PM)asyyy Wrote: If you make the nex weaker, you will also have to adjust other weapons. You
cannot make the nex 60dmg if a sg+laser combo easily deals at least the same
amount of damage etc. But lowering the dmg dealt by spawn weapons for example
will put beginners at a disadvantage.
Such things happen but not that fequently. Usually the player with spawn weapons
looses against the player with Nex et all. It goes both ways anyway. By buffing
the Nex you don't give newbies a chance to fight with spawn weapons.

(11-15-2014, 07:13 PM)asyyy Wrote: An indicator however for popularity might be that people returned to the game
after the rev settings have been introduced on the servers.
I don't agree with that. More people played the game before few people have
returned. Btw, is there some list (text document) of weapon balance changes in
reversion?

WRT electro:
I never minded that someone with electro jumped at me from spawn and fragged me
when I had a lot of armor (I acknowledge my mistakes and lack of abilities).
Xonotic stats of top ranked players says that electro was not one of 2 most
damage dealing weapons during 0.7 [1][2]. It's dominated by Nex (and Rox) [1].
Certainly Electro wasn't abused that much and Nex was used to its full extent.
In other words, combos with Nex still ruled. Then why nerf Electro and buff Nex
all of sudden? Electro can suck in CA but IMO that's because of inferior
teamplay in Xonotic CA compared to QL CA (there you can be gang bang pwned on
start in about same amout of time). Also I don't like how covertly it was
changed and I don't buy the "I bet you won't recognize the difference" as a
valid reason. There should probably be poll.

Also, @asyyy, I don't understand what do you mean when you say on IRC how duel
or Xonotic is suppossed to be played. What is your reference? QL? Nexuiz?

[1] Unverified claim
[2] If XonStats graph shows full history. It should have date on X axis, not Game ID.

tl;dr: reversion: movement is nice, rocket turning is nice, rest sucks

[Image: OYvkngZ.png] I'm woky on IRC.
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#39
I agree with woky/shogun here. I think the vanilla nex damage has been lowered for a valid reason.

With current reversion settings you can't make a single laser jump without getting killed by a single nex shot instantly, nor can you wall-laser yourself out of reach when you have not yet managed to equip yourself to engage the opponent in control. If you are not in control, you will find yourself very often in the position that you have 100/0 h/a when you encounter the opponent: you can't pick up 25/50 h items, shards give away your position very easily while often not giving enough health/armor boost to outweigh the disadvantage of the noise, and armor is generally hard to get since it is usually rare. Megas are out of the question anyway. So you spawn and naturally try to avoid the enemy unless you find something that you actually can pick up. It is already hard to regain control in vanilla, but if you can't even move properly without making Nex instagib, this gets even harder. Especially taking into conisderation that you can hit anything in sight instantly with nex no matter what distance.

This leads, especially in duels, to intensifying the effect of being in control of a map. I don't think this is a good idea, with breaking map control being already hard as it is - unless you enjoy rape games.

As stated yesterday on IRC, I start to get the impression that some of the changes in reversion settings result from proficient players getting annoyed about occasionally getting fragged despite being in control or not being able to frag fast players that quickly when in control. This blends interestingly with observing situations like this since/with reversion settings:
  • insisting to play with same teams after 2 tdm matches where mercy limit kicked in after a couple of minutes, or
  • complaining about teams until getting a team that starts to lead by 40 points after latest 5 minutes (and calling it "competitive" afterwards...), or
  • complaining about the server not being really conveninent or to miss so many nex shots (accuracy: 41%) after a game that ends 172:82 to your favor.

I was asked yesterday on IRC "So maybe it's just not the game you are looking for?"

No, this is not what I am looking for.
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#40
I don't want to turn this discussion into argument. I'll just add:

@asyyy, you have nerfed the Electro because you hated* in-game (!) machine for "abusing" electro with fast attacks AFAIK. I absolutely hate* in-game machine with electro! I also hate* in-game Halogene and in-game Mirio for "abusing" fast movement. But I can take my mistakes and I remember there were times when I was able to counter my inferior movement skill with good tactics and good aim. Sure it's hard, but I know it's doable. Some may think of Electro rush as something lame and spammy. I for one think that Nex being necessary part of all combos (because it's NOT like Rail in QL/CPMA) is boring. I believe that most Xonotic players aren't able to roll out such nice rushes anyway. I'm all for good changes that'll improve balance (see the Nex charging idea **) but this one is too simple and IMO based on invalid assumption. (That it'll push balance fairness (!) to the level of QL/CPMA where the balance is almost perfect. It won't.). + what Halogene said.

Anyway, you're right that Arc will probably break everything. Gotta try it soon...

* as in "FU!"

**
*) Pressing LMB deals X damage instantly.
*) Holding RMB "logarithmically"[1] charges Nex until X+Y damage in time T. Nex emits constant *** sound while RMB is held (charging / fully charged).
*) Pressing LMB or switching weapon cancels the charge while charging / fully charged.
*) Releasing RMB deals X+C damage where C is the current amount charge.
*) No timeout like with Hagar! (I hate that.) That's what the sound is for.
With such Nex X+Y being 90 dmg (or more?) would even make sense and you can still fast switch from Nex. I for one don't think that having zoom as Nex secondary is such a convenience worth keeping. This however will keep Nex necessary part of all combos unless the X is decreased even more (40 dmg?) which wouldn't be so bad because charging is logarithmic and reaching good enough long range damage is quite fast. Sure, someone would have to volunteer to implement this change but that's open future and it's better to think more first than regret in future.

*** This needs more thought. There could be high-frequency beeps (= easier to sense and locate) at certain levels of charge in addition to constant sound (bzzzzz, see YT link in my previous post). Or maybe the sound shouldn't be constant but noisier with increasing charge. But then someone may prefer not to charge fully to not give away position with the last beep / loudest sound which isn't possible with proposed controls.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...ks.svg.png
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#41
About the 2 most hated weapons Crylink and Hagar:
I think the Hagar is fine actually.It's not too strong and when you try to use it,it can be hard to hit with it actually.And the secondary fire mode is ok because of the rocket time limit.
The crylink should be more of a tool to mess up the enemy movement.The 0.7 secondary is a lot better than the 0.6 one.So make the crylink damage a bit lower.Saw it too often that some people are raping you with the crylink from behind and you don't have a slight chance.Also in tight corridors when people are fighting in there and a crylink spammer comes around,both are doomed.
Take the reversion physics and health system just for duels.In my opinion reversion works best in duels.
I am VERY excited about 0.8.
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#42
I would like to add to what woky said, previously when I've played zrg on hub we usually win as many matches, our win/lose rate is same to eachother. With the changes though he totally dominates me, I can't stand a single chance, dying mostly by spawn kills and nex shots from every angle. Before I was able to stay out of sight hitting curving rockets and electros when I was down. But now my only chance is to control nex from start, and if I don't it's almost impossible to win because his positioning is too good to simply rush. Nerfing nex, buffing electro would certainly help this situations to make hub more enjoyable imo. Also maybe lower gravity a little bit (so you can't camp nex then jump down as safely as you can with reversion balance).

EDIT: Also by nerfing I don't mean to make less powerful, I mean make it less abused in combos and encourage more situational use. See my suggestions in previous post.

EDIT2: Shogun's nex suggestion is what I meant in my previous suggestions. Starting values could be 50dmg standard, 95 fully charged, then maybe let it take 2 sec to charge it full.
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#43
With a manual charging everyone will run around with the Nex in hand, cause you want to hit full damage in the fights.
We had it in 0.1 and it was bad, thus there is auto-charge. Tongue
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#44
(11-17-2014, 07:42 AM)Mirio Wrote: With a manual charging everyone will run around with the Nex in hand, cause you want to hit full damage in the fights.
We had it in 0.1 and it was bad, thus there is auto-charge. Tongue

AFAIR charging Nex in 0.1 was different from what I and machine describe and it sucked. That's why I posted this at that time http://forums.xonotic.org/archive/index....-1347.html .

How is it worse than running with charged Nex in 0.7 / reversion? With manual charging as described above you need some time to charge it before every shot and you can't just switch to other weapon and then switch back to fully charged Nex. It also gives away your position. But I agree that LMB becomes kinda useless with such charging. Here's my new proposal:

*) Pressing RMB cancels current charge.
*) Holding RMB cancels current charge and starts "logarithmically"[1] charging Nex from X damage until X+Y damage in time T. Nex emits constant *** sound while Nex is charged above X damage.
*) Releasing RMB stops charging.
*) Pressing LMB deals X+C damage where C is the current amount charge.
*) Switching away from Nex cancels current charge.

Since the charging is logarithmic you can still quickly switch to Nex and do good damage in little amount of time. It's also more intuitive IMO. The important point is that charged Nex gives away position. But it's just an idea.

EDIT: The proposal above is wrong. It needs more input and thought.
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#45
Quote:Also, @asyyy, I don't understand what do you mean when you say on IRC how duel
or Xonotic is suppossed to be played. What is your reference? QL? Nexuiz?

It all comes down to this indeed. And indeed, duel is to me what you had in Quake, UT and Nexuiz. Check the xonotic.org frontpage: "[Xonotic] could be considered most similar to Unreal Tournament and Quake at its heart, especially regarding teamplay and game mechanics.". Obviously it rose from Nexuiz, so is it really unreasonable to claim that duel in Xonotic should take those games as a reference?

To quote halogene from last night: "Xonotic is about running around and doing flick shots"
Yes sure, play ca then. I don't come to ctf and say, ctf is about fragging, please remove the flags. You don't go to a chess club and tell everyone to play poker.


Quote:If Electro shouldn't be assault weapon, why should Nex be good at close range
combat? It doesn't fit my view of that weapon (with optics)

As I explained earlier, atm the nex is the only weapon with which you can deal damage with certainty (if you hit). You have, however, plenty of other weapons that can be used when rushing the enemy, e.g. hagar, mortar, crylink and the rocket launcher.


Quote:With current reversion settings you can't make a single laser jump without getting killed by a single nex shot instantly

There are different ways to fix this. Again, crippling weapons is not the only way to go.


Quote:As stated yesterday on IRC, I start to get the impression that some of the changes in reversion settings result from proficient players getting annoyed about occasionally getting fragged despite being in control or not being able to frag fast players that quickly when in control. This blends interestingly with observing situations like this since/with reversion settings:
insisting to play with same teams after 2 tdm matches where mercy limit kicked in after a couple of minutes, or
complaining about teams until getting a team that starts to lead by 40 points after latest 5 minutes (and calling it "competitive" afterwards...), or
complaining about the server not being really conveninent or to miss so many nex shots (accuracy: 41%) after a game that ends 172:82 to your favor.

If you start arguing on such a personal level, you should ask yourself if you are in the right position to judge on this subject objectively.


Quote:Also I don't like how covertly it was changed and I don't buy the "I bet you won't recognize the difference" as a valid reason. There should probably be poll.

If you ask people what they want, everyone offers a lot of ideas and wishes. But who actually takes the effort to make a polished, coherent balance from it. Thus, not only calling numbers but actually implementing it, testing it, tweaking it, testing it again etc? The answer is, you can count those people on one hand.

Edit: typos
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#46
(11-17-2014, 08:25 AM)asyyy Wrote: If you ask people what they want, everyone offers a lot of ideas and wishes. But who actually takes the effort to make a polished, coherent balance from it. Thus, not only calling numbers but actually implementing it, testing it, tweaking it, testing it again etc? The answer is, you can count those people on one hand.

You changed one weapon based purely on your personal preferences with little testing without telling anyone. I don't appreciate that kind of work. You have to do it properly or don't do it. If you want to make Electro weaker in 0.8 make proper poll to prove that it's actually what players want. I don't remember anyone complaining about it before (in 0.7). The burden of proof is on you. You can start by creating a text document that'll describe all changes in reversion in detail so it's accessible to people like me.

(11-17-2014, 08:25 AM)asyyy Wrote: If you start arguing on such a personal level, you should ask yourself if you are in the right position to judge on this subject objectively.

(Offensive statements) I share the same feelings with Halogene. You mentioned that success of reversion can be measured by how many players have returned. I'm aware of two skilled inactive players who recently became active thanks to reversion. One is telling me how Xonotic should be played and the other one will rather fake Internet connection problems than admit defeat. I appreciate the effort you put into the tourney but if these returnees are the result of reversion then thank you very much but I've had enough fun with Xonotic before they returned. The point is, why should they decide how will Xonotic look like in future?
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#47
I'll be collecting suggestions in this thread then make a poll or ask individual players more precisily what they want changed/reverted. Not to base a balance on it, but to get more precis and representive data on different balancing opinions.
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#48
Quote:You changed one weapon based purely on your personal preferences with little testing without telling anyone.

Wrong. It has been discussed on irc, and I gave the config files to everyone who requested them. It has been tested in the reversioncup (and all the practice matches). Based on that testing, the electro actually has been adjusted again. When did you test your ideas and asked people for feedback about it, so you could adjust it?. It is always easy to point your finger at someone who actually tries to change things.


Quote:If you want to make Electro weaker in 0.8 make proper poll to prove that it's actually what players want.

Once again, the electro is part of a coherent concept. I don't say it cannot or won't be made stronger in some way, but every change affects other things, it is like a clockwork. And I don't see many people taking the time to actually understand how it all works together. On a side note, a poll is never a "proof". It can however give an indication about the whole population, if certain requirements are met, e.g. a proper sample size. However, polls on this forum usually don't meet that requirement so the results have to be viewed critically.


Quote:You mentioned that success of reversion can be measured by how many players have returned.

I did not write that. Read again.


Quote:The point is, why should they decide how will Xonotic look like in future?

"We" don't decide what will be the official balance. But "we" will play whatever is the most fun to us in the future. And as vanilla gameplay is mostly dead aside of the cups, well, that is what Xonotic will look like.
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#49

(11-17-2014, 09:09 AM)asyyy Wrote: Wrong. It has been discussed on irc, and I gave the config files to everyone who
requested them. It has been tested in the reversioncup (and all the practice
matches). Based on that testing, the electro actually has been adjusted again.
When did you test your ideas and asked people for feedback about it, so you
could adjust it?
. It is always easy to point your finger at someone who
actually tries to change things.

Discussed with who? Adjusted how? I remember you discussed it with me late at
night when most people were offline. I didn't test anything because there was no
need for it
. Why do you try to make an impression of doing something that
everyone called for when it's not true?

(11-17-2014, 09:09 AM)asyyy Wrote: Once again, the electro is part of a coherent concept. I don't say it cannot or
won't be made stronger in some way, but every change affects other things, it is
like a clockwork. And I don't see many people taking the time to actually
understand how it all works together. On a side note, a poll is never a "proof".
It can however give an indication about the whole population, if certain
requirements are met, e.g. a proper sample size. However, polls on this forum
usually don't meet that requirement so the results have to be viewed critically.

It all comes down to your opinion that Xonotic should look according something
only you understand.

(11-17-2014, 09:09 AM)asyyy Wrote: I did not write that. Read again.

asyyy Wrote:An indicator however for popularity might be that people returned to the game
after the rev settings have been introduced on the servers.

(11-17-2014, 09:09 AM)asyyy Wrote: "We" don't decide what will be the official balance. But "we" will play whatever
is the most fun to us in the future. And as vanilla gameplay is mostly dead
aside of the cups, well, that is what Xonotic will look like.

No it's not dead and it wasn't dead before you returned.

I need a break. I only hope reversion as it is now won't make it into 0.8
without proper discussion.
[Image: OYvkngZ.png] I'm woky on IRC.
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#50
Talking with kojn (one of reversion admins) about electro didn't gave me the impression this was part of something bigger, he didn't even knew about it and before and after testing said it was something that didn't need to be changed.

In fact, the whole reversion balance is 0.6 with some very minor changes done by a few (or maybe just asyyy, don't know) with very little transparency. Yes, it was used in a big cup, but it was not like the participants automatically endorse it. Except the electro change it played almost like 0.6 after all, same good things and same flaws.
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