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[SUGGESTION] VODKA RULESET

#1
DOWNLOAD CFGs HERE: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mldogl5apr2k11...3.zip?dl=0

Packer generously lent me space in his servers to test run an experimental ruleset. You can test it in pickup and duel (pacman, fps, wtwrp) servers. To enable the changes use the vote "vcall vodka" and vote it again if you change game modes. EDIT: You can also now play it on Hub servers with same vote.

So to the point, here's the changes:
  • synced weaponswitch/delay across all weapons (comboing is now consistent)
  • weapon self damage changed from 65% to 100%
  • machinegun reload removed
  • electro primary normal/combo radius are now both 100
  • electro combo/secondary damage are now both 50
  • electro combo/secondary radius are now both 200
  • crylink secondary is now a single 25-100 dmg projectile
  • crylink secondary radius changed from 100 to 25
  • crylink secondary refire changed from 0.7 to 1
  • crylink secondary uses 6 ammo
  • vortex nerfed (60dmg), charge removed
  • vortex fire rate changed from 1.5 to 1.2
  • vortex push force changed from 400 to 250
  • devastator buffed (25-100dmg)
  • devastator fire rate changed from 1.1 to 1.2
  • devastator detonation nerfed (25-50dmg)
  • devastator radius changed from 110 to 125
  • devastator uses 6 ammo
  • health regen removed
  • health rot is now linear ~1hp/s and starts 5 seconds after last pickup
  • armor rot same as above
  • instant spawning, delay up to 5 sec
  • random spawn location
  • no additional changes to weapons: blaster, shotgun, mortar, hagar
VERSION 2 CHANGES:
  • blaster primary edge damage changed from 10 to 15
  • shotgun solidpenetration removed
  • shotgun primary refire changed from 0.75 to 0.7
  • shotgun melee damage changed from 70 to 60
  • shotgun melee refire changed from 1.25 to 1
  • shotgun melee range changed from 120 to 90
  • shotgun melee force changed from 200 to 400
  • machinegun solidpenetration removed
  • machinegun spread values "halved"
  • machinegun damage 9
  • machinegun burst 4
  • mortar primary/secondary micro-buff 30-60dmg
  • mortar primary/secondary refire now both 0.7
  • electro primary force 100
  • electro primary radius 0
  • electro primary comboradius 200
  • electro combo radius back to default
  • electro combo buff 40-120dmg
  • electro combo/secondary force 300
  • electro secondary buff 20-80dmg
  • electro secondary now shoots single shots
  • electro secondary lifetime 2
  • electro secondary speed_up switched from 200 to 80 (feels easier to control their placement)
  • crylink secondary edgedamage 15
  • crylink secondary refire 1.2
  • crylink secondary consumes 8 ammo (each weapon/ammo pickup provides 5 shots)
  • vortex compromise-buff 65dmg
  • vortex consumes 4 ammo
  • hagar primary/secondary speed now both 2200
  • devastator micronerf 25-90dmg
  • devastator consumes 8 ammo (each weapon/ammo pickup provides 5 shots)
  • falling damage is now 0 (was too random/inconsistent anyway)
  • strength damage 4
  • strength force 1 (so you don't get pasted on the skybox in space maps)
  • shield protection 75%
  • machinegun ammo from weapons: 35
  • machinegun ammo from ammo-pickup: 65
  • machinegun ammo max: 150
  • cells ammo from weapons: 40
  • cells ammo from ammo-pickup: 40
  • cells ammo max: 160
VERSION 3 CHANGES:
  • Crylink secondary refire changed from 1.2 to 0.8
  • Shotgun refire changed from 0.7 to 0.6
  • Shotgun spread changed from 0.12 to 0.1
  • Shotgun bullets changed from 12 to 8
  • Shotgun damage changed from 48 to 40
  • Arc primary delay removed (kinda messes up the weaponswitch consistency, but I didn't see other way)
  • Arc primary has less bending and is more accurate now
  • Arc primary damage buffed from 100 to 140 (I don't know how the damage is calculated here, but it's stronger now)
  • Arc secondary shoots bolts ala hagar (2 ammo per shot)
  • Arc secondary speed changed from 2300 (hagar default) to 3000
Some explanations/intentions:
  • Self damage changes are to equalize splash fights. In my opinion splash should deal equal amount of damage to both shooter and target, given the radius is equal.
  • Weaponswitch changes are to emphasize Xonotic's weapon comboing traits, which I think makes Xonotic unique from other arenaFPS. In general, I want there to be more incentive to use multiple weapons instead of just one.
  • Machinegun reload removed because I think it's inconsistent with rest of the weapons.
  • Electro changes are to reduce spam and increase application in area denial independent of the combo feature.
  • Crylink changes are to just have another useful long range weapon for combos. Similar to how there's essentially "two rocket launchers" for close range.
  • Vortex changes are to reduce it's over use and make it harder to win fights with Vortex only. Vortex may be weaker, but it still plays important role in tying combos together.
  • Devastator changes are to give incentive to NOT detonate rockets midair, but can still do it with reduced reward. It's stronger when you hit direct hits, but weaker when you hit around your opponent. 
  • Health/Armor changes are to give higher reward to health/armor pickups. Current rot rates drops the value of mega items too much in my opinion.
  • Spawn changes are an effort to minimize spawn killing and scenario repetition.
Give it a test and report your experience and critique here in this thread
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#2
Were you consuming vodka while creating this or are you sponsored? Shy
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IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
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#3
Vod.. *burp* vodka may have been my inspiration yes.
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#4
Machinegun without reload can be too op, especially in dm and ca.
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#5
also crylink run doesn't seem to work any more
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#6
(12-13-2017, 04:25 PM)morosophos Wrote: also crylink run doesn't seem to work any more

It does, you just gotta be closer to the impact since the radius is lowered from 100 to 25.
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#7
Looks like you made the changes to complement your playstyle more to be honest.

I like the devastator and electro changes damage wise and bigger radius but the vortex change you said you did to force people not to use it on its own essentially. So thats pushing people towards a specific play style.
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#8
(12-13-2017, 07:07 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Looks like you made the changes to complement your playstyle more to be honest.

I like the devastator and electro changes damage wise and bigger radius but the vortex change you said you did to force people not to use it on its own essentially. So thats pushing people towards a specific play style.

Can't you make that argument about any balance set? The general agenda here is to even out the playing field between heavy hitting and resource control. The intention is to compensate the Vortex nerf with: 1. Faster weaponswitch 2. People being weaker from blaster jumps (100% self damage) 3. Faster fire rate. So you can still apply your Vortex aim like before, but now it's just less blatantly dominating playstyle and there is more incentive to combo.
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#9
Interesting ideas, however (without testing it) I have a few concerns:
  • Crylink secondary: The max damage of 100 is an instakill on newly spawned players, I fear that it will be OP
  • Crylink secondary: The radius is pretty small, I don't think that this will help in long range battles
  • Vortex nerf might be to much, I really don't think it's as OP as many people claim (considering that it doesn't move your opponent around as much as other weapons do)
  • Devastator buff is not needed. Imo it's already the most powerful weapon in the game (it has highest damage already, you can steer the rockets, you don't need line of sight, it has a big splash damage area and also has a high push force moving your opponent around and messing with their aim). Again the max damage is an instakill on newly spawned players.
Edit:
The vortex charge actually encourages weapon switching, the drop in damage is just too low imo.
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#10
(12-14-2017, 10:25 AM)Freddy Wrote:
  • Crylink secondary: The max damage of 100 is an instakill on newly spawned players, I fear that it will be OP
  • Crylink secondary: The radius is pretty small, I don't think that this will help in long range battles
The instakill is intentional. After testing with Dekry and Solid (who are about as good as dodging as I am). I came to the belief that it's not very efficient in open areas, but instead very good at dealing damage in choke points with predictable routes from long/mid range in particular. The downside to this weapon is that it's very hard to hit directly and it consumes 6 ammos per shot.
(12-14-2017, 10:25 AM)Freddy Wrote: [*]Devastator buff is not needed. Imo it's already the most powerful weapon in the game (it has highest damage already, you can steer the rockets, you don't need line of sight, it has a big splash damage area and also has a high push force moving your opponent around and messing with their aim). Again the max damage is an instakill on newly spawned players.
[*]
Instakill is also intented here, like it is in Quakeworld and CPMA. It may look OP when you look at the damage, but what I did here was in actuality nerf it's practicality in dealing splash damage. Despite the instakill potential, on it's own it's not really that dominating. From the experience I had with Dekry and Solid using rockets against me, I was more the less on even terms with mortar. Rocket also now consumes 6 ammo instead of the usual 4.

What if I changed Vortex damage to 65 and lowered ammo consumption from 6 to 4?
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#11
(12-13-2017, 07:07 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Looks like you made the changes to complement your playstyle more to be honest.

I was thinking the same thing to be honest Big Grin
Seriously though, mostly these are great changes with some twerky tweaks that are... not so great.
My 10 cents:


Things that I think are bad:

- Removing the reload for MG. It might be underused, but that doesn't mean it's underpowered. While the focus of this config is probably duel, it would pretty much wreck everything in deathmatch, as Morosophos stated above. Also it definitely is strong enough for any large-room fighting situations in duel, provided you can aim with it. My suggestion: Remove the spread instead and make it hit 8 damage per hit but leave the reload. MG accuracy will finally mean something Big Grin

- 2 weapons dealing 100 damage. The crylink being an instagib blaster is really not good. Yes, it's hard to hit with it, but not hard enough to justify this damage output. The slow shooting frequency isn't helping with this considering you can just combo. My suggestion: Don't change the crylink, it's a great tool for movement and catching quick runners. The projectile moves slow enough to make stopping someone challenging.
The devastator is seriously OP with this. I really think it shouldn't deal 100 damage considering that you can guide it. I do like the idea though that you want to encourage people to hit directs rather than splash them all the time, cause that is indeed overused. My suggestion: Leave direct damage at 80, make it consume 4 ammo, but make the splash weaker, especially the splash radius really was large enough already. Alternatively, try 90 damage with 6 ammo consumption (which means a fresh spawner couldn't blaster anymore with this self-damage), but leave the splash radius as it was.

- Vortex nerf to 60 is too much. Make it 70 and bring back the old reload time. Faster reload time won't matter much with comboing. But yeah, the recharge had to go lol.

- I am still not convinced that 2 different jumpheights are a good idea. It feels too much like complexity for complexity's sake. If you don't want people to abuse crouchjumping, I would rather suggest less acceleration with crouchjumping and more with regular jumping. And against overjumping platforms, well there is this cool thing called aircontrol.



Things I am neutral about:

- Health regen was fine imo. Removing it will make control even tighter of course, and that probably should be rewarded if you are being a good pacman. On the other hand, I liked the fairly slow regen cause I think surviving for a longer time against a fast, well-equipped opponent is an achievement in itself. Maybe a regen that is slower than default could be a compromise.
Health rot is now the same as in Quake. I kinda liked the fast rot because it really forced to get your ass moving, but I didn't like that it wasn't linear. My suggestion: Make it rot at 2hp/second.

- Less vortex push is probably ok, although I don't see what was wrong with having a nice push. It makes the hits feel really satisfying.



Things that I think are good or great:

- Synced weapon switch delay is a good thing, although I personally never had a feeling of inconsistency with it. Weapons switch is overall faster now, which I think will be cool.

- More self-damage is a good thing too. It will probably lead to Jonestown level mass suicide until people get used to it, but it does make people think before they shoot in close combat. Wink

- Random respawn? Good stuff 
- Instant respawn? THANK YOU

Overall, would I rather play with this than with the current default? Absolutely!
Well, it looks like my personal pros and cons are somewhat equal, but I can't stress enough why fixing the spawnsystem was so overdue:
1. Less spawnkilling (or at least needing more skill to do it)
2. Additional tactical component: Sometimes you wanna leave an opponent alive so he can't spawn near or on a mega item. Case and point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eygsWUVvQlc
Stuff like this is gonna happen a lot if you don't pay attention Big Grin
3. Less downtime, especially for new players who wanna git gud. If you are a newbie getting rekt 30:0 (or 30:x for that matter), that would be 1 of 10 minutes wasted due to respawn time. Not very efficient training.
4. Check 1.

Makes me wonder though if this game needed any big changes besides that...

IMHO instead of messing with the weapon balance, you should rather mess with physics. Bring us CIX 2.0!
Your explanations and intentions all make sense to me (although I probably consider most of them not too much of a problem in the game), except I would disagree that vortex is overused. If any weapon, that would be the devastator (which is why I think its buff is not so good).


Peace,
Taleb
LoverTaleb
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#12
I played a few duels with vodka, and it's obvious that devastator is out of balance, a player which spawns near devastator gets commanding advantage over a player who spawns near vortex or mortar. And when I had both devastator and mortar I noticed that I never wanted to switch to mortar, because it felt underpowered compared to devastator. In the original balance they felt equal.
Crylink changes not worth it... The projectile is too slow and unguided, I don't see a reason to use it especially having a devastator like yours.
On the other hand I really enjoyed faster switching. A successful xon combo feels better than orgasm, and with your balance it's even more enjoyable.
Vortex 60 is ok, but prly it should be bit higher, 65-70. No recharge is cool.
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#13
Also I don't share the excitement about random spawns. If you spawn near a player with devastator you're dead, he doesn't even need to combo. Very nice.
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#14
I tried the glorious vodka ruleset, and didn't give it much thought about the balance issues, and just accepted it and went along with it. Even though I do agree with Taleb about most things he said (btw great reply there Taleb), I must confess that I did have a LOT of fun just playing, doing the fast switching which i loved. This ruleset is basically very irresponsibly fun. That is the best way I can put it. Its like drinking vodka at work or doing naughty things in public. I am not saying its right or good, but its fun. So there you go. I'd keep playing that anyday. I would even go further to support this for some tourney, if the people would get on the same boat about this situation.
[Image: 9830.png]
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#15
I played a few CA games with the vodka balance.

I liked the fast weapon switch and the Vortex + MG changes. However, I think the Devastator primary and Crylink secondary are OP.
I understand that you want to reward direct hits, but it's possible to kill a player who just spawned with only one hit, it seems excessive. Maybe lowering direct hit damage to 90/95 would be better?
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#16
(12-15-2017, 01:16 PM)SpiKe Wrote: Crylink secondary are OP. I understand that you want to reward direct hits, but it's possible to kill a player who just spawned with only one hit, it seems excessive.
It's the other way around. I wanted a weapon that can spawn kill someone in one hit, while at the same time I don't want it to be easy, if that makes sense. Rocket is agreeably kind of bad for this because you can guide it, so I'd be fine with nerfing it instead.

Quote:I played a few CA games with the vodka balance.
How did the Electro feel? Too weak/strong/hard?
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#17
(12-17-2017, 08:50 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:
Quote:I played a few CA games with the vodka balance.
How did the Electro feel? Too weak/strong/hard?

I think it felt a bit weaker than usual, but I didn't use it that much. Needs more play-testing Smile
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#18
Hi, just passing by Smile
The balance here is funny, new stuff, and offers different gameplay than usual.
Meanwhile, I don't know what's final goal but I permit myself to say that it shouldn't by the default balance for xonotic (in case of experimented player get use to it, what is normal), the "original" balance is cool to learn how works the game, lower gameplay, faster to take in hand as you have time to react, see how you can play. I feel vodka like an insta vanilla.
It will stay optional stuff?
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#19
I think electro is great as you tweaked it. It is harder to use, but since a single shot ball is pretty strong now, it's still pretty brutal if you hit the combo, it's just more difficult to hit. Also it's pretty good on close combat from my testing experience. Still think MG is a bit stronk. Did you change the rocket splash radius back? It still feels really large.
Anyway, I feel this is going somewhere good.
LoverTaleb
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#20
Updated post with v2 changes
(12-18-2017, 08:03 AM)Storm Wrote: Hi, just passing by Smile
The balance here is funny, new stuff, and offers different gameplay than usual.
Meanwhile, I don't know what's final goal but I permit myself to say that it shouldn't by the default balance for xonotic (in case of experimented player get use to it, what is normal), the "original" balance is cool to learn how works the game, lower gameplay, faster to take in hand as you have time to react, see how you can play. I feel vodka like an insta vanilla.
It will stay optional stuff?
The vanilla currently is incomplete, there will probably be changes to it anyway in the future. This ruleset is just experimenting new/old things to see how different things affect the balance. I'm in no power to force this to be the new vanilla, but if players/devs like some changes then it's up to them to decide.
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#21
Version 3 is out and changes are listed in op. The ruleset is also now available on HUB servers (cheers Mario) and if you like, you can also try my experimental movement physics called "CIX" in there as well. The changes are available with the vote commands below:
  • vcall vodka
  • vcall phys_cix
On HUB servers, hagar and machinegun spawns are replaced with Arc when you load vodka ruleset and restart the map.
Lastly but not least, here's a dueling video featuring Dodger and myself (sound mods aren't part of the ruleset):
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#22
Another video vs Mazu the marvelous:
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