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XWIT feedback and survey!

#1
Hey guys, so I know this response is rather a bit delayed but we've been a bit busy actually. Lots of things to update you on, so lets just jump into it.

Note: Can a mod move this to the news section please? I am unable to post there directly at the moment.

Introduction
For those of you who don't know, a few of us devs hosted an unofficial testing event called XWIT (Xonotic Weekend In Testing) designed with the goal of getting feedback from the community and determining the future of the balance direction in Xonotic once and for all. You can find more information about XWIT here: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1750

Anyway, XWIT was quite a good success at what we needed it to do. It was a glimpse into what needs done with the game direction, and we're definitely glad to get the feedback from that. Because of the event and other proceeding feedback we got, we have worked quite hard on improving some things with the balance and such. I'll go into detail below in the thread, but mostly lets just talk about the survey I promised in the XWIT announcement.

Today we've unleashed the survey for the XWIT event, so team Xonotic can finally make the decision about which direction to go with weapons and such in a way which has the most amount of people happy and having fun. What I need YOU to do, is give your opinion on the issues we stated in the survey, and let us know what we should do with such weapons like the laser, shotgun, nexgun charge, etc. By giving your feedback, you guys essentially help decide what will happen with those issues.

SURVEY LINK IS HERE: http://www.xonotic.org/survey/ - I encourage you to read the rest of this forum post as well though so you can see insight onto what we've been doing.


Your feedback
A lot of feedback came from primarily just a few things... Though, mostly people complained about the balance switching every match, but we had to do this to keep it fair and true to one of the purposes of the event. Regardless, obviously that will never happen again in the future-- it was only temporary and I thank those who stuck it through and continued even though you may have been frustrated by it.

Further things which I got feedback on for balancing issues especially was: The laser generally was too weak in some cases, the shotgun melee was too slow/difficult to use most of the time or to some they missed the old shotgun burst on secondary. Specifically with my balance: The electro energy orbs were a bit too difficult to place due to their high speed, and the machine gun was a bit overpowered. Also there was A LOT of feedback about the physics, but i'll explain this later in the post.

I believe we came up with a fix/compromise for ALL of those things which is what i've been working on for the past week or so, though I still need more input. After the results of the survey are in, i'll give detailed information on the changes I made to those weapons.

Also: I know there are a few more people I need to reply to (like c.brutail) -- don't worry, i'll get to you ^_^


Physics
Out of all the heated debate and such over IRC and the forums and in game, we came up with a compromise for the physics. EVERYONE wanted something more complex and skillful to be in the physics, as Xonotic physics previously lacked strafe acceleration. Well, we have news.

Strafe acceleration is back. Only this time it's quite a bit more precise, and allows for sharper turning. Think of Nexuiz physics mixed with Quake Live physics, that's rather what it feels like.

We had to make some engine changes for this though, actually. Basically, the implementation we did was a "limited" strafe acceleration -- so there is a limit to how good of acceleration you could do. HOWEVER, before you get upset -- You almost humanly cannot hit that limit. The limit is merely there to prevent things like strafebots and such. This limit WILL NOT affect normal players in any way, basically. It only makes it so that "literally perfect" strafing doesn't have a major advantage over "good" strafing.


Conclusion
Now, the physics and potentially new balance direction are obviously going to need some more testing and perhaps some tweaking, but the general direction of this game is looking very good now. Speaking of more testing... Due to the usefulness of the XWIT event, a lot of people are suggesting that we make this some kind of reoccurring event which happens e.g. twice a month or such. Now, i'm not sure if I can keep up with organizing that, but that's definitely an idea i'm going to consider. Either way, we DEFINITELY have another event planned for our next official release.

Anyway two other things: We are still working on creating a new weapon for the lightning gun, it's in the works at the moment. Please be patient, it probably won't make it into the next stable release but I assure you it will be here as soon as we can get the base of the design working perfectly.

Also: We're still working on the results for the last "community survey" -- it turns out that since it was so huge, the database itself is VERY difficult to extract information from. Antibody and [-z-] are working on getting useful information out of it now, so don't worry. Of course we're sorry about the extreme delay of those results, but our web administrators have been understandably busy with their own jobs.




Anyway, I would just like to thank you all for participating and contributing feedback.. and also just to remind you to try and keep your feedback as constructive as possible -- THAT is when we listen the hardest and make changes.

Big Grin
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#2
When/how can we preview this new physics setup? Is it still WIP?
Fat.bot.Slim
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#3
Thank you for setting up this very usefull survey. I am happy to have been able to participate!
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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#4
The physics are already default in git.

Btw, to expand on what Samual said about the new physics, they actually don't feel much different from old physics, you have the same control over turns and such, in fact I think most people might not even notice the difference. The difference is that with some practice you will be able to accelerate faster. There are different methods to do it as well. What Samual described as "nexuiz physics mixed with Quake Live physics" is more related to pressing both forward and strafe method (which was useless in old physics), where you bunnyhop while doing a curve/mouse gesture at the right angle and speed to get more acceleration. You won't get as much control over turns using this method as with only strafes, but you will get a lot of acceleration. Then if you only use strafes it is more like Quakeworld bunnyhopping, you can do very sharp turns and you can also gain the same acceleration, but it might take more practice to get the most of the acceleration. I suggest practicing the forward+strafe method first to understand the mechanics.

If you are already used to physics that were default before those changes, you won't have any problems adjusting, as it behave exactly the same. Only now, there are more possibilities to gain speed than just pressing one key and looking at the speedometer raising at a constant rate as you bunnyhop.
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#5
thanks for the explanations, Nifrek.

Does the "only strafe" accel feel like Nexuiz or does it feel really new even for old Nexuiz players?
(I don't have GIT atm)
Fat.bot.Slim
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#6
Hmm well, it'll be new for them in that they can turn very sharply (as it was in old xonotic physics), so it might take a bit of practice to find the "soft spot" to get the most accel, but the mechanics are the same (as with any quake engine-based game that has strafe accel, I would assume).

Keep in mind I only been playing with the physics since yesterday, only explaining what I got from it so far. I find doing a circlejump followed by the forward+strafe method to be easier for quick boost, but requires more room as you can't do sharp turns as when using only strafe. It's similar to nexuiz forward+strafe in fact, same kind of curve but the angle in more inwards. Also, switching from forward+strafe can be very very smooth, it's quite nice, so you can get a lot of accel from forward+strafe then switch to strafe when there are obstacles/corners to avoid while keeping the speed you gained.
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#7
Survey filled! Tongue

Edit: Ow you can fill it several times? :O You should connect it with forum accounts or something.
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#8
Shouldn't main page get updated? There's 0.1 Community Survey which leads to XWIT survey... Big Grin
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#9
(05-19-2011, 04:38 AM)nifrek Wrote: Hmm well, it'll be new for ....
Sounds exciting.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#10
(05-19-2011, 06:06 AM)Exitium Wrote: Shouldn't main page get updated? There's 0.1 Community Survey which leads to XWIT survey... Big Grin

Fixed, thanks for letting me know!
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#11
I had some new ideas while filling out the text box on the bottom, and of course they won't be recognized unless other people support them too.
What I Wrote:Laser: Actually I think the z-force is good enough but I would like to see more general push so I can laser off walls going down a hall.
Shotgun: Nexuiz secondary was overspammed, please do not bring that back.
MG: I like the reload but the secondary fire doesn't make sense. It lets out a burst with less spread, which makes it longer range--- but not really. I would prefer a reload here or the old nexuiz secondary.
Minelayer: Needs to be simpler. Right now it is kind of useless what with the timelimit detonation, safety parameters for player and teamates, etc. I would prefer no safety parameters, very long timelimit detonation, and slightly higher damage per mine (being as you're only allowed three).
Hagar and HLAC: in both balances these are fairly similar. IMHO one should be removed.
Sniper rifle: As it is right now, it should be removed. I think it still has potential though, it should be given higher refire and no extra swtich delay, with main damage turned down (so it really only rewards you if you get a headshot). Carbine-style.
Nexgun: I would like to see push falloff. Damage falloff is not necessary and is kind of annoying, but push falloff would prevent boring stalemates on maps like space elevator and spamming on maps like Above. In fact I think this is why Space elevator went with the sniper rifle. As far as charging is concerned I think it's fine, but it would be nice to have it charged when you pick it up.
Electro: Nice to see the bolt back but the secondary "blobs" go to far to fast. They should be a defensive option for losing pursuers.
Crylink: Samual's please.
TAG Seeker: Samual's is good in concept but needs serious balancing help. I suggest fewer rockets with more damage and push per rocket.
Fireball: instead of making it a powerup I would kind of like to see it turn into a high-spread short-range lightning gun, like a cone of damage. It is very easy to suicide with it and actually not all that effective unless your enemies are in a group.
MinstaNex: Secondary should push opponents too, but not do any damage.
Porto-launch: I would like to see this replaced with a teleporter device that allows you to teleport to a random location on the map (using a system like the relics spawn system). I've actually seen this done before, can't be to hard. This could also be a mutator.

One other thing I want to address is the Health and armor models, they are much lower visibility than the old ones and harder to distinguish between.

And I am not really a competitive clan player but I outmatch most public player so I go to xonotic.pickup when I can.

I'm not trying to turn this into a balance thread, so ignore all the opinion stuff and dig the idea stuff, mainly the fireball, and porto, also it would be nice if we could get some new ideas for MG secondary.
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#12
Actually a lot of the stuff you said there was going in a direction we already had planned on... like removing HLAC, and making the sniper rifle into more like a carbine-style-rifle, not actually meant totally for sniping.

I agree with you for the shotgun and the laser, and that's why my laser adjustment only changes force on the horizontal force and the amount of force based on your current speed.

As for the MG, I personally really think the secondary is very useful at long range once you learn how to use it properly... but, who knows... BTW, you can reload any weapon which has it by simply pressing the bind for that weapon again.

The electro, I would have to disagree with a little bit -- it's not too fast, but rather too difficult to place in one place exactly. I don't want it to be a short range weapon, so I instead made it so that when the orbs touch the ground/bounce, they lose quite a lot of velocity. You can't see this very much unless you pay attention, but you will notice a very clear difference between my old balance and the one with the updates in that you can now control where they go much easier.

The seeker is probably going to be removed or made into a super weapon in favor of the hagar (which has a new secondary now thanks to Taoki)

And on the subject of superweapons.... I really think it would be a bad idea to do that to the fireball -- it's actually rather useful as a super weapon in my balance, and when we do have the code for it done I think it will be much better as a powerup.

I agree about the minstanex, but the problem is I don't think we can actually do force without damage... I'll look into it. -- Probably not a good idea to get rid of that gun, actually, but make something new instead. I did see that teleporting device idea suggested before, but I personally was not interested in it at all honestly. Also: We cannot use that random placement method for such a thing, it would most certainly not work in an acceptable way.

Oh and finally, I definitely agree about the health/armor models to some extent.. but those can easily be fixed/made more obvious or something.
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#13
What type of player would you describe yourself as?
i dont know, what should i chose there.

Generally, which weapon balance do you prefer the most from playtesting?

here i would like the option none of both
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
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#14
(05-19-2011, 01:47 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: What type of player would you describe yourself as?
i dont know, what should i chose there.

Generally, which weapon balance do you prefer the most from playtesting?

here i would like the option none of both
Really, though? I thought that question was rather simple... I guess I should've added a "not even a gamer at all" option? Tongue I mean well.... It's simple... it's just mostly based on how much you play and how much you want to involve yourself with other players. I'd probably put you at casual, even though you contribute and such as that is another hobby.

As for the balance questions..... I suppose I already know your thoughts on that elsewhere Tongue
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#15
Just filled out the survey, and I'll post my comments here just so everyone can read them.

I wouldn't call it "game breaking", but the relatively weak laser caused frustration for me. IMO, it went from being a versatile movement tool and weapon to being a practically useless movement tool. It still functioned as a decent weapon, but it's the kind of gun that needs to have the movement perks, otherwise it becomes useless across the board.

As for the shotgun melee, I think it could be better applied somewhere else. Prior to XWIT, I had no problems with it, but I noticed some issues after playing CTF with it all weekend. Without a strong 3 round burst secondary, players are very weak upon spawning. The shotgun primary coupled with the laser is simply too weak to start out with, since melee is practically useless right off spawn. A 3 round burst secondary similar to the Nexuiz balance provides a player with the ability to defend himself off spawn without being overpowering. That being said, I like the addition of melee. I really don't think it belongs on the shotgun, but I'm still undecided about making it available on all weapons or adding a specific melee weapon. I'm leaning towards making it available across the board because it would make close range battles less awkward, since there isn't really any short-range specific weapon currently.

Regarding nexgun charging, I think it needs to go. A weapon like the nex absolutely needs to have consistent damage. For that matter, the idea of variable and inconsistent damage for any weapon is stupid. The sniper rifle is the only gun that shouldn't have variable damage (headshots vs. bodyshots). The last thing the game needs is an inconsistent weapon.
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#16
(05-19-2011, 09:21 PM)Samual Wrote: Really, though? I thought that question was rather simple... I guess I should've added a "not even a gamer at all" option? Tongue I mean well.... It's simple... it's just mostly based on how much you play and how much you want to involve yourself with other players. I'd probably put you at casual, even though you contribute and such as that is another hobby.

i understand the question, but none of the answers fit to my playing style.
im like competitive public playing mapper.
or is there any better description of that screenshot below?
[Image: hh52rme6fgwukp44rhkr_thumb.jpg]
<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
<divVerent> if you don't pay for a premium account, your movement speed is limited to 100qu/s
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#17
(05-20-2011, 05:35 AM)Cortez666 Wrote:
(05-19-2011, 09:21 PM)Samual Wrote: Really, though? I thought that question was rather simple... I guess I should've added a "not even a gamer at all" option? Tongue I mean well.... It's simple... it's just mostly based on how much you play and how much you want to involve yourself with other players. I'd probably put you at casual, even though you contribute and such as that is another hobby.

i understand the question, but none of the answers fit to my playing style.
im like competitive public playing mapper.
or is there any better description of that screenshot below?
[Image: hh52rme6fgwukp44rhkr_thumb.jpg]

Something like "Competitive Casual Player"?

Some kind of guy, who plays with friends/team/clan, but mainly just for fun. Playing like "Hardcore Player", but with less skill and without actual competition. Just playing as a team because it's fun and involves in team just as much as he/she wants.

Something like that?
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#18
hahahaha -30. you don't get that kind of score by accident.

it takes skill
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#19
See the latest balanceSamual in action Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldkj_ST7tSo
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#20
(05-20-2011, 03:52 AM)slash Wrote: ...
As for the shotgun melee, I think it could be better applied somewhere else. Prior to XWIT, I had no problems with it, but I noticed some issues after playing CTF with it all weekend. Without a strong 3 round burst secondary, players are very weak upon spawning. The shotgun primary coupled with the laser is simply too weak to start out with, since melee is practically useless right off spawn. A 3 round burst secondary similar to the Nexuiz balance provides a player with the ability to defend himself off spawn without being overpowering. That being said, I like the addition of melee. I really don't think it belongs on the shotgun, but I'm still undecided about making it available on all weapons or adding a specific melee weapon. I'm leaning towards making it available across the board because it would make close range battles less awkward, since there isn't really any short-range specific weapon currently.

....

I played 3hrs of nexuiz yesterday after a long time, followed by a fresh xonotic git update for about an h. I got really annoyed with the sg 3burst in nexuiz DM. you are really _supposed_ to be weak after the spawn. That's the point of your fragger gaining some advantage over your dying. In nexuiz, even in DCC settings with teh sg being nerfed a bit, i could have all the weapons, and if i am at a 50/50 stack i can still die from a fresh spawned player i didn't first spot. I find this highly frustrating. Ridiculous aggresion off the spawn should be penalized highly in any frag based point count game mode imo. Same for CTF. you cannot just die cause 2 fresh spawned sg only players are there 3bursting you to oblivion Smile . Xonotic felt way way better in this.

I also favor the nex recharge. puts some more thought/tactics on nex spamming (hehe mirio, you nex spam like crazy on the video Tongue ).

Finally. I would get rid of the xonotic mg and put the lg instead. much more consistent and useful. mg feels wrong atm.

I would keep the seeker. after all its a really funny weapon, doesn't hurt the balance i think.
Hagar felt a bit more usefull now somehow.

cheers.
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#21
Replacing the machine gun with a lightning gun is one of those few drastic changes that I think would be both interesting and actually improve the game a bit (modify the current one to spit out thermite so that it still uses bullets if needed) . We already have the crylink and the HLAC anyway, though none of them are hit-scan and the crylink bounces, but still.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#22
On IRC someone suggested merging the MG and Rifle, I like this idea, primary could be like MG now, secondary could be like Nex. rifle (more carbine like). They could both pull out of the same clip that way.

As they're both clipped weapons anyway I think this would be awesome (but possibly overpowered? well, that's a balancing issue).
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#23
(05-22-2011, 06:56 AM)booo Wrote: I played 3hrs of nexuiz yesterday after a long time, followed by a fresh xonotic git update for about an h. I got really annoyed with the sg 3burst in nexuiz DM. you are really _supposed_ to be weak after the spawn. That's the point of your fragger gaining some advantage over your dying. In nexuiz, even in DCC settings with teh sg being nerfed a bit, i could have all the weapons, and if i am at a 50/50 stack i can still die from a fresh spawned player i didn't first spot. I find this highly frustrating. Ridiculous aggresion off the spawn should be penalized highly in any frag based point count game mode imo. Same for CTF. you cannot just die cause 2 fresh spawned sg only players are there 3bursting you to oblivion Smile . Xonotic felt way way better in this.

Give this man a medal Smile

All of your post was good, but completely agree with what you say that your supposed to be weak off the spawn, and is indeed the point of gaining advantage of fragging someone.

Also, lg swapping in for MG could be an idea, but so is this mg + carbine idea.
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#24
(05-24-2011, 03:09 PM)kojn^ Wrote:
(05-22-2011, 06:56 AM)booo Wrote: I played 3hrs of nexuiz yesterday after a long time, followed by a fresh xonotic git update for about an h. I got really annoyed with the sg 3burst in nexuiz DM. you are really _supposed_ to be weak after the spawn. That's the point of your fragger gaining some advantage over your dying. In nexuiz, even in DCC settings with teh sg being nerfed a bit, i could have all the weapons, and if i am at a 50/50 stack i can still die from a fresh spawned player i didn't first spot. I find this highly frustrating. Ridiculous aggresion off the spawn should be penalized highly in any frag based point count game mode imo. Same for CTF. you cannot just die cause 2 fresh spawned sg only players are there 3bursting you to oblivion Smile . Xonotic felt way way better in this.

Give this man a medal Smile

All of your post was good, but completely agree with what you say that your supposed to be weak off the spawn, and is indeed the point of gaining advantage of fragging someone.

Also, lg swapping in for MG could be an idea, but so is this mg + carbine idea.

I have to say I somewhat aggree with booo though I never put it into words its one of the factors preventing me from achieving 'GENOCIDE!' or whatever equivalant anouncment you get when you get a high number of kills (personal best 78Smile.

On the other hand, look at it from the spawning players perspective. If some guy, armed to the teeth, in terminator mode is going around the 2nd fire seems to balance it out.

True I wouldn't like to be fragged by someone whilst having a fair bit of health but it would be unbalanced not to have that damage to begin with.

I guess the compromise would be to have a more prominant visual affect for when someone spawns.

Damn this is offtopic!
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#25
IMHO, MG is fine. But we still need an LG (as an additional weapon, not replacing anything)
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