[SUGGESTION] Let's talk weapons!

An idea similar to the Flak out of UT is beeing discussed here(merge?): http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=46

I personally would love to see such a weapon in Xon. But there are still some ideas that aren't mentioned yet. (I know my laser guided chainsaw rockets will never be a playable weapon.)

Another UT weapon with great potential was the "Shock rifle", Nexuiz™ ponton the Electro was never as much fun to use as the Shock. While I like the idea of creating an explosion in the distance with the Shock, it does not create too much diversity to a RL. The Electro however made it possible to lay traps on the ground, wich is a highly tactical feature.
Both the combos cann be triggered via the primary fire of the gun. While the Shocks primiary was very usefull (but too similar to the rifle), the Electro's one was never my favourite.
So a gun is needed that offers the possibility to trap certain parts of the map, with a usefull primary trigger.
What could such a trigger be like?
I would recomment something like Quakes Lightning Gun.
Such a weapon could offer a tactical, short and long range abilities to the player.

The Nexuiz™ Laser is a force weapon. It punches where you aim. It lacks a function, that is usefull at short range ( if you laz0r someone in fron of you you will be pushed aswell, wich is bad imho). Since the secondary fire is still avainable for this weapon, how about a short range knife like melee thingie to offer us the stabbing pirate feeling we all need once a day.

To the explosives in Nexuiz. One type of ammo, three weapons. The not so classic "Rocket Launcher", the "Grenade Launcher" and the "Hagar".
Rocket Launcher: Remote explosions seemed neat at first, but a rocket on the corner or the floor offers an equal effect, without a secondary fire.
The rockets were too slow for me, i liked the Quake 3 attempt on the RL much more than the Nexuiz™ one. Fast rockets to even hit someone in midair.
Grenade Launcher: Its a combo weapon, like the Electro. In fact it has so many similarities to the Electro that one should leave the game and make room for something new. The grenades are faster than the rocket(midair's) and the secondary is like the Electros secondary, but .. blue.
If my thoughts about the Electro and Rocket Launcher grow fruits, the Grenade Launcher would be the one to leave.
The midair explosion capability would go to the Rocket Launcher, the combo's can aswell be achieved by the Electro.
Hagar: If you enable cheats and type in "god", it's a lot of fun to hover around and do some walks on the wall. Besides that, i never found a real use for it. Did you?

Ripper: UT's Ripper? Remeber? Or should i say "dismember"? Shoot around corners, instant kills and explosions with force. It has it all! If it wouldn't hurt that bad, i would kiss it!

The Crylink is just another shotgun, but better. Its secondary fire offered a spreadshot with at least some accuracy! Thats just nice! So it could be a nice replacement to the normal shotgun (i know how many people hate me for that), but thats a problem i always had with Nexuiz™ some weaons are almost the same and none was really fresh!

Laser guided chainsaw rockets?

edit: Weapons mid screen? I always used it in my UT days. Offers a better angle. But thats a very personal thing.

If you remove the mortar, you will make a lot of sick people (like me) very unhappy. It's a valuable weapon that is not matched in functionality or versatility by any other weapon.
A fast rocket would unbalance the game, I think. The secondary fire is useful. Picture this: Opponent in midair, you have a rocket on the way. However, rocket will not hit. When rocket is under the opponent, detonate it and collect frag.

But isn't the Grenade Launchers primary, like a faster rocket with more gravitational boundaries?
And isn't the Grenade Launchers secondary, like a faster "electro glob" with a sound effect?

Its not about whether you learned to love a Nexuiz™ weapon. It's about the fact that some functions are simply ugly twins of others.

Each weapon should be unique and usefull close, mid and the far!

I don't want anyone to loose his favourite weapons, i want to combine their strenghts to a new weapon.

The functionality you mentioned results out of the projectiles speed.(Correct?) If you port the speed to the rocket it would gain all its functionality, but loose the gravitational pull to it(wich needed a little more skill to master).

To try to hit someone with a Nexuiz™ rocket in midair is usually a bad idea, its too slow, the remote function simply tries to make that flaw up. On huge maps, the rockets are a game of chance, maybe a firework, nothing more.

But isn't the Grenade Launchers primary, like a faster rocket with more gravitational boundaries?
And isn't the Grenade Launchers secondary, like the a faster "electro glob"?

Only in a way.. the electro secondary is WAY less jumpy and has a short range. Thus it basicly is only useful to lay a trap or in general prepare the combo and also to keep the enemy from passing a narrow way. A direct hit with secondary is possible but at this close range i'd prefer other possibilities.

The mortar secondary is the exact opposite. It can't be used to lay a trap because its jumpy, its more for spamming around a corner, getting hits by chance. Also as the mortar can cover quite a area and bounces a lot it has an increased chance to hit something in a close quarter.

Think about the usage of both guns on aggressor to see how different they really are. The distance and "stuckiness" of the blob vs grenade make them very different.

I'd argue that the primary functions are more similar but well..

I think we should use different sets of weapons depending on the game mode or modifier. A weapon that is balanced for DM may be to powerful in CTF and viceversa.

For exapmle
On DM we keep the Grenade Launcher, But on CTF / Jetpack we could replace it with a JP homing seeker.

We could also create a create different weapon set to create a tactical version of CTF
"CTF Tactical " could have Mine layers , health guns and so on.

Just a thought

Only in a way.. the electro secondary is WAY less jumpy and has a short range..The mortar secondary is the exact opposite.

Exact opposite? They are both timed explosive, devices that are bound by gravity, one is .. just a bit slower!
BTW: If you shoot a grenade at the correct angle, it can stay in place, but not possible in every situation(ceiling is needed).

Since this game should have a rock/paper/scissors balance on weapons, I thought I'd break down their functions and role.

Blaster (Laser): Mostly used in movement, last resort weapons

Tactical Shotgun (Shotgun): Starter weapon, useful in most situations, but NEVER the best weapon to use

Heavy Streetsweeper (Super Shotgun, based off an idea by C Brutail): Flak Cannon primary/Skedar Reaper. Devastating at close range, but useless in just about in any other situation. Holding the secondary will proceed to unload the weapon at an alarming rate, making it useful for breaking out of crowds. The longer the secondary is held, the more screwed up the accuracy. A single secondary shot does less damage than a primary shot.

Machine Gun: General purpose fully automatic weapon. Can do significant damage if most shots are landed. Secondary fires gun at a slow fire rate, but fires accurately.

Camping Rifle: The harder to use, yet more rewarding of the far range weapons. It can punch through some objects and do a lot of damage if a shot is connected with somebody's head. Secondary is a panic-fire mode that will unload the magazine quickly if held.

Mortar: Lee_Stricklin's personal favorite. A fun to use nade launcher. Primary fires a grenade that explodes on impact while the secondary will bounce them around a bit. Good for juggling opponents and knocking people around.

Hagar: An often overestimated spam weapon. It's best use is knocking someone into a wall or corner.

Electro: An extremely good weapon for clearing hall ways and running away.

Crylink: A good splash weapon. It's extremely useful around corners and for getting opponents trying to hide.

HLAC: General purpose spam weapon.

Rocket Launcher: This needs no introduction. Can be guided by holding primary and detonated with secondary.

Rail Gun (Nex): The more dominant of the long range weapons. This one is a hit scan weapon with a low fire rate but capable of doing great damage.

I had some random ideas about guns while trying to sleep yesterday:
Minelayer
Type: normal
Will do fire damage to the player who crosses its laser. The laser must be almost invisible.
primary fire: Lay a mine with horizontal laser
secondary fire: Lay a mine with vertical laser

Classic Sniper
Just the weapon everyone loves.
Laser Sniper
A futuristic version that uses energy (similar to the Nexuiz version).

Custom melee weapon for each player, race or class
Type: normal
Swords, daggers, claws, etc...

Vampire Gun
Type: ???
Will suck the target's health or heal a friend (will drain your health).

Chain Lightning Gun
Type: special
Will deal a huge ammount of damage to the target, but will also hit other enemies and friends after the first one. You have only one shot, and must hit at least one target to start the chain effect.
Example:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2415/examplea.jpg

Surveillance satellite
Type: special
Available only in CTF maps with large open areas. It will give you the enemy exact position. Will work during a minute or until it is taken down by enemy forces.

Sorry for my bad english.

Well, melee weapons are a requirement!
We need at least one chainsaw!

What about a flamethrower-like weapon that does short-range damage in a cone-sized area in front of the player.

Exact opposite? They are both timed explosive, devices that are bound by gravity, one is .. just a bit slower!
BTW: If you shoot a grenade at the correct angle, it can stay in place, but not possible in every situation(ceiling is needed).

in terms of usage... One is a short range blocking blob.. The other is a spaming grenade. Talking bout secondaries

I agree with esteel. The electro and the mortar are not interchangeable. The mortar secondary cannot be used as a mine field, due to the jumpyness. Electro balls are less jumpy. They stay near the desired position, and can be set off easily. The mortar is not like an RL. An RL is slower, less maneuverable, while a mortar is quicker, but not as ranged.

Chris: You have two sniper weapons which duplicate the Nex. We don't need so many accurate hitscan weapons.

It was just a sugestion.
A normal sniper behaves differently from a laser or energy sniper in games that have both of them. In UT 2004 some maps had the normal one, and other maps had the energy one. In UT 2004 the normal one always seemed to do a little more damage, but was a bit harder to hit the enemy.
Different styles of maps could use different sets of guns.

more dynamic weapon lay out would be nice. plus I would like to feel that each weapon had a role that it was designed not just to fill a hole. its like the shotgun in nexuiz for some time would be thrown as soon as you spawn because some one thought it was to powerful and was muted, leaving the player wanting to find something fast. a machine-gun that is easy to use but hard to master would be better as the default spawn weapon. the shotgun could be more like a flak/blunderbuss giving masses of damage over sort range and quite a lot of push, but the affect would not be affective at any range greater than say 50 meter.

Well, i read all this and have to say, I made a mistake. Everyone will throw in random ideas or argue about similarities and situation based abilities, this will lead to anger and these mix breeds that i don't like to use.

So lets try to start from scratch and create a base for all that talk that is about to come!

What does a fast paced, futuristic shooter need?
- Something to enhance the movent speed?
- Something to lay traps?
- Easy to handle weapon for the newbies?
- Something that creates splash damage on distance?
- Something highly accurate with zoom?
- More than ten weapons?
- Something to spam? (Not the chatfunction!)
- Something to teleport?
- Something homing randomly?
- Something with a combo?
- Something to play with gravity?
- Something to penetrate through walls?
- Secondary fire?
- Damaging aura?
- Something midrange, hitscan and a steady damage output?
- Something remotly explosive?
- Something with a small possibility to instantly kill?
- Melee weapon?
- BFG?
- Laser guided chainsaw rockets?

But, once the rules are set, there should be NO compromises, not "but's" and no wet dreams of laser guided chainsaw rockets allowed!

I say we keep the core weapons the same, except for maybe crylink, shotgun,and hagar with some little tweaks. I never really liked the additions to the core weapons, like the hlac or rifle. Xonotic really doesn't need changes in its game play because its trying to carry on the greatness of nexuiz.

Perhaps 8 weapons and 4 tools? I also like the idea of loadouts, so perhaps everybody gets four weapons and two tools and can change them around at will, including melee weapons.
Format - Damage, Reload Speed(Low is slow), Fire Speed(High is fast), Accuracy, Range, any effects

Weapons (Primary and secondary functions)
Pistol - Low, Med, Med, Low, Low, can stun target. P: Single Shot; S: Double Tap
Shotgun - High, Low; interruptable, Low, Low, Low-Med, knocks target aside. P: Wide shot; S: Narrow shot
SMG - Low, High, High, Low, Med, Damage increases when target is closer. P: Full auto; S: Burst shot
Precision Rifle - High, Low, Low, High, High, Goes through thin materials. P: Shoot; S: Zoom
Assault Rifle - Med-High, Med, Med, Med, Med, 4 headshot kill. P: Full auto; S: Single shot (more acc)
Rocket Launcher - High, Low, Low, Med-High, Med-High, Large Splash. P: Fire; S: Detonate in mid-air
Flamer - High, Low, High(?), Low, Low, It shoots fire. P: Burn the bugger in front of you; S: Launch a ball of firey goodness across the room
Minigun - Low, Low, High, Low, Med, slows target if hit. P: Full auto; S: Double speed, half acc

Melee weapons:
Knife: Med Damage, High Speed, insta-kill from behind
Sapper: High Damage, Low speed, drains health over time
Venom: Low Damage, Med speed, paralyzes target

Tools: (Some explanation: a tool is not a weapon that does damage up front. It instead is laid on the ground and either triggered, or starts acting immediately)
Mine: Put on ground and explodes for high damage when stepped on
Turret: Fires at fast moving enemies that come near it. Has a limited clip, when expended, it detonates
Block: Blocks 10x player health in incoming fire, then dissapates
Gravity Spring: Flings whoever walks over it high in the air

In my opinion we should stick with the current weapons we have from Nexuiz (except the fireball until that's completed), balance them, and maybe tweak something. Right now the ONLY two weapons I can possibly think of that would be of ANY use in this game would a melee weapon that is used off hand to push opponents and a super shotgun just like the one C Brutail thought up of a while ago. As far as tweaks (outside of balancing) to said weapons are concerned, I think that the blaster (laser) should be given a secondary that can knock down projectiles in a similar fashion to the original impact hammer's secondary in UT99. Also one more thing: TRY TO KEEP THESE IDEAS REALISTIC AND KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS MOSTLY BEING BUILT OFF OF NEXUIZ' 2.5 SVN.

flamethrower called PHOENIX???

Xonotic is a new beginning! So why can't we use some new weapons? In the Storymode some new weapons should be included! But I think we can't include that much weapons!

I have brought up before that if the story is going to involve aliens in any way, then these aliens should have their own weapon sets, even if it's only 3 or 4 weapons.

That doesn't make sense at all. The implementation of that would be very difficult and it would also be a balancing nightmare.

But you should can use their weapons

Or we can skip those issues and let everybody use everybody's weapons. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

This game needs a lightning gun.

Or we can skip those issues and let everybody use everybody's weapons. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

That was what I meant