[SUGGESTION] Distribution through Steam

Steam heavily promotes the use of DRM. Even if Xonotic was distributed via Steam without DRM, it would still help promote the platform, which is a bad thing for everyone that values freedom. More importantly, there are many GPL issues to consider, as Steam isn't set up to distribute source code.

God, if only all DRM was as restrictive as steam. Pay for it once, play wherever you can access steam. But that's neither here nor there, the gpl issues are a real setback.

Roanoke, I assume that first sentence was sarcastic.

And besides, steam even works without an internet connection. I've played Portal many days in offline mode.

Also:

it would still help promote [Steam], which is a bad thing for everyone that values freedom.

I am truly offended by that blatant generalization. Sure, Steam uses DRM (heck, Steam is DRM) but it's "good" DRM, or at least better than SecuROM or that BS they put on the Assassin's Creed 2 DLC. Steam is an example of how DRM should be done when it's needed. Promoting a good example isn't bad at all, and equating that action with not valuing freedom is (a) completely untrue, and (b) a rather bigoted thing to say.

I do not care if you hold that opinion, but please try to keep it to yourself.

It was not sarcasm, if all DRM was Steam DRM, there would be less piracy.

it would still help promote [Steam], which is a bad thing for everyone that values freedom.

I am truly offended by that blatant generalization. Sure, Steam uses DRM (heck, Steam is DRM) but it's "good" DRM, or at least better than SecuROM or that BS they put on the Assassin's Creed 2 DLC. Steam is an example of how DRM should be done when it's needed.

Sorry for my ignorance: how is DRM used in Steam? Doesn't it allow you to play only original games (not downloaded via P2P), only the ones you buy?

I must say I don't agree with your definition of "good" DRM. That is the same old DRM that was pushed by the companies, only it has fewer restrictions than Zune or the first implementations of Trusted Computing (i.e. if the computer's speaker is not DRM-enabled TC would have degraded audio to prevent illegal ripping via audio jack).

You want an example of good DRM? For example, you may have the boot sector of your hard disk signed by DRM, which in turn would allow the PC boot only recognizing the boot sector, therefore rendering a rootkit installation on the boot sector almost impossible (as long as a trusted chain based on the DRM "trusted base" is created).
However this is an academic example I've been taught, I've never heard of it implemented.

In my opinion I've yet to understand how much amount of work would take the devs to prepare for the distribution for Steam, but I'd rather like them to keep working on the game; if Steam was like "give us the source, done" or a big enough community of forum users wanted to port to Steam and could port the game themselves, no problem at all (as long as they fully complied with the GPL).

In all other cases, no thanks. Steam may not be threatening users with tight DRM restrictions, but I'd rather not promote anything closed source and DRM-related.
There are other means of promoting a game and/or getting a larger playerbase; this port may also mean losing some potential developers willing to contribute to open source.

Sorry for my ignorance: how is DRM used in Steam? Doesn't it allow you to play only original games (not downloaded via P2P), only the ones you buy?

What do you mean? the games you buy with steam can only be played with a steam client, however, you can play these games on any steam client.

Steam has free games too.

Yet no open source games. There's no way to distribute the source along with the download afaik.

if it works it would be fantastic because steam is very famous so its a good way to advertise for xonotic

maybe also on impulse
https://developer.impulsedriven.com/#publishing

Yet no open source games. There's no way to distribute the source along with the download afaik.

as per gpl the source doesnt have to be distributed along with the download, it only has to be accessible, which could be done by doing some proper linking, maybe in the steam forums, in the readme or in the game itself (about).

On the other hand, why shouldnt it be possible to include the source in the download.
If looked upon very simple its just an asset of the game as everything else. Only the download size would increase, if that is an issue when dealing with distribution through the online distributers (steam,impulse,dunnowhatelse).

Another problem that comes in my mind, though, are the steamlibs, those are most certainly closed, and it would probably be either some stuff compiled in, or libs/dll accessed through the some interface, though i think the libs solution would work out with gpl, but when it comes to compiling the steamstuff into xonotic, the only solution would be duallicense, which is a nogo (alienTRAP-illfonic).

There is no such thing as "good DRM". The good features Steam has (community stuff) can be replicated in an open, DRM free environment.

i wish the "dial-a-pirate/mojo-mixer" (monkeyisland1+2) solution would be used for EVERYGAME thats DRMfucked. I think "a whispered world" did something similar with 20-sided dice or something.

HAHA... or like the ones from loom + maniac mansion, where you got a pair of paper glasses with red transparent plastic as glass, which u must then use to be able to read game-critical information in the printed manual. awwww.... that was GOOD "copyprotection"

one more: enter word 3 line 2 on page 5 to continue!

if it works it would be fantastic because steam is very famous so its a good way to advertise for xonotic

maybe also on impulse
https://developer.impulsedriven.com/#publishing

I agree with your Impulse idea.

I don't know if impulse will let us host a free game, they're clearly looking for a large profit (70%-85%).

I think this discussion went far enough - without some hard answers it won't get any further... Could one of the game dev's write an e-mail to Valve and ask about the concerns raised here?

to sum up:
- would it cost anything to have Xonotic on Steam?
- what about the license compatibility? GPL vs Steam?
- is it required to compile in some extra Steam specific code into the game? (and again the license)

With answers to there questions the whole idea can be decided upon. Without it we're just shouting in the wind.

I think this discussion went far enough - without some hard answers it won't get any further... Could one of the game dev's write an e-mail to Valve and ask about the concerns raised here?

to sum up:
- would it cost anything to have Xonotic on Steam?
- what about the license compatibility? GPL vs Steam?
- is it required to compile in some extra Steam specific code into the game? (and again the license)

With answers to there questions the whole idea can be decided upon. Without it we're just shouting in the wind.

Aha, yes! Stop all the discussion and ASK Steam. They can tell us. Valve seems to be a good company. I doubt they would try to cheat us.

Could one of the game dev's write an e-mail to Valve and ask about the concerns raised here?

I think it's better if someone highly interested in porting to Steam does that. Since it's Open Source you could sign yourself as "Member of the Steam Porting Draft Team".

Seriously, now.
The poll is open and it says there is no real strong interest in the community for the matter, but the devs' answers from the comments above were either "I don't like it" or "investigate and let us know" (mainly because of GPL concerns), so you have green lights anyway: ask and report here what they say...

Okay... I'll try to get some info.

Steam heavily promotes the use of DRM.

that's just a buzz word to throw around. I only really play multiplayer games, so the whole "oh noes you have to be connected to the net to use it" is a total non-issue for me. other than that, what's so bad then? what's the diff between any multiplayer game with a serial, or steam?

it's easy for people who already know about the game to be elitist about ways to bring it to more people, but at least give a good reason.

Steam heavily promotes the use of DRM.

that's just a buzz word to throw around. I only really play multiplayer games, so the whole "oh noes you have to be connected to the net to use it" is a total non-issue for me.

Okay, so because it's not an issue for you, it's not an issue for anyone. Got it.

other than that, what's so bad then? what's the diff between any multiplayer game with a serial, or steam?

Main difference being: Steam ties itself to every game you get from the service. It requires the user to run Steam in the background whenever he/she wants to play a game.

it's easy for people who already know about the game to be elitist

Complaining about complainers, woo.

Steam heavily promotes the use of DRM.

that's just a buzz word to throw around. I only really play multiplayer games, so the whole "oh noes you have to be connected to the net to use it" is a total non-issue for me.

Okay, so because it's not an issue for you, it's not an issue for anyone. Got it.

other than that, what's so bad then? what's the diff between any multiplayer game with a serial, or steam?

Main difference being: Steam ties itself to every game you get from the service. It requires the user to run Steam in the background whenever he/she wants to play a game.

it's easy for people who already know about the game to be elitist

Complaining about complainers, woo.

There really wouldn't be anything stopping it as long as it is able to comply with the GPL while on the Steam roster. Also the Steam client wouldn't be the only one out there. The reason that a few of want it as a downloadable from Steam is that Steam can act as sort of a billboard for it and attract players, and many of us (myself included) use Steam and/or plan on using Steam when the Linux version gets released most likely at the end of this summer. Oh and about the DRM crap, STEAM DOES NOT REQUIRE A PUBLISHER TO USE DRM and whenever a publisher does use a DRM they list the exact DRM AND it's limitations on the game page.

Funny. The poll has gone perfectly 50/50

Woah, I must have stumbled accidentally into the "STEAM DRM RAAAAGE" topic, which is in the "Off topic" forum...
I should go look for the "Distribution through Steam" topic in the "Suggestion Box" forum...

Well, a week ago I sent an e-mail to Valve asking them about this, and so far I didn't get any reply, so I guess they're not interested :-P. huhm... If there only was some kind of a similar to Steam platform for GPL games distribution... ;-)

This is what I meant when I said "linux steam equivalent":
http://en.djl-linux.org/
Maybe we should talk to them?
Edit: They have nexuiz on their list, so that's good.

This is what I meant when I said "linux steam equivalent":
http://en.djl-linux.org/
Maybe we should talk to them?
Edit: They have nexuiz on their list, so that's good.

Their last revision is 1.2.20 from 2009/10/18, seems no longer in development though.
But of course, we could try.