balance thread #247

Here is a thread fork from the thread:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...5#pid18585
I wanted to keep the mother thread free of balance stuffs.

people are loving ... that every weapon can beat another

Trying to be as much open-minded as possible, I just cannot find any sense in this.
If "technical" weapons (e.g. nex) are not more rewarded than "easy" weapons (e.g. crylink, MG), then you will sentence to death all technical weapons.

nexgun is also easy weapon, just point at enemy and click, no need to take anything else into account

What WAS the point in starting up a thread over this, seriously..Just go play the sodding game!

Please don't take my comments out of context, you are able to kill with other weapons in the right situatins is what I meant.

"Isn't the point of a weapon balance that every weapon has it's good use and can beat another weapon when used correctly/in the correct situation"

This is basically what i meant, fruitiex summed it up.

Can someone just lock this before it get's out of hand?

oh hai i turned your thread into balance thread.
you mad, bro?

*inserts the key into the roflcopter and turns it*

What WAS the point in starting up a thread over this, seriously..Just go play the sodding game!

Please don't take my comments out of context, you are able to kill with other weapons in the right situatins is what I meant.

"Isn't the point of a weapon balance that every weapon has it's good use and can beat another weapon when used correctly/in the correct situation"

This is basically what i meant, fruitiex summed it up.

Can someone just lock this before it get's out of hand?

@Kojn: you got me wrong. I created this thread precisely to not pollute the thread
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...5#pid18585
wherein your quote was extracted from.
Maybe I should have made some few words of introduction to state it more clearly. Sorry for that.


Regarding the definition given by FruitieX, ok I'm agree with this.
But, still, my concern remains:
I define a weapon as "easy" when you have an high hit probability using it (so, no Morphed, nexgun is not that easy...). MG, Crylink, HLAC, electro primary are "easy". And these weapons are generally not very fun and/or interesting to play with (I didn't say useless). I admit that this could only be my personal tastes.
But maybe not...

And, so far, from what I felt from few minutes of playing, I saw many frags done by these "easy" weapons. And I'm just a bit afraid of that.

I think this is bit of a waste of time, it's all like theory talk and no practice, you already played the game man and you can see how it plays, my last post here.

Some people are always going to be better with some guns then other's, this is player skill, as long as the other weapon's are useful against each other this is what matters. All this oh but you just have to point and click with the Xon/nex, oh but electro is easy to use is all just complete stupidness.

Any weapon is easy to use if you spend time with it, some may be easier to get the hand off then other's, but at the end of the day equal skill vs equal skill player you will see a weapon being used at it's best whether you class it as easy or hard.

FEATURE REQUEST #246:

Forkable forum threads (like Git), so that we can have just a *little* more thread redundancy. It's like RAID for forums XD

(This is particularly useful for when people like me want to hijack a thread)

Also merging and lightweight branches would be handy Perhaps even diffs so people can skim threads without reading things that have been written elsewhere.

I define a weapon as "easy" when you have an high hit probability using it (so, no Morphed, nexgun is not that easy...). MG, Crylink, HLAC, electro primary are "easy". And these weapons are generally not very fun and/or interesting to play with (I didn't say useless). I admit that this could only be my personal tastes.
But maybe not...

Maybe easy to hit one of the 10 spammed projectiles, but how much damage will that deal? I'm more concerned about the high damage, low rate of fire weapons. (especially the Rifle)

---

As you can see from weapon stats collected so far, only the electro really sticks out as a good "easy" weapon to kill with (kills.log). The others are rather at the bottom.

Code:

kills.log:

For server any map any:
  Camping Rifle                   0.34158 |   .     0.000 -0.091 +0.205 +0.233 +0.556 -0.143 +0.188 +0.600 +0.579 +0.778 +0.556 +0.892
  Electro                         0.20169 |  0.000   .    +0.237 +0.118 +0.156 +0.168 -1.000 +0.149 +0.077 +0.462 +0.500 +0.471 +0.771
  Crylink                         0.18569 | +0.091 -0.237   .    -0.084 -0.054 +0.011 +0.778 +0.016 +0.233 +0.636 +0.333 +0.370 +0.850
  Nex                             0.15929 | -0.205 -0.118 +0.084   .    +0.003 +0.006 +0.189 +0.022 +0.090 +0.348 +0.478 +0.435 +0.787
  Rocket Launcher                 0.15860 | -0.233 -0.156 +0.054 -0.003   .    +0.152 +0.283 +0.133 +0.193 +0.179 +0.333 +0.465 +0.660
  Hagar                           0.10069 | -0.556 -0.168 -0.011 -0.006 -0.152   .    +0.077 +0.006 +0.257  0.000 +1.000 +0.571 +0.538
  Mine Layer                      0.07723 | +0.143 +1.000 -0.778 -0.189 -0.283 -0.077   .    +0.067 +0.500 +1.000 +0.333 +0.250  0.000
  Mortar                          0.06400 | -0.188 -0.149 -0.016 -0.022 -0.133 -0.006 -0.067   .    +0.041 +0.111 +0.143 +0.343 +0.696
  Uzi                            -0.06424 | -0.600 -0.077 -0.233 -0.090 -0.193 -0.257 -0.500 -0.041   .    -0.524   .    +0.368 +0.702
  Heavy Laser Assault Cannon     -0.07109 | -0.579 -0.462 -0.636 -0.348 -0.179  0.000 -1.000 -0.111 +0.524   .    -0.333 +0.333 +0.833
  Seeker                         -0.26533 | -0.778 -0.500 -0.333 -0.478 -0.333 -1.000 -0.333 -0.143   .    +0.333   .    -0.333 +1.000
  Shotgun                        -0.28409 | -0.556 -0.471 -0.370 -0.435 -0.465 -0.571 -0.250 -0.343 -0.368 -0.333 +0.333   .    +0.415
  Laser                          -0.60403 | -0.892 -0.771 -0.850 -0.787 -0.660 -0.538  0.000 -0.696 -0.702 -0.833 -1.000 -0.415   .  
  Relevance: 0

Everything (with the exception of Rifle and Fireball) is rather well balanced out in damage.log, though.

Code:

damage.log:

For server any map any:
  Fireball                        0.67250 |   .      .      .      .      .      .    +1.000   .      .      .      .    +0.806 +1.000 +1.000
  Camping Rifle                   0.18807 |   .      .    +0.036 +0.085 -0.089 -0.149 +0.102 +0.307 +0.401 +0.308 +0.448 +0.357 +0.495 +0.817
  Rocket Launcher                 0.10066 |   .    -0.036   .    +0.066 +0.059 +0.030 +0.092 +0.119 +0.041 +0.140 +0.143 +0.308 +0.386 +0.633
  Nex                             0.07948 |   .    -0.085 -0.066   .    +0.020 -0.002 +0.056 +0.005 +0.066 +0.090 +0.065 +0.524 +0.358 +0.674
  Electro                         0.07855 |   .    +0.089 -0.059 -0.020   .    -0.124 -0.024 +0.039 +0.024 +0.156 +0.035 +0.604 +0.304 +0.672
  Mine Layer                      0.07171 |   .    +0.149 -0.030 +0.002 +0.124   .    +0.144 -0.056 -0.018 +0.472 -0.023 +0.048 +0.251 +0.541
  Mortar                          0.00952 | -1.000 -0.102 -0.092 -0.056 +0.024 -0.144   .    +0.024 +0.002 +0.070 +0.064 +0.379 +0.306 +0.570
  Hagar                          -0.00463 |   .    -0.307 -0.119 -0.005 -0.039 +0.056 -0.024   .    -0.017 -0.091 +0.163 +0.012 +0.369 +0.611
  Crylink                        -0.01780 |   .    -0.401 -0.041 -0.066 -0.024 +0.018 -0.002 +0.017   .    -0.035 +0.187 -0.120 +0.297 +0.606
  Heavy Laser Assault Cannon     -0.04267 |   .    -0.308 -0.140 -0.090 -0.156 -0.472 -0.070 +0.091 +0.035   .    +0.254 +0.065 +0.363 +0.543
  Uzi                            -0.06178 |   .    -0.448 -0.143 -0.065 -0.035 +0.023 -0.064 -0.163 -0.187 -0.254   .    +0.416 +0.255 +0.560
  Seeker                         -0.20315 | -0.806 -0.357 -0.308 -0.524 -0.604 -0.048 -0.379 -0.012 +0.120 -0.065 -0.416   .    +0.096 +0.460
  Shotgun                        -0.29368 | -1.000 -0.495 -0.386 -0.358 -0.304 -0.251 -0.306 -0.369 -0.297 -0.363 -0.255 -0.096   .    +0.349
  Laser                          -0.57678 | -1.000 -0.817 -0.633 -0.674 -0.672 -0.541 -0.570 -0.611 -0.606 -0.543 -0.560 -0.460 -0.349   .  
  Relevance: 0