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[SUGGESTION] Weapons function

#1
Are you happy with simply inheriting the gun as is from Nexuiz? Im not to hot on the idea, heres my suggestion. Id love to hear your ideas too!

Baseline is current release Nexuiz (not svn!)

General:
Guns have different armor pierce profiles (rather then current flat-rate)
More ammo types
More self-damage

Laser & Shotgun:
Merge those two by removing the shotty secondary and replacing it with "laser".
SG: good dmg, low AP
laser: low dmg, med AP

Machine gun & Camping rifle:
Merge. primary bullet span, secondary snipe.
Primary: low dmg & ap
Secondary: high dmg & ap. Headshot ignores ar.
Own ammo type

Grenade launcher:
Less radius on primary, slower refire on secondary, longer lifetime on secondary.
Medium dmg & ap
Own ammo type.

Crylink:
No negative force, instead make it take away from target velocity.
Medium dmg, low ap

Electro:
Slower rate of fire on both modes (specially secondary), 150-200% more combo damage.
medium-high(combo) dmg, medium ap

Rocket launcher & Hagar:
Merge or delete hagar. add detonate button instead of hogging rl secondary for it. rocket guidance off by default (make mutator).
High dmg, low ap
Own ammo type.

Nex gun:
Slower primary refire, less force, more damage, more ammo use.
Secondary half damage but double and inverted force.
Medium dmg, high ap

HLAC:
Higher base damage, Higher ROF, damage/force falloff (quite rapid) bu range. Fixed pattern secondary.
Very high dmg, very low ap

Fireball:
Make it look % feel more like a Plasma ball maybe?
Own ammo type.

#2
I think there should be some sort of reload feature for "spam" weapons like the machine gun, hagar and HLAC. E.g. the MG has to reload after 32 shots. This would make the weapons less "spammy" Tongue
[Image: 370.png] AKA [~] John Smith on Nexuiz

#3
It seems like the theme is leading to a more futuristic world so I was thinking about changing the bullets and shells to a more futuristic ammo.
For example: bullets could become lasers(not the weapon).
shells could become ? I haven't thought of a replacement for this.

#4
I oppose reloading, its just a irritating slowdown solution. better to make the gun less spam-effective.

#5
(04-04-2010, 06:03 PM)tZork Wrote: I oppose reloading, its just a irritating slowdown solution. better to make the gun less spam-effective.

Totally agree. Xonotic will be too fast to introduce reloading.

#6
Wow, I am wholeheartedly against changing the mortar. The mortar is one of the few well balanced weapons in the game. You can change other weapons, but for god's sake don't change the mortar. Nobody would like that.

I like your nex solution. It's sound.
Fireball should be deleted and replaced with the TAG seeker.

#7
No reason to delete the fireball to re-implement the tag. theres no reason why both cant exist.

#8
we should also talk about the visual aspect of weapons, in weapon effects and animations. personally, I would like to see some more animations for weapons. running, jumping, firing, cocking, etc.

and by reload, I am not proposing that we implement reloading. because as tZork said, its annoying. (duh) however, we could have it be automatic. like when you fire the shotgun, immediately after, you cock the weapon, and then you can fire again. (same amount of time it would take anyway) this would only be for single shot weapons, like shotgun. rifle, mortar, rocket launcher, and the like.

also, idea for shotgun secondary that coincides with that. for SG secondary, maybe you press and hold the fire button, and the animation shows it cock 3 times, loading a shell in all 3 barrels, and when you release it fires them in quick succession. just an idea
Master of mysterious geometries

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#9
(04-04-2010, 07:48 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Fireball should be deleted and replaced with the TAG seeker.
I miss the Tag seeker, It was fun once you got the hang of it.

Also if weapons have different armor pierce profiles it would be useful
if there was an easy way of telling if the player had armor.

#10
Machine gun & Camping rifle:
I am for reloading. Generally spamming takes place in defensive play holding a position. Reloading add a fun dimension to the game, while also discouraging spam defense for large periods of time.

I'm sure many of you will agree that the implementation of ammo reading built into gun models would be quite cool, much like Q4
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/1963/burpy1aw.jpg

Rocket launcher & Hagar:

Go one step further and add a map or radar onto weapons such as the rocket launcher or nex to add targeting features and help in following the enemy with rockets.

Shotgun:
The idea of shotgun and super-shotgun is good with alternative ammo like this modern shotgun;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR...re=related
although needs a little more thought, but a super-shotgun would act much like this.

Mortar:
As someone I cannot recall suggested the secondary fire for the mortar should be either remote deternation or proximity mines. The Electro already has the mortar secondary fire function!

Nex:
Last of all id like to see the nex to shot through walls, not its less powerful counterpart the camping rifle, while making the nex less readily available due to its devastation.
There's nothing better than getting off you butt and contributing to a community. There is no excuse when it comes to computers. Spend a little of you playing time, giving back Smile

#11
(04-04-2010, 05:25 PM)tZork Wrote: General:
Guns have different armor pierce profiles (rather then current flat-rate)
More ammo types
More self-damage

Yes! High velocity weapons pierce armor better, but damages it less. Shotgun is heavily blocked by armor, but chips away at it more. Electro shocks you, so armor is less involved. Crylink, as a defensive weapon (see below) does less damage but does eat away at armor.

Quote:Laser & Shotgun:
Merge those two by removing the shotty secondary and replacing it with "laser".
SG: good dmg, low AP
laser: low dmg, med AP

You'll get a lot of objections to changing laser. The right click is quite handy after a quick laser jump. Or the laser could get a secondary function (melee stun gun?)

Shotgun - Give it the camping rifle function. Eight shot magazine. Left click is aimed fire. Right click rapid fires until magazine empty.

Quote:Machine gun & Camping rifle:
Merge. primary bullet span, secondary snipe.
Primary: low dmg & ap
Secondary: high dmg & ap. Headshot ignores ar.
Own ammo type

Yes, good way to get rid of excess bullet weapons. I was thinking to have rifle function let you squeeze off 3 rounds per second. Lessen the damage some to compensate. Increase recoil so you can't get accurate shots that fast. Possible problem- recoil compensation scripts. No more reloading.

Yoda has a model that appears to have over/under barrels that could be good for this.

Quote:Grenade launcher:
Less radius on primary, slower refire on secondary, longer lifetime on secondary.
Medium dmg & ap
Own ammo type.

Primary feels pretty good as is, but secondary feels a bit useless sometimes. We've discussed having it be a sticky mine with proximity fuse.

Quote:Crylink:
No negative force, instead make it take away from target velocity.
Medium dmg, low ap

Great idea, I suggested it on irc Smile as a solution to Kojn's critique of rocket and laser flyers, but it'll need a much higher projectile speed, and more projectiles Have it add some negative vertical velocity to players in air, bringing them towards ground. One person claimed it originally did that and was not liked.

Quote:Electro:
Slower rate of fire on both modes (specially secondary), 150-200% more combo damage.
medium-high(combo) dmg, medium ap

Why? Don't slow the game down! Bring back the ability to ignite secondary with primary in mid-air (electro ball proximity detection)

Quote:Rocket launcher & Hagar:
Merge or delete hagar. add detonate button instead of hogging rl secondary for it. rocket guidance off by default (make mutator).
High dmg, low ap
Own ammo type.

bindable rocket detonate cmd would be nice. hagar I increase projectile velocity on so it is not so useless. make it more ap on direct hits. like rpg. slow down refire a small amount. I like guidance Sad How can a 24th century rocket not have guidance when we already have it in the 21st century? This is supposed to be high-tech weaponry!

Quote:Nex gun:
Slower primary refire, less force, more damage, more ammo use.
Secondary half damage but double and inverted force.
Medium dmg, high ap

slowing the game down again! >: I was already annoyed by the change from 1.4 to 1.5 secs and changed it back on my server. Drastically lower the force. High velocity low mass (zero mass?) projectiles have very little kick.

Quote:HLAC:
Higher base damage, Higher ROF, damage/force falloff (quite rapid) bu range. Fixed pattern secondary.
Very high dmg, very low ap

Increase force by 75%. Cut damage by 1/3. That way it becomes a defensive weapon to disorient and throw off course (or off map) an attacking player. It *is* a laser weapon after all, so it should throw people around like laser pistol does. Doing this also cuts damage greatly because less shots hit as they are bounced away from your aim point.

Quote:Fireball:
Make it look % feel more like a Plasma ball maybe?
Own ammo type.

sure why not? Big Grin

#12
The timed mines were my idea, I think they're in the old tracker somewhere.\
Cuinnington, I like your ideas. However, shotgun shouldn't be beefed up any more.
For the HLAC, it was suggested to make it a weapon with high push but little damage, to throw people off the map or slow them down (I believe nawkz suggested this).
If reload won't be implemented, then refire should be longer. This would also encourage combos.
RL guidance should be on by default.
How does the nex work? Antimatter? Rail gun?
The fireball is a dubious weapon. I know it's unique, but it's a bit "cheap".

#13
I like guidance too, i just feel it makes the rl way to strong. And nerfing its dmg is sorta boring.

I dont think slowing the nex down a bit will impact game speed. weapon combos!

HLAC's no damn push around gun! (at least thats not what i designed it for). Seriously tough.. like half the guns already toss targets around like mad. Do we really need moar?

Reason for electro ROF slowdown is: a) less spam, but more importantly b) focus it more on the really cool and useful electro combo.

#14
The fireball is supposed to be a bit like the BFG from Q2 I think. I agree its a bit cheap though.

I'd like prox mines ideally if they are to be timed or whatever. Mostly the mortar is fine as it is.

I don't want the laser to be touched but I think adding a real secondary would be a nice change. Even a charge up mode would be neat.

Need to make sure for MG and CR there is definately recoil so people can't just spray their 999 bullets endlessly. Also as the MG is in 2.5.2 it feels like a bloody pea shooter.

Rocket launcher changes sound fine I think. The hagar has always felt like a bit of an orphan weapon tbh.

I feel rather than reloading an overheat system might be a bit better. Mass Effect 2 has the idea that instead of reloading a weapon you need to replace the barrel as it wears down quickly due to high energy repeated firing. Might be suitable for some weapons, but not all.

#15
For the record its pronounced Quinton Smile Like the director Quentin Tarantino Tongue
yes I would love to see your timed mines idea

If the nex becomes a low mass projectile weapon it will no longer be a kinetic energy weapon, aka Rail Gun/Mass Driver. Or even a Gaussian gun which still uses a projectile with relatively large masses.

For low mass high energy weapons you would be shooting elementary or subatomic particles? aka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon or Raygun.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/...nflash.gif
the only mass-less particles are Photons Gluons and Gravatrons. So where left with a laser rifle, or a strong force weapon which I cannot comprehend will do? Maybe this is the idea, which doesn't seem very nex like to me. For the record its pronounced Quinton Smile
There's nothing better than getting off you butt and contributing to a community. There is no excuse when it comes to computers. Spend a little of you playing time, giving back Smile

#16
(04-04-2010, 09:48 PM)tZork Wrote: I like guidance too, i just feel it makes the rl way to strong. And nerfing its dmg is sorta boring.

On the other hand, time spent guiding is time spent not switching and firing another weapon. It does give a very high powered finishing off capability though, as opponent tries to escape around corner.

Quote:HLAC's no damn push around gun! (at least thats not what i designed it for). Seriously tough.. like half the guns already toss targets around like mad. Do we really need moar?

What gap were you trying to fill with HLAC? Why not adjust crylink instead? I didn't like the recent changes to crylink. I thought it was supposed to be for defensive spamming and harassing or finishing off around corners.

HLAC should only become a pushing weapon if some force is taken out of other weapons, especially nex. Nex is already a killer. It is doubly dangerous in that it also throws you off map. Frequent comments are that shotgun has a bit too much force.

I don't want to disrespect your weapon. I just don't know its raison d'etre.

Quote:Reason for electro ROF slowdown is: a) less spam, but more importantly b) focus it more on the really cool and useful electro combo.

Maybe the secondary slowdown is reasonable. 2.6 changes it to a triple burst. I didn't like it, but I'm a lectrospammer :o maybe a double burst would be even better for spam control, if the power went up.

I like all the insight everyone has here so far. Good discussion.

#17
(04-04-2010, 10:38 PM)nox Wrote: Nex is already a killer. It is doubly dangerous in that it also throws you off map.

Nex is intended as a high-damage sniper rifle. This is why it has built-in zoom. I am wholeheartedly opposed to damage falloff with distance, but push falloff would be reasonable and logical due to air resistance, etc.

#18
I would also love to see an official alternative balance, that would focus less on spamming, and more on strategy. I'm not saying it should be a slower paced balance, possibly even the opposite. Simply entirely disabling the secondary fire modes on each weapon would bring in more strategy, as your possibilities as what you can do with a weapon is effectively cut in half, so you have to think more carefully about which weapon is the right tool for the current situation.

Also I don't like having weapons that are both effective in close combat and in long-range combat, see the Nexuiz uzi (primary/secondary). The primary was also too strong, which could be fixed by making it weaker, and then also the weapon you start with (it then feels perfectly right to have it that weak, you should find another better weapon asap!) Now the shotgun becomes a pickup, which you can give the power of an actual shotgun (more bullets, more refire, more damage). Add in a couple more changes and hey presto, you got Nexrun :-)

As the health system is capped to 200/200, gameplay also automatically gets faster. The fight over powerups gets more important, and running around the map for too long gathering small health/armor packs gets useless. You don't need to worry about your enemy being stacked up to 400/250 anymore (original stormkeep, heh heh.)

Another important thing (at least in the alternative balance) is to make it harder to completely control a map. It should be easier to break ones control, and the game should never turn into a spam fest with only the starting weapon for anyone. That's why weapon respawn times could be decreased as low as even 5 seconds for non-team gamemodes.

No two weapons/(weapon fire modes) should be alike in function, but in Nexuiz many were. If you give it some thought, Laser - Mortar primary - Electro primary - Crylink primary - Hagar - Rocketlauncher all function very much alike, with only varying projectile speeds, radiuses and damages. Especially Electro primary - RL, Electro secondary - Mortar secondary and Hagar secondary - Crylink primary are very much alike. My suggestions are:
- Laser: Gauntlet
- Mortar: Only a grenadelauncher
- Electro: Lightningun
- Crylink: More radius, maybe slower speed... Basically a rapid fire RL, yeah that's needed too :-P
- Hagar: Even faster refire, no bouncing around corners (crylink does this!)
- Rocketlauncher: This is perhaps the most extreme... Disable both guidance and remote detonation to balance it with the others. Add some speed.

Just some suggestions, that all pretty much make up what Nexrun currently is. I hope these will at least become an alternative, maybe official. Possibly named "Xonotic Pro Mod(e)" due to all the similarities to CPM (Challenge Promode, a Q3 mod). Especially if the mod gets a seal of approval from the "Pro" players in our community. :-D
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#19
Nice ideas. But these will change a lot of "funktions" in maps...
Maybe a way for change the weapons a bit like in 2.4.2? Tongue

#20
After reading through this forum, I have seen some things that I liked, and other things I did not like.

I really would not recommend merging weapons together, because that makes thing more available....you know, less things to pick up. I like the idea of a health and armor limit, something like 200/200 or even 250/250. I also believe that adding different ammo for the weapons is a good idea, as it does encourage map movement, which brings me to my next point.

All of these changes will, obviously, change the gameplay. I know change is inevitable. However, are you willing to make so many changes that the gameplay itself is completely different to what nexuiz used to be? Some of the suggestions make it feel like that.

Which also reminds me.....are you going to try to make these settings suited to all current, and future game modes (certain game modes do not apply, you know which modes I'm talking about! Tongue)? Although I wouldn't mind seeing a little variation to game modes like ctf and duel, I think that there should be a standard for gamemode, that server admins could follow.

I am working on some ideas for weapon changes, but I'm not ready to post them yet. I thought I would just share where I stand on this instead of waiting until I have my weapon changes thought out and typed....

#21
(04-05-2010, 08:03 AM)PCLizard Wrote: I really would not recommend merging weapons together, because that makes thing more available....you know, less things to pick up.
My reasoning behind merge is making room for new stuff and removing redundancy.

(04-05-2010, 08:03 AM)PCLizard Wrote: All of these changes will, obviously, change the gameplay. I know change is inevitable. However, are you willing to make so many changes that the gameplay itself is completely different to what nexuiz used to be? Some of the suggestions make it feel like that.
In time Xonotic will grow rather different from what Nexuiz used to be. (if you cant live with that, get out now! ;-) However the point of this thread is just to air different possibilities / ideas. Xonotic 1.0 will likely be rather similar to Nexuiz 2.5.2 in balance and weapon function.

#22
(04-04-2010, 05:25 PM)tZork Wrote: More ammo types

thats a quite good idea.
At the moment there are to many weapons using the cells. The Nex could be the only weapon where is a change from cells to a different ammo typ, like energy spears. Each pack could be like 5 spears = 5 shots. Then you also can increase the damage, because the nex doesnt have much ammo. Also the fireball needs an own typ of ammo like small fuel tanks which are used for the jetpack, since the map is mainly based on fire.

Most important is that there arent to much changes since its it would be a whole lot of work to rebalance the maps again.

#23
Again, I strongly advise against effing with the mortar.
Electro/lighting gun: as long as one can still trigger the electro reacton, it should be fine.
Crylink: Reduce rapid fire speed, leave everything else as it is.
Hagar: Don't eff with hagar, increase push or damage.
RL: Leave as is.

#24
you demand that one weapon stay the same because it's balanced. well here's an idea. how about we think about how we can change the OTHER weapons so THEY are balanced too. even if it means changing the balanced weapon.

if you want everything to stay the same as nexuiz, then go play nexuiz.
Master of mysterious geometries

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#25
Here are the ideas I like. The rest of them (especially weapon merging) seem crazy in my opinion and could ruin gameplay.

General:
Guns have different armor pierce profiles (rather then current flat-rate)
More self-damage

Grenade launcher:
Less radius on primary, slower refire on secondary, longer lifetime on secondary.
Medium dmg & ap

Nex gun:
Slower primary refire, less force, more damage, more ammo use.
Secondary half damage but double and inverted force.
Medium dmg, high ap



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