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[Duel/FFA] Cucumber

#1
Hello,

Here's the map I've been working on for the Duel Mapping Contest 2015.

EDIT: the map is finished now Smile

Special thanks go to the guys who played previous beta versions and for their feedback! Wink
And thanks packer for the warpzone sound! (it's the same sound as in Bromine).

Current version is CUCUMBER_V3R1 : https://www.dropbox.com/s/usdos9x3hummss...1.pk3?dl=1

Some screenshots :
[Image: 1459443227.jpg] - [Image: 1459443529.jpg] - [Image: 1459443554.jpg]
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#2
Size is indeed bit too big for duel, some unnecessary one way corridors (eg. mortar room). Size of the corridors, doors and height of ceiling is fine, there's just way too many rooms. Looks like a potential +back/hide-N-seek jerk fest and I see it playing better in FFA/TDM than Duel. The map might feel smaller after I'm more familiar with it though, I first thought Silentsiege was huge too, but it got a lot smaller in my mental map after practice.

I would replace the warpzone with a regular teleporter, it's kind of OP to be able to control a straight line of fire between megaHP and 100 armor rooms.

No words required here:
[Image: P6959QU.png?1]
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#3
Saw Mirio and Gatts play it a couple times Spike, it looks cool! Thanks for your submission
[Image: 38443.png]
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#4
(07-04-2015, 12:11 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: I would replace the warpzone with a regular teleporter, it's kind of OP to be able to control a straight line of fire between megaHP and 100 armor rooms.

The warpzone also offers some chances to deal damage from the distance when the player in control moves to one mega.
For example the in control takes Mega Armor, you might even knock him into void from the distance (through warpzone).
So in that kind of regard I think a teleporter would be more OP, because the way is still the same.

I will upload this overtime match later. http://stats.xonotic.org/game/490007
[Image: 21.png]
IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
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#5
(07-04-2015, 01:11 PM)Mirio Wrote: The warpzone also offers some chances to deal damage from the distance when the player in control moves to one mega.
For example the in control takes Mega Armor, you might even knock him into void from the distance (through warpzone).
Yes, well that's kind of what I meant with the OP. Enforcing sneaky come backs like that is not really the way to go. The one going for the armor is usually the player in control/better position and it should not be THAT risky for the player who played it right, imo. Warpzones are also pretty inconsistent in fairness as their visibility can vary depending on config as well. Some people see them blurred, some people see green grids, some see solid walls and some see through crystal clear, which is why I don't like them being key factors in map layouts.
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#6
Floor width of 192 is allready too much for a catwalk, 320 or 360 is overscale. Try using 192 for wide corridors and 160 or even less for catwalks and narrow doorways. The height of the most areas seems good, while others not (too high). It might become interesting when you add some areas with very low ceiling (splash damage or granade bouncing) For a scale reference I strongly recommend :

Warfare : http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...ht=warfare
Fuse
Stormkeep

I know you are a pro player and you know those maps by heart but its worth to launch them localy and look at them not only as a player but also as a designer. I won't say more as you are my potential competition Smile

I like the planks outside!

Edit:
One more thing: I noticed some 'paths' you made have difficult turns while other seem like easy 'shortcuts' Mabye changing positions of some doorways would fix the problem?
Another problem:
[Image: line-of-death.jpg]
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#7
I realize it might be late for your map (being that far in development), but here's some insight I think might be helpful if you or anybody else make other duel maps in the future. I did mention about it slightly on the pickup server earlier yesterday, but assuming you missed it and others care I'll elaborate on what I meant.

The problem most unpopular duel maps in Xonotic have is the approach the mappers takes on building up the layout. Below I have two generalizing examples where different coloured blocks represent different rooms/areas and gray blocks represent corridors/connections in between.

Example 1.
Stormkeep, Crystalcave, Pluvial, Facility123 and our newest arrival; Cucumber looks a little bit like this:
[Image: dBuGdFz.jpg]

The problem with this is that rooms and sometimes entire segments of the map become isolated from other parts of the map. This is not in any way a problem in FFA/TDM, but in Duel it kind of is. Not only it makes item control more sloppy, but finding your enemies in between item cycling is that much more of a chore and you're most of the time left with no other choice than sacrifice a timing on an item to chase down your opponent. There's hardly any depth or vertical action in arenas like this and the flow of the map is essentially just running in circles. If you can run around a map in a circle without sharp enough turns or vertical obstacles that force you to sacrifice horizontal speed, if you pick up an item and run to the other side of the map and can't get back in time to pick it up again, then it's most likely because the map was built on a structure like this. The maps listed above are all good maps, but their 1on1 flow is suffering a little bit because of a structure like this. Stormkeep doesn't entirely fit this description because of it's easily chainable item routes and trap areas, but I personally dislike it for it's lack of vertical action which gives the map a pancake like feel. Stormcake... anyone?

Example 2.
Fuse, Aerowalk, Warfare, Downer and Final Rage looks more like this:
[Image: SXT0bY9.jpg]

All of these maps have 2 to 3 main areas/rooms, some of which often are partially/mostly merged with each other and rest of the layout is pretty much shortcut sections and connecting corridors which clumps it together into a shape similar to the representation above. There's a variety of routes you can take to different items and no part of the layout is wasted. There's both vertical and horizontal access in between different rooms which gives more variety in angles and positions you can take on your opponent. In maps like these, with experience, you're almost always aware of your opponent's location which makes the game flow fast, active and comprehensible. Also you don't always have to sacrifice an item for a chase or a frag spree for a spawning item, this is a problem I think a map like Silentsiege has for instance. Silentsiege has good connectivity between rooms, but the horizontal scale is so large that a lot of the times the items stay untouched for unnecessarily long durations. Tightly packed maps like Fuse and Final rage tend to feel small and sometimes too fast paced for some people's taste, my opinion in this regard is biased of course because I prefer maps that play fast and I am not a huge fan of +back in general either. However I sincerely believe that if more maps tried to be like this, there would be more duel maps that people cycle in their daily practice sessions and tournaments might end up having a wider variety in the map pool choices as well. Maps that I listed for this example have two things in common; 1. You always feel the presence of your opponent as if he is breathing to the back of your neck. 2. They're featured on almost every duel cup, which is not due to lack of maps, rather lack of compact duel maps that don't bore the players/spectators to death.
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#8
Thanks a lot for your feedbacks, Smilecythe & Justin (and others), here and on IRC!

I guess I won't have the time to fix all the flaws before the deadline Tongue
At least I'll fix the long line of sights and the difficult paths that Justin pointed out.
I also have an idea on how to remove both the Mortar corridor and the Hagar room, with a new connection between Machinegun room and Nex room.

About the Warpzone... Sorry Smilecythe, but I'll keep it ^^

Maybe I'll release the current layout as a TDM map later, considering how big it is Big Grin

Good luck with your map, Justin! I really liked Imprisoned from previous mapping contests Smile
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#9
+1 for such in-depth feedback Smileycythe.

I must admit though such designs are much harder to come up with than the former. Tongue And the former isn't necessarily bad in all cases (sk being the primary example Wink ), although I agree they work better for TDM in general.

Downloading the map now...
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#10
[Image: 21.png]
IRC (QuakeNet): #bot.xonotic | #xonotic.pickup | #xonotic | #xonotic.cup
Steam | Twitch.tv | YouTube
Movies: Mirification #1 | #2 | Mirificaption #1 | #3 | #4 | [BOT] Clan #3 | #5 | #6 | #7 | [BOT] Clan #4 | #8

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#11
Hi,

Here's an update, Cucumber_beta6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4199..._beta6.pk3

I changed the layout quite a lot Big Grin

The map is now smaller and probably more suited for duels.
There are less rooms, more connections, and I shrank some corridors a little bit (not as much as you suggested, Justin, it would have been too much work to re-size the whole map Confused )

I won't win the contest with this map but I'm happy I almost finished my first duel map Tongue

As usual, feedback is welcome, but I won't make other big layout changes since the deadline is really close now... time to work on the details.

See the first post for updated pics.
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#12
The map already looks a lot more compact! From a quick glance, mortar + nex and 100a in essentially the same space might be OP, one might easily dominate the map with controlling 50a and 100a and completely neglecting megaHP. However maps don't always have to be balanced perfectly to play well. Need to play test it definitely.

Also, the deadline is 1st august, you still have at least half a month Smile
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#13
One last beta before final version (deadline is very very close now Big Grin):

- Some resizing
- Updated weapon & item layout (50 armor and 50 health have a new location, as well as Mortar).
- More textures and more details.

Download link is on the first post.
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#14
I like the clean, no nonsense style of it. Contrary to Justin, i do like oversized layouts that allows "right now" movement to play out to its full rather than "pre planned movement". As far as gameplay go, i can't say much as i dont play much anymore; but if i did this feels like my kinda map =)
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#15
Thanks for your feedback tZork, I didn't really make an oversized layout on purpose, I guess I just prefer the "right now" kind of movement too Big Grin

Well, I think it's time for a final version.

I updated the download link in the first post, Cucumber_v1 is my final submission for the contest.

What's new: more details, item layout update, fixed some texture and brush issues.

The map can still be improved, but I ran out of time Undecided
I might release new versions after the contest though.

Thanks again for all the feedback & play-testing!
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#16
I like the map very much but I miss a texture on teleport - or is it just for me ??

[Image: xonoti10.jpg]

Greetz Su
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#17
Hi, actually this is the texture I put on the teleport >:D
Is it really that ugly? :<
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#18
(07-30-2015, 12:52 PM)SpiKe! Wrote: Is it really that ugly? :<

I hate it Tongue Rolleyes

GreetZ Su
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#19
Hi,

Here comes a new version, CUCUMBER_V2.
Download link updated in the first post.

What's new:

- Added bot waypoints (bots seem to be afraid of water, somehow Undecided )
- Added a Quad for DM / TDM games
- Moved a spawnpoint in Mortar room (easy spawn frags were possible through the warpzone)
- Added a few more details & improved lights a bit
- Brush cleanup
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#20
(07-30-2015, 12:52 PM)SpiKe! Wrote: Hi, actually this is the texture I put on the teleport >Big Grin
Is it really that ugly? :<
It gives the universal impression of "missing texture". Personally prefer teleporters that ooze lights Tongue
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#21
Hello,

I updated the first post with a new release, CUCUMBER_V3.

What's new:

- More trims.
- Better windows appearance (it should be easier to shoot grenades/rockets through the window in front of the planks).
- More environment details (lights, fans, etc.)
- Brush cleanup & PK3 cleanup.

Enjoy!
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#22
Jumped around a bit, it's looking better in v3, but now I think you need to work on some small things such as consistency, and atmosphere.

So far though, I have some thoughts:
  • Change the ramps at mortar-water to be steps, it's frustrating to be down in that area considering how cramped it is with all those pillars, and having those awful ramps is even more frustrating. They're not smooth in terms of flow. Make them steps and no one will have an issue with them.
  • Hex tile clipping, I've bumped (and even deadstopped) on these tiles. Clip 'em off properly or you'll be hearing from my lawyer.
  • Lots of boxes, I almost forgot I was playing Xonotic and attempted to plant the bomb in a few places. Some boxes are just redundant and serve no purpose but to fill spaces (you can do better, I believe in you), others do have a purpose but aren't very pretty.
  • The exit of the mortar/mh tele isn't clear. The visual communication isn't there. I see what you did, and it's not very good... A tile on the floor is useless. You won't be able to see it from over where MH stands, and that's where everyone is going to be partying at.
    edit: Take a look at Fuse. Notice how it uses little insets into the wall to display the exit of a one-way tele? Why not try something like that out. Remember, these are just suggestions, don't do these things exactly as I say, at the end of the day it's your mep and you get to choose how your mop is mupped. And besides, it might not go entirely well with the rest of your map.

  • I feel like the MH room is very weird, the roof makes no sense to me, it's very open and I feel like there should be some kind of distracting yet beautiful architecture above. You can be creative with this bit, but a boring fix might also work (Think industrial/brutalist architecture).
  • One of your new fans in MH room is not rotating. I just thought I'd let you know before the police pull you over for it.
  • Unclip the windows so that people can stand in them, just not allowed to go through them. I don't understand the reasoning behind not allowing people to stand there. If it looks like a place that I can go to, then I should be able to go to it right? Even if it's just a simple ledge to stand on, there is no visual symbol that says "You cannot stand here" in these windows, unlike the fans that have sharp rotating blades.
  • There is also a big black/grey outset in the middle room on the upper level just between mortar room and devestator that has a bit of space up top that also looks like you can stand on it, but you can't. Perhaps add a tiny little slope on top of it so that it comes out of the wall more naturally and it looks like you can't stand on it. Visual communication etc etc.
  • I also feel like the walls in the MH room are bland. Try some more texturing on those parts. Flesh them out. Pillars, insets, outsets, pipes, slopes, posters, broken tiles, etc.
  • In terms of atmosphere, the lighting in the map is one colour throughout. It's like eating the same meal, 3 times a day, 21 times a week. You get sick of it, it's boring, it's lost it's taste, you can't tell good from bad. Add some more colours! Also, monotone lighting throughout the map does not work very well for recognition. From distances, I could not tell if there was an entrance to a new room. Take a look at this image of a Roughinery remake, and you'll notice how the map uses lighting to present new paths, entrances, exits, etc. It makes the map look a helluva lot more interesting, in fact it makes it comparable to a painting, nice shit. I also feel like that some things such as a warpzone should have some kind of visual clue in telling the user that it is right there. Maps such as Fuse and Stormkeep, use a cyan glow to tell the player that the warpzone/teleporter is right there. It doesn't just have to be limited to teles, Stormkeep also uses a very light cyan for weapons. Remove lighting, add lighting, change the colour of lighting, change the effect of lighting. Use lighting to your advantage. Consider applying the same technique to your map and I think the results will be stunning. Also remember, you don't have to follow the same colour scheme as Stormkeep, Bromine uses orange for it's warpzones (although, it's not a very strong effect, and packer will feel my technicoloured wrath when I get a hold of him).
  • Controversial opinion: Add some fog? Doesn't hurt, and it can have pretty results, it exists for a reason: to make shit pretty. As a designer, your job should be to make shit pretty (and ofc to make it work). Just don't overdo it.
  • Where are we? What is keeping this building afloat in the sky? What magical knee-jerk reaction excuse explains why I look outside and there is nothing keeping this building locked into position? Are we stationary? Are we actually moving? Is this building falling down from the sky and it's taking a very long time to reach the earth of this mysterious fart-gassy looking planet? Add some detail outside, it doesn't have to be much, it just has to be there to support the building we're fighting in. Try some rocks.

I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I've enjoyed playing your map for a brief while. Now go home and get your fucking shinebox.

edit: i added some woerds
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#23
Thanks for your very detailed and useful feedback, Matuka! Big Grin

I'll work on some of the things you pointed out.
I have no idea about the ETA though, it will take some time.

I am aware that one fan is not rotating, I will call the maintenance team, they will probably just replace a blown fuse.
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#24
Bugfix release, Cucumber_v3r1:

- Fixed an issue with the warpzone (projectiles didn't cross the warpzone when you were standing very close to it).
- Added some clips.
- Enlarged the jump pad triggers.
- Make it possible to stand on the window :)

Download link is on the first post.
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#25
Thanks for the update. I updated it on BFG pickup.
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