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Balance changes?!

#1
An issue was recently brought up that resulted in a bad change to the official balance in the Git repository.
The change has since been reverted, but the issue remains:

The electro's secondary orbs fall behind while you're running forward, leading to explosions in your face rather than the enemy's.
An attempted fix for this was to simply reduce the electro's midair combo radius drastically, which doesn't solve the problem and also makes it much harder to use midair combos (a new feature of 0.8).

My solution to this involves bringing back newtonian style projectile speed (the kind that flies forward as you're moving, instead of falling behind), and decreasing the midair combo radius slightly.

For this to become official though, it will require some testing, as these changes may be controversial.
This is where you come in!
The following settings have been applied to the '[HUB] Duel' servers, and may be tested locally:

g_balance_electro_primary_midaircombo_radius 100
g_projectiles_newton_style 2

Thank you all for your support, hope to get this in before the 0.8.1 release!


Edit:
Here's a couple of videos to show off the issue, for those with no time for fun and games:

Current (0.8) electro explosions:


New options to test:
[Image: 230.png]
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#2
Prepare yourself..a balance storm is coming.
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#3
Prepare yourself... a kojn is posting again.
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#4
That things like this is required kinda shows the midair combo feature is quite unintuitive, no?
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#5
Instead of changing how all projectiles work to fix an issue pertaining to one specific use of one specific weapon, I'd much rather just get rid of midair combos altogether. I have not been a fan of that feature since I first discovered it, and after several matches with it, my opinion remains the same. You've always been able to do mid-air combos, as proven by my video below. Pre 0.8, you had to make sure that your primary hit your opponent to activate the combo. It forced you to either be VERY accurate to get the benefits of a high-damage combo, or utilize map geometry to activate combos. It gave the weapon a specific role/usage scenario that I felt fit into the game quite well.



If you are against getting rid of mid-air combos, I'd prefer to lower the combo radius by quite a bit (it shouldn't be as easy as it is to activate a mid-air combo) and just have players learn to not use the electro combo when in motion. If you are consistently causing self-damage with a combo while in-motion, the lesson is to stop doing that and start using a weapon more suited for that scenario. There's nothing wrong with weapons that aren't viable in specific scenarios.

And finally, I'm against neutonian physics for projectiles as it adds a layer of inconsistency to combat while in motion that is simply not needed. Combat is something that needs to remain consistent in order to be satisfying and feel like you're in control. Neutonian physics has been turned off in Duel/XPM servers for a reason, and should remain so.


EDIT: I just wanted to add that I agree with machine's post below mine. He summed up some of my feelings towards the current version of this weapon perfectly.
[Image: 2823.png]
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#6
Even if mid-air combos will be easier, it totally destroys the regular usage of electro.

Before you could spam a few electro balls then shoot off the primary and they would hit at a specific spot, but now you have to waits for the balls to land then shoot the primary: this dramatically change the weapon. This is not just a balance change it's a totally new gun good and bad in totally other scenarios.

What was electro good for before?
  • Spamming/blocking
  • Prediction shots
  • Longer range spam (less so with new crylink secondary ofc)

What is the new electro good for?
  • Hitting people falling down on hub
  • Making cool looking frags, but that doesn't require much skill to perform
  • Shooting yourself in the foot

Rocket launcher already is a good choice in situations where you gotta shoot vertically with splash weapon, I think this feature is pretty much redundant.
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#7
The exploding infront issue remains even without midair combos. Also, newtonian projectiles were enabled in the default balance in the past, then disabled in 0.8 when XPM and default were merged.

There's been a few people experiencing the combo issue, so I don't think devastator is really doing the job there (situational weapons don't really work when you don't have all the weapons).

I'm actually not against removing midair combos (perhaps a poll for post-0.8.1), but it would be silly to introduce a gameplay mechanic one release and remove it in the next one.
Instead, perhaps newtonian projectiles can remain off in just the XPM balance (as it was before), and also with a lowered combo radius in both.
[Image: 230.png]
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#8
Quote:The exploding infront issue remains even without midair combos. Also, newtonian projectiles were enabled in the default balance in the past, then disabled in 0.8 when XPM and default were merged.

There's been a few people experiencing the combo issue, so I don't think devastator is really doing the job there

As far as this issue being there before the midair combos were added, I do remember noticing it when playing on default configs in the 0.6 and 0.7 days. It did strike me as odd when it happened to me, but I just learned that it was a good way to hurt myself and tried to stop doing so.

I will say though that it's a LOT more noticeable now than it ever was in 0.7 because it's way easier to hurt yourself with this current implementation of the electro.


Quote: (situational weapons don't really work when you don't have all the weapons)

That's kind of the point of having weapon pickups. They're a controllable asset on the map and not something that is simply given to players. As you obtain more weapons, you can become more versatile in combat and are able to be effective in more situations. Go pick up other weapons before you get into scenarios or adapt your playstyle to the weapons that you currently carry. If your electro combo won't work because you're moving too fast; get a different gun, slow down, or fire the primary until you're in a position where a combo makes sense.

Quote:I'm actually not against removing midair combos (perhaps a poll for post-0.8.1), but it would be silly to introduce a gameplay mechanic one release and remove it in the next one.
Instead, perhaps newtonian projectiles can remain off in just the XPM balance (as it was before), and also with a lowered combo radius in both.

It wouldn't be silly to me. If something needs changing, let it be changed regardless of how recent it was implemented. I'd still prefer it to be removed, but I'd be happy to test out different implementations to see if we can make it better Big Grin
[Image: 2823.png]
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#9
Could we maybe also get rid of the spread of those balls? Meaning them being spot on accurate and reliable on their own as well?

Same I could request out of Hagar primary too, it's annoying how luck based it is in mid/long range.
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#10
#endprimaryhagarspread
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#11
(05-01-2015, 06:41 PM)SPLAT Wrote: #endprimaryhagarspread
also
#speedItUp
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#12
^Fire rate or projectile speed? Tongue
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#13
I feel I need to apologize for my overly negative tone in my post, I hope the devs can see the criticism in it even if it's come off as it did. For a not-so-active end user who is not on IRC this change really does come up as a surprise, something I would probably expect to be only on git servers not in a release.
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#14
I love Newtonian style projectiles!

(05-01-2015, 03:56 PM)machine! Wrote: Even if mid-air combos will be easier, it totally destroys the regular usage of electro.

Before you could spam a few electro balls then shoot off the primary and they would hit at a specific spot, but now you have to waits for the balls to land then shoot the primary: this dramatically change the weapon. This is not just a balance change it's a totally new gun good and bad in totally other scenarios.

I tested it with Mirio and we arrived at g_balance_electro_primary_midaircombo_radius set to 50. It seemed like a good compromise even though it was pretty hard (but doable!) to hit the bubbles in the air. I think it'd still be fine at 60-70. Before the investigation it was at 150. 100 is still too much IMO. Visually it's totally unintuitive.

Besides, the radius of combo explosion from *ground/wall* hit is way too high! Did it change too? Even if midair combos were hard again, you wouldn't really need to do them because you can hit ground like 5 meters away from bubbles and explode them in air anyway.

I suggest g_balance_electro_primary_midaircombo_radius 75 and lowering the ground impact range.

(05-01-2015, 03:56 PM)machine! Wrote: What was electro good for before?
...
[*]Longer range spam (less so with new crylink secondary ofc)
...

Newtonian style projectile actually makes it good at longer range again.

(05-01-2015, 06:41 PM)SPLAT Wrote: #endprimaryhagarspread
Where is my "Like" button?
[Image: OYvkngZ.png] I'm woky on IRC.
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#15
After reading all the replies here and getting some feedback from duelers, I'm considering these values for master:

Default balance:
g_projectiles_newton_style 2
g_balance_electro_primary_midaircombo_radius 100

XPM balance:
g_projectiles_newton_style 0
g_balance_electro_primary_midaircombo_radius 80


The XPM options will be updated on the Paris duel server for testing, while the others will still use the casual options.
[Image: 230.png]
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#16
At least historically (yes, it's even a while since then), I think the XPM settings disabled Newtonian projectile physics in order to allow trick jumps with projectiles at high speeds in the race game modes.

It probably doesn't make a lot of sense outside these game modes.
Links to my: SoundCloud and bandcamp accounts
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