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Massive CTF updates

#26
Which parts of the new ctf stuff is silly to me, why and maybe how to solve it:

Notifications like "Your enemy got your flag." "A team mate got the flag. defend him".
This message is colored by team so if i am red your enemy will always be blue and team mate blue.
This is annoying since you always have to think about which team you are or read the message.
The colored text jumps into your eye. But it will change colors every game you play.
Better would be if for example enemy would be RED always and TEAM blue. Then there is no need to think about anything. It is the same each game.

Showing location of enemy flag carrier from time to time.
This sounds good on first hand. It discourages camping with flag in base. But this also discourages attacking with flag. If you get visible during an attack/or at least close to enemy base you are doomed. So with this marker on my head i need to move around the map senseless without real need to do anything (no def no attack).

For the sounds: maybe add different sounds to kill of fc and voluntary drop?
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#27
(09-12-2012, 02:14 PM)Ablu Wrote: Better would be if for example enemy would be RED always and TEAM blue.

While the current wording perhaps is not ideal, I can't agree with this suggestion. Red and blue are already taken as team colours so this would add confusion, just taking away the colouring would give a less confusing result.
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#28
but still forces you to actually READ it
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#29
If I'm fc and nobody kills the enemy fc for too long, I'll just hunt him myself. Mostly you can just catch him by surprise, but trying to get a quick kill on a fc will become almost impossible this way. And people can easily do stuff like waiting arount the corner for you. There is no way you can know they camp there, and they see exactly what you do.

So I do agree with Ablu that this might very well discourage active play by flag carriers. Maybe it could be a solution to give the possition of a long living fc every 30 seconds, but please don't put a huge waypoint on his head.
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#30
(09-12-2012, 03:00 PM)Mepper Wrote: Maybe it could be a solution to give the possition of a long living fc every 30 seconds

agreed.

The new throw capping is really helpfull when you overshoot your target on a space map:
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#31
While the cap is truly epic, this is exactly what I was talking about previously.
Not just he captured in a way that's normally not feasible (plus numerous punishments are removed, like loosing the flag in the last second before capture), but also cut down the corner (I totally cannot see how moving there would have been faster).
If passing is also made with this speed plus AUTOAIM to target (I wonder if it's that way, Samual didn't write about it), it'd be easy just to line up my team mates, and pass the flag back to the base.
Also, I'd like to point out that the "pass flag to capture + throw flag to point X to capture" is already there in the game, just pretty much untested in normal gameplay: nexball with guns. (passing system is implemented in nexball code since last Christmas).

When I get back home, I'll surely try the same capture on NN, as I'm pretty much not convinced that this is a good idea.
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#32
(09-12-2012, 06:41 PM)s1lencer Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 03:00 PM)Mepper Wrote: Maybe it could be a solution to give the possition of a long living fc every 30 seconds
agreed.

Nah, not 30 seconds... You know how long 30 sec are in gametime? The FC could get anywhere on the map in this timerange. With that long update interval, you might as well remove the feature. On the other hand, 5 or 10 seconds would be okay imho. Then you would have a feeling where the FC is moving around, but not his exact position.


@S1lencer: Nice cap, dude! Big Grin
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#33
Nice work Mister. Wink
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#34
(09-13-2012, 01:25 AM)zykure Wrote: Nah, not 30 seconds... You know how long 30 sec are in gametime? The FC could get anywhere on the map in this timerange. With that long update interval, you might as well remove the feature. On the other hand, 5 or 10 seconds would be okay imho. Then you would have a feeling where the FC is moving around, but not his exact position.

That removes major part of ctf gaming - knowledge of map and evasion. You end up with game-play more similar ffa. I dont see a point in that, except for newbie servers.

The flag thrown by s1lencer also shows that throwing needs further balancing. Before the updats, FC would often be killed just before capping, making game more fun. Now, this might be eliminated from the game-play as many/most caps will be made by throwing.
Also, throwing by that distance may promote crazy team flag runs. That might look nice at first glance, but its not. Just look at warsow - because of possible flag runs (with their speed and wall jumping) they ended up with almost no ctf, and were forced to add gimmicks like stun.

I think throwing should be limited to much smaller distance. And capping should be left as it was, i.e. FC touching flag in the home base.
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#35
Showing fthe fc every few seconds will still have the same effect. i am for either removing it again or setting delay to something like 60seconds. getting the flag back is always the most interesting part. especially when both teams stole the flag. i see no point in dropping this fun by showing the fc to everyone.
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#36
(09-12-2012, 06:41 PM)s1lencer Wrote: The new throw capping

have been quite inactive. this feature is cool!!!
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#37
Alright, lots of information to go over... I've been very busy, and this is quite a time consuming post to make, so I do apologize. Anyway, let me organize this and address it as best as possible:


Flag Throwing
Let me start with some background information... The reasoning behind allowing flags to cap is quite simple: The goal of CTF is to get the enemy flag to your base, essentially "capturing" it for yourself at your flag. Now, during development I noticed something fishy... if you drop a flag immediately after picking it up, it just sits there... even though it's technically on its base still. See this picture. Later on after fixing this, I noticed is that there is a logical hole in the concept with capturing as well: If you drop a flag onto the base, is that not TECHNICALLY bringing the enemy flag to yours? It moved the same distance; it went to the same location, it should denote a capture. As seen in this picture, it just looks silly... So that's why I made the feature to fix it.

As for flag throw balancing... Passed flags move at 500qu ALWAYS, and thrown flags have a maximum speed as well which are manipulated by the games Newtonian mechanics... thrown flags get slower if you throw them away from your velocity, but also have a limit on how fast they can be thrown... so, really, you can just cap faster/more reliably by just holding it yourself and running with the flag then throwing it. I tried the same exact curve on Space Elevator, and just by using air control I can cap faster than what is possible by throwing the flag. Try it yourself if you really must, use a savegame from a spot before the curve then try each method 5 times... average the results and if you're honest you'll see that using air control is faster than throwing the flag. By the way, the flag carrier can still be killed before capturing-- If you throw a flag while moving fast, it WILL move slower than you and probably won't even actually make it to the base unless you aim it perfectly. Really, this doesn't take anyway any defensive qualities of CTF with stopping people from capturing by killing them before they get to their base, and people who say this clearly haven't played with it enough.

Finally though... I have come up with a feature/compromise for you folks though, I can add a delay for the automatic collection/returning feature, this way you can't throw a flag to cap instantly, but maybe after it has been sitting there for a 1 second delay. (Then, you can just shoot it off the base or return it yourself in time or such) This way it still gets rid of the stupid problem where flags just SIT there even though they technically fit the goal of the game mode of being captured.

Notifications
I've noticed quite a bit of people actually talking about this, and certainly not just from the forums, so I thought i'd clarify the goals and reasoning behind the changes... First of all, we're planning on phasing out the console log in the top left corner, so all the game information is supposed to be moved to other panels on the HUD (like joins/parts will be moved into chat box, and game events will be set up properly in the notify/centerprint panels respectively)... So that's why there are quite a lot more events added into the centerprints now. Second, the centerprints are given color coded information of the team it refers to, this is the most logical and unambiguous way considering our teams have fixed colors (red vs blue, not good vs bad).

However, the eventual goal I have will resolve both of those issues for everyone. Essentially, I want to create a global notification system to network game events/kill events to clients... Right now, we have a "killnotification" system which sends events to panels and with centerprints, however the system is incomplete and not appropriate for game modes to use properly. What i'm planning on doing is unifying this entire system, cleaning it up, and making use of it in ALL game modes... And what will that allow, you ask? #1: Translated game events (capture the flag currently has no translations for example, it's not possible yet), #2: Customizable event messages (yes, you will be able to set a variable to have a unique customized message... or you can just create your own language, like pirate mode or LOL mode.), #3: Cleaner, easier, and more consistent ways to program events into game modes.

The only reason I did not do this before merging the CTF code is because it is a MASSIVE undertaking, it's literally at least 50 hours of work, and i'm just so worn out from programming CTF already. However, I didn't want to wait for such a massive thing to get the benefits of the mostly completed CTF improvements.

Stalemate
Stalemates goal is to speed up the gameplay, it is to make it MORE DIFFICULT to hold a flag during the time of stalemate, I do believe stalemate accomplishes this quite well. Additionally, making the waypointsprites update periodically really is not worth it... It's actually quite a decent amount of work to create a system to update/refresh/clean up the waypointsprites for enemy flag carriers constantly like that, and I don't think it has much of a benefit in relation to the Stalemates goal. So, I should say, it's less about discouraging camping, and more about allowing the gameplay to progress faster by showing players where the flag carrier is. I don't understand where you get off saying "no def no attack" though, any time i'm FC in stalemate i'm always defending myself-- I generally get hunted down when that happens, so... seems to me like the system works as it should.



Oh and... We can't really do new sounds for kill of FC/voluntary drop like that, or at least I certainly can't do them well enough-- I don't really think they're necessary at all though honestly, as the game notifications already cover the proper information.
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#38
Quote:As seen in this picture, it just looks silly... So that's why I made the feature to fix it.
What you call silly has delivered countless amazing situations in the past years (hint: people don't deliberately drop the flag there but get fragged with a last second save shot, which is one of the greatest things in ctf imo). But whatever.. maybe flag throwing and auto-capping is fun to people.
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#39
Agree with asyyy. Its not about what "looks" silly, but about what makes game more entertaining. Hell, aren't futball rules sillly? Smile
And those last second FC kills DO make game more entertaining. With throw-capping a lot of these is removed from the game, as FC will throw just before being killed and will often cap this way. Again I belive the best option is to make capping the "classic" way, i.e. FC touches the base.

(09-16-2012, 10:53 AM)Samual Wrote: Stalemate
Stalemates goal is to speed up the gameplay, it is to make it MORE DIFFICULT to hold a flag during the time of stalemate

And that's fundamentally wrong direction. Two strong FC's is what makes CTF different from ffa-like frag fest. Hunts/attacks/defences on FC's makes for challanging and exciting game. With vulnerable FCs you end up with ffa-like game and occasional flag runs. Yes, that might be faster, but is also shallow.
I see only one justification for this feature, i.e. on beginner servers where players are unable to comprehed proper ctf.
This feature should not be required on pure servers.
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#40
Suggestion to not break 3v3 ctf:

change stalemate to only ping FC every 30 seconds for two minuites or more

so 60s, 30s, 30s, 30s, 30s, flag lock on.

or something like that so only legitimatley problematic stalemates break active FC play.

...
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#41
I agree with asyyy and Subzero.
First thing that came into my mind while checking the screenshot: "Awwww no more close FC kills" - which is really an amazing feeling. Smile
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#42
Uh, how so, no more close FC kills? No more FC kills close enough for flags to touch, sure, but that doesn't mean you can't kill a FC close to the flag though.

With the additional delay before capture and the speed tradeoff, will every FC throw the flag instead of capturing it? Perhaps those of you offering this criticism against throw captures should test it out for a while and see how it balances.

Maybe requiring the former FC to be alive to score a thrown capture could fix the issue, should it it really exist?
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#43
(09-16-2012, 05:48 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Uh, how so, no more close FC kills? No more FC kills close enough for flags to touch, sure, but that doesn't mean you can't kill a FC close to the flag though.

With the additional delay before capture and the speed tradeoff, will every FC throw the flag instead of capturing it? Perhaps those of you offering this criticism against throw captures should test it out for a while and see how it balances.

Maybe requiring the former FC to be alive to score a thrown capture could fix the issue, should it it really exist?
I agree with this, I really don't think these people have played much with it... I've played at least 20 matches with it and had no such issue in any way whatsoever, still the same kind of "clutch" kills happen to stop captures.

Either way, my compromise idea (delaying the flag to cap automatically by ~1 second or so, maybe 2) should already be good enough.
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#44
hey. i like the idea of the throwing flag, but me as mapper think that the new maps will go in the direction of throwing the flag in a right way to cap the flag. dunno if you know what i mean. its just a thought in the future xD

your xP
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#45
Some updates:
  • Adjust and add cvars for controlling the flag throwing/dropping limitations/velocities
  • Fixed several bugs (passing while dead, passing to vehicles
  • Finished warpzone support for passing (so now passing is enabled by default)
  • Made passing work by aiming-- now you have to look "in the general direction" of the player you want to pass the flag to
  • Made the flag passing path go upwards in an arc, almost appearing like it is thrown (seems more realistic/convincing)-- also helps stop the flag from getting caught on geometry while being passed

Coming soon:
  • Delay for flags being captured automatically when dropped on a base
  • Penalty for throwing the flag many times in a row (example, if you throw the flag 4 times in a row, you are no longer able to throw the flag)
  • Fixes for Stalemate (fix repeated stalemate notification message, fix timing for larger maps with dynamic timing, add countdown until stalemate begins, and finally MAYBE add a pulsing (every 10 seconds or so) notification instead of constant notification of enemy flag carrier location)

Coming not-as-soon, but before next release:
  • Special game notification system implementation (better/customizable centerprints and other notifications)
  • Make flag angles chase the pass target properly when seeking them out
  • Finish up defaultXPM.cfg to properly support competitive settings throughout the whole game, this way competitive and public servers can have better game mode settings each respectively
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#46
Yo, are you going to add a feature where flag carries can't enter vehicles? I think that would be a good idea.
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#47
(09-21-2012, 03:39 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote: Yo, are you going to add a feature where flag carries can't enter vehicles? I think that would be a good idea.
I actually can't stop players from entering a vehicle-- however, I can force players to drop the flag upon entering a vehicle (so you can't carry and be in a vehicle at the same time)... that cvar already exists.

Personally, I think that's unnecessary, as vehicles don't REALLY have much of a problem with CTF gameplay depending on the map, but it's up to the mapper/server owner.
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#48
Quote:however, I can force players to drop the flag upon entering a vehicle
g_vehicles_allow_flagcarry have been around for quite some time, i coded that just in case someone would want a serv that disallow flags in vehicles.
if there's enough demand i can add support for not being able to enter at all.

Quote:Delay for flags being captured automatically when dropped on a base
Sounds good! last millisecond saves are awesome.
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#49
(09-22-2012, 01:20 AM)tZork Wrote:
Quote:however, I can force players to drop the flag upon entering a vehicle
g_vehicles_allow_flagcarry have been around for quite some time, i coded that just in case someone would want a serv that disallow flags in vehicles.
if there's enough demand i can add support for not being able to enter at all.
Sure, all I need is a mutator hook function--- i.e. then I can just return true or false whether or not to allow entrance -- maybe this is a better way to handle things than forcing the player to drop the flag without warning?
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#50
Quote:maybe this is a better way to handle things than forcing the player to drop the flag without warning?

Yeah, definately. It just seems like a no brainer to me. It will also encourage more team play as team members need to protect the fc instead of just letting a pro player go out on his own and do all the work.

Loads of games (like Halo) stop you from piloting/using vehicles while you've got a flag.

Also, having a gigantic flag poking out of a vehicle looks really stupid imo. Tongue
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