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Improving current balance (aka FruitieX's balance)

#76
Well said nifrek
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#77
The thing is that a lot of people from the "pickup community" do not like most of the changes. The new balance has troubles and if you look now you will see that some of the things are right now being reverted to nexuiz or reconsidered in one way or the other. But the electro having a lightning gun primary was a good change. And from my point of view you guys just didn't give it much testing. So please, test it.
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#78
(02-09-2011, 08:18 PM)waterlaz Wrote: The thing is that a lot of people from the "pickup community" do not like most of the changes. The new balance has troubles and if you look now you will see that some of the things are right now being reverted to nexuiz or reconsidered in one way or the other. But the electro having a lightning gun primary was a good change. And from my point of view you guys just didn't give it much testing. So please, test it.

If ANY balances haven't been tested enough, it's mine and Samual's (mine especially, I've only seen it exec'd once online and that was an outdated version and haven't gotten much if any feedback) balances. Believe it or not, I actually TRIED TO LIKE THE CURRENT BALANCE. I actually went as far as isolating myself from action games for a week straight and spent six hours non-stop playing with balanceFruit. I actually devoted time to EACH WEAPON as well. Having an actual lightning gun isn't a bad idea, but replacing the electro primary is. I actually like the idea of the machinegun being turned into a lightning (or thermite so that it can still consume bullets instead of plasma) gun as I think that would make the gameplay more interesting. I won't go into too much detail on this thread, because I've explained/spammed it like A GAZILLION TIMES all over this forum. Both the physics and balance files ruin an otherwise great game and just as Samual already said, it's keeping almost the entire North American crowd (ask around in-game if you don't believe me) from jumping from Nexuiz.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


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#79
(02-09-2011, 08:18 PM)waterlaz Wrote: The thing is that a lot of people from the "pickup community" do not like most of the changes. The new balance has troubles and if you look now you will see that some of the things are right now being reverted to nexuiz or reconsidered in one way or the other. But the electro having a lightning gun primary was a good change. And from my point of view you guys just didn't give it much testing. So please, test it.
I gave it plenty of testing before, but well it doesn't work in a good way really. It should be shorter range, and unfortunately that ruins the electro combo. So the best solution is, move the lg to another weapon so you can keep the combo good at midrange while still also having the LG everyone wants. As for my own testing, I just had about 25 players (in total 25, at-once average about 8-10) on my server testing my balance earlier in CTF. It works quite well, though there are some things I need to tweak.. e.g. I think the crylink was a bit too strong, and maybe also the electro a little too. But it really depends on the situation anyway, and the map was just favoring my weapon - Who knows, one thing I did notice though is that maps really need to have more variety in the weapons imo... Seems like they all just want to keep on using the same weapons.

BTW, the argument that the electro is useless is just weird to me. This is a short video of one small example of why that's just nonsense Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Qn2qfmFq4 (Note, this was one of the last games of the night... so it had died down a little at this point.)


Anyway about the testing: At least I finally got the NA community to poke its head out a little, for the most part I think people liked what they saw. Everyone kept asking "Is this really default physics?" for some reason, as if they magically were changed to something they like more. Oh, I noticed a few bugs too. So overall a productive night Tongue
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#80
(02-09-2011, 08:39 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: If ANY balances haven't been tested enough, it's mine and Samual's (mine especially, I've only seen it exec'd once online and that was an outdated version and haven't gotten much if any feedback) balances. Believe it or not, I actually TRIED TO LIKE THE CURRENT BALANCE. I actually went as far as isolating myself from action games for a week straight and spent six hours non-stop playing with balanceFruit. I actually devoted time to EACH WEAPON as well. Having an actual lightning gun isn't a bad idea, but replacing the electro primary is. I actually like the idea of the machinegun being turned into a lightning (or thermite so that it can still consume bullets instead of plasma) gun as I think that would make the gameplay more interesting. I won't go into too much detail on this thread, because I've explained/spammed it like A GAZILLION TIMES all over this forum. Both the physics and balance files ruin an otherwise great game and just as Samual already said, it's keeping almost the entire North American crowd (ask around in-game if you don't believe me) from jumping from Nexuiz.

Lee_Stricklin, have you ever considered that your balance did not get much resonance because of the aggressive way you are promoting it? I value your enthusiam and appreciate your love for this game, but I fear the way you are pushing your ideas is too aggressive, so people have a hard time opening themselves towards your ideas. From your point of view I can understand your frustration, but think about what I wrote, I believe this kind of thing has been said to you already and I am pretty certain it's at least part of why your balance proposals are pretty much ignored.

If that's not the reason, the only alternative I see would be that your balance proposal indeed isn't considered good for this game.

ANYHOW as I mentioned before, I'd suggest not to get overly excited about the balance changes, as far as I am concerned I am all fine if we have a reasonably powerful laser for moving in more than 2 dimensions (I come from Descent, you know) and if I can move around fast and push some people into void. I am confident whatever the changes will be we will get it sorted out if everybody provides feedback in a rational way and will eventually reach a balance that is acceptable to most of the community members.

Oh, and I would appreciate if we could move the most current balance proposals to popular public servers so that the current balance gets involuntarily tested by more players.
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#81
(02-09-2011, 08:39 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Both the physics and balance files ruin an otherwise great game

Lies. You don't like != Everyone doesn't like it.

(02-10-2011, 01:34 AM)Samual Wrote: Anyway about the testing: At least I finally got the NA community to poke its head out a little, for the most part I think people liked what they saw. Everyone kept asking "Is this really default physics?" for some reason, as if they magically were changed to something they like more. Oh, I noticed a few bugs too. So overall a productive night Tongue

I haz solution!! Big Grin NA server use Samual balance and EU server use default/shell balance and a lot of people are happy. Shy
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#82
(02-10-2011, 09:01 AM)Mirio Wrote:
(02-09-2011, 08:39 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Both the physics and balance files ruin an otherwise great game

Lies. You don't like != Everyone doesn't like it.

(02-10-2011, 01:34 AM)Samual Wrote: Anyway about the testing: At least I finally got the NA community to poke its head out a little, for the most part I think people liked what they saw. Everyone kept asking "Is this really default physics?" for some reason, as if they magically were changed to something they like more. Oh, I noticed a few bugs too. So overall a productive night Tongue

I haz solution!! Big Grin NA server use Samual balance and EU server use default/shell balance. Shy


YAY! SPLIT COMMUNITY!

@ Halogene

I thought about that and have actually backed down from being aggressive about it, only bumping the thread when updates are made, but now I'm under the impression that save maybe early on, most of the cult following behind Fruitiex's config flat out won't even give it a chance and will ditch it less than 10 minutes into a game. I also notice that any and all threads related to it get immediately 1 star'd including a thread showing a video I made just screwing around on Box Gardens. The only person I know of that actually gave it testing time was Samual and I was able to use some of his feedback to improve it.
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#83
(02-10-2011, 09:01 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: YAY! SPLIT COMMUNITY!

How are they connected? Wink
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#84
(02-10-2011, 09:06 AM)Mirio Wrote:
(02-10-2011, 09:01 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: YAY! SPLIT COMMUNITY!

How are they connected? Wink

lol Good question...
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#85
These are the goals I had:
Bring back the gameplay that got me hooked in the first place and evolve it forward

These are the rules I went by:
Do NOT break maps, preserve the fast-paced and skill-based nature of the game, evolve the balance, DO NOT MAKE IT ALIEN TO VETERAN PLAYERS but still make it accessible to a new crowd, create a rock/paper/scissors balance with any and all similar weapons requiring a different skill set or having a different feel.

A welcomed additions that came accidentally:
Bigger focus on a wider variety of movements (run, dodge, bunnyhop, go airborne, etc. it depends on the situation which one is best) rather than just trying to maintain speed like in Warsow. Also some of the animation quirks are harder to notice due to the movement and speed.

How I did this:
Took a step back and grabbed 2.4.2's (to most on North America, this was the best version) balance and got to work on a physics file that would work as best as I could possibly get it to work with it, after that I started tweaking the balance to work well with the physics, then the physics with the balance, etc. eventually coming up with something that actually resembled Deathmatch Classic at one point. I ran out of time to work on it and test the game as Fruitiex started work on his files and figured that the configs were in better hands. Unfortunately I was wrong. Later on though I saw the potential in the work that Fruitiex has been doing (which has been quite a bit from what I've seen) and realized that his physics would be more accessible (mine had a problem of people running into walls the few tests it got) and work very well with the balance with a few tweaks. A lot of other Fruitiex's work found it's way into my balance as well either to solve a problem (ammo consumption on nex for example), compliment the gameplay (the idea of caps when implemented right will encourage more movement through maps), or put a twist on something that didn't really have a direction.
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#86
(02-10-2011, 01:34 AM)Samual Wrote: BTW, the argument that the electro is useless is just weird to me. This is a short video of one small example of why that's just nonsense Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Qn2qfmFq4 (Note, this was one of the last games of the night... so it had died down a little at this point.)

So then as that video shows, the electro IS useful against noob-turrets, AFKs, chatters and other stationary targets. Tongue

But against people who are actually playing the game. . .
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#87
Wtf are you stupid? This is nifrek , one of the best, getting fragged there while he goes for the flag. *rolls eyes*
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#88
@ Flying Steel:

Son, you just made me open my ammo folder.
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#89
(02-11-2011, 02:11 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: @ Flying Steel:

Son, you just made me open my ammo folder.
. . .

Your ammo is certainly of high caliber.

(02-11-2011, 01:58 PM)Mirio Wrote: Wtf are you stupid? This is nifrek , one of the best, getting fragged there while he goes for the flag. *rolls eyes*

There is no need to get emotional and insulting, if that is your intent.

Maybe it's all the shaders (motion blur, etc.), but I didn't really see that much useful information from that video. Neither do I know or care about the accomplishments of nifrek; I was just looking at the action.

Basically to me, it *looked* like the target was not being that evasive of the electro secondary. So it doesn't seem to prove much, since almost any weapon can be effective against a target that is not paying attention to it.

Thus I don't yet see reason to disagree with what fruitiex/waterlaz summarized earlier:

(02-07-2011, 03:10 PM)FruitieX Wrote: And what's the damn point with the electro combo anyway? As waterlaz highlighted it's not useful against someone who isn't playing the game for the first time.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#90
I'm out of potato chips... darn it
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#91
(02-11-2011, 02:37 PM)GreEn`mArine Wrote: I'm out of potato chips... darn it
A Green Marine appears out of nowhere :OOOOOO

Anyway: "Basically to me, it *looked* like the target was not being that evasive of the electro secondary. So it doesn't seem to prove much, since almost any weapon can be effective against a target that is not paying attention to it."

You're an idiot. nifrek had the flag, he was moving as fast as he could to capture it -- so I raced to the enemy base too. I wouldn't have made it fast enough, so I had to use the electro and spam the enemy flag to kill him. Then once I got the flag, it was again a race just as before, but this time I was the one with the flag and he was the one racing to stop me. Again he got there first, so I used the electro on my own flag and killed him just as he got the flag/started running away.

So again you're an idiot: He was moving extremely fast and yet I still got him. I proved the very point you claim is wrong... The electro IS useful against good/fast players.
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#92
(02-11-2011, 02:35 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(02-11-2011, 01:58 PM)Mirio Wrote: Wtf are you stupid? This is nifrek , one of the best, getting fragged there while he goes for the flag. *rolls eyes*
There is no need to get emotional and insulting, if that is your intent.

You can read his name clearly without HD and calling such a guy a "noob-turret etc." is just stupid. Samual pointed out the rest. At 2nd frag he comes from the left side so actually you can't see what comes from the right side (of your pov).
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#93
(02-11-2011, 03:32 PM)Samual Wrote: You're an idiot.

. . .

So again you're an idiot: He was moving extremely fast and yet I still got him. I proved the very point you claim is wrong... The electro IS useful against good/fast players.

What you have shown in that video is that the electro is good against very predictable movement.

Halogene and myself already debated this some pages ago-- that yes, the flag is a kind of choke point, but it's just one (well, two, but you only care about one in this case.) That's kind of a limited application for the electro on it's own.

But whatever, I don't care, things you won't consider won't happen in your balance.

Also you're an impulsive fool; maybe you should adopt/merge with lee_stricklin's balance-- I'm sure you'll make a great team working together. Tongue


@Mirio

So I didn't see his name on the new-new-new interface, who cares? I wasn't trying to insult him personally. Besides, he called me a troll earlier when that clearly wasn't the case, so. . . we're even then maybe?

There's certainly been heated balance discussions before but, some of you folks are starting to sound more like the tremulous community than the old nexuiz one. Undecided
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#94
(02-11-2011, 04:40 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: ...
The electro works perfectly well also in rooms and corridors, and even in open areas if you know how to use it. And yes, I mean against fast moving/good players. Do you want me to do a montage of electro kills? Because they're really not difficult at all with my balance... Have you even tried the electro in my balance? Probably not. (server is the MiT balance testing server)

Actually scratch that - I'm done arguing with/responding to you, you have nothing good to contribute (All you've said is "no no no this sucks", never anything about how to actually fix it) and I think you either are trolling or at least fundamentally wrong/ignorant on several things. And your nonsense about the electro is just getting silly...

BTW, I dislike Lee's balance too. It's basically exactly like Nexuiz Tongue So it's "okay" but I wouldn't prefer it.
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#95
Electro combos are harder than ever under my balance and yet they're STILL DOABLE. Also I used 2.4.2 as a base to build my balance off of, so it's a bit more crazy than others. Especially with what I've done to the movement (it's not just about maintaining speed, but knowing what movement type fits the situation).
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#96
(02-11-2011, 05:26 PM)Samual Wrote: Because they're really not difficult at all with my balance... Have you even tried the electro in my balance? Probably not. (server is the MiT balance testing server)

Dude, you know I've been to your server before, you've seen me there several times already! Granted, that was before fruitiex_balance took over, but you've only been back on top for a little while now.

Plus last time I was at your server, it would disconnect me every 5 seconds and you said something to the effect of you didn't know what the issue was, IIRC.

Quote:Actually scratch that - I'm done arguing with/responding to you, you have nothing good to contribute (All you've said is "no no no this sucks", never anything about how to actually fix it)

That's bullshit. I spelled out all my reasons, gave and supported other people's suggestions on how to fix it, all earlier in this very thread, but you either ignored them or only started reading a page or two ago.

You didn't read or consider any of the reasonable stuff myself or some of the others said, obviously, and instead went right into blowing it off as nonsense and then firing off insults. You could learn some things from FruitieX, namely patience.

Anyway, I'm burnt out arguing with you too. . .
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#97
I have to admit that I am fast player and today I had been stoped and killed many times by guys with electro. Its freaky powerfull weapon (especially in corridors) on maps like Mikectf. Even more usefull then mortar.
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#98
(02-07-2011, 05:41 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(02-07-2011, 02:57 PM)nowego4 Wrote: I'm probably going to get burnt for saying this, but we could but Bolt on secondary and keep Shaft on primary.

Edit: now that I think about it, this^^ idea isn't so bad because we have the mine layer now.

+1000

This is a very fitting idea in it's own right, but the new mine layer is 'icing on the cake'. The mine layer should become the specialized defensive weapon the electro has tried to be, while the electro can become a unique and generally useful option with shaft and bolt.

THIS.

Is so true.
(02-10-2011, 09:01 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: YAY! SPLIT COMMUNITY!

So you mean the EU and NA communities aren't already split? Tongue

Edit: Oh, someone already commented on this
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#99
Offtopic: What we need is a server in Azores or Greenland for a friendly NA vs EU CTF : ) . I remember a guy from FIji playing consistently in EU servers e.g Tongue
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(02-12-2011, 04:35 AM)FruitieX Wrote:
(02-07-2011, 05:41 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(02-07-2011, 02:57 PM)nowego4 Wrote: I'm probably going to get burnt for saying this, but we could but Bolt on secondary and keep Shaft on primary.

Edit: now that I think about it, this^^ idea isn't so bad because we have the mine layer now.

+1000

This is a very fitting idea in it's own right, but the new mine layer is 'icing on the cake'. The mine layer should become the specialized defensive weapon the electro has tried to be, while the electro can become a unique and generally useful option with shaft and bolt.

THIS.

Is so true.
Er, so you want to remove the original electro secondary and combo? The bolt alone would never be used compared to the LG, and the LG already is getting its own weapon. Not to mention that the effect for the bolt and the LG are really different... Besides, the minelayer fills a different role than the electro secondary - Minelayer especially has a much longer lifetime and is much more useful for setting traps, whereas the electro is mainly useful in actual combat (The lifetime of the projectile is very very low) - Also if you think the minelayer REALLY made the electro combo obsolete, then maybe you should re-examine how those weapons really work Tongue Besides, minelayer ripped off the mortar more than anything. Should we also remove the mortar primary because of this? The answer is no.

Basically, not only do I think that idea for the electro is bad, I totally reject it. And I find it hilarious how FruitieX supports it...........


@booo: Sure I suppose, maybe post something in tournaments or community contests and see if we can organize it.


BTW, it seems that you guys updated the animtimes/switch delays in default balance. -- Very happy with this, feels much better. Now just fix the health pickups (so that they're more consistent, no more individual limits upon health but just one global limit) and the spamlink and the electro and the rocketlauncher and the sniperrifle secondary (make it zoom instead of reload) and the fall damage and the ammo pickups for some weapons.

There, that should be everything. no wait forgot something: The mortar arc is too high, you can't leave it going upwards so much like this -- it's going even further away from the crosshair. It CAN go higher than the crosshair, but not as much as it is now.

In case you missed it, the only ones i'm really serious about right now are the health pickups, the sniper rifle secondary and the mortar. Though... 2 bounces on the crylink is still a bit much Tongue And electro LG sucks Tongue And the RL doesn't need guiding Tongue And the fall damage is triggered from the speed of a snail Tongue And the ammo pickups are kinda broken for some weapons, like the hagar especially.
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