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[SUGGESTION] Ricocheting shaft for Arc Cannon

#1
[Image: image.png]

Had a random discussion with few people (they can reveal themselves if they want). And we ended up with an interesting idea for a distinctive feature for the upcoming Arc Cannon. What you guys think of a shaft that ricochets off of surfaces or should I say reflected like image out of a mirror? Should hitting people with a reflected shaft have advantages, like longer distance, additional damage? What limits should it have? Would it be fun? Discuss
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#2
Nope.
Do it yourself, or stop complaining.
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#3
Oh, I meant it to act like rockets. Hold firemode and it turns.

That was just more or less a rant though. Samual will make it good I hope and it gets adjusted well in testing.
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#4
(01-18-2014, 02:56 PM)Samual Wrote: Nope.
Affirmative.

(01-18-2014, 02:56 PM)Mirio Wrote: Oh, I meant it to act like rockets. Hold firemode and it turns.
I know, but I took the discussion further with other people Big Grin
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#5
Well, actually you can do it kinda with Mortar secondary or Crylink primary. Wink
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#6
Its unrealistic. Arcs cant reflect of surfaces. They can only.... erm arch?
[Image: 0_e8735_c58a251e_orig]
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#7
This as secondary firemode for the nexgun = awesome frags. The current secondary firemode is useless anyway.
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#8
Short answer: Nope.

Long answer: Still nope. Let me go into detail here so you can understand:

Regarding Arc reflection:
  1. WAYYYYYY too difficult to code, because the beam will be a curving beam (which also has to support warpzones, btw), like this: http://i.imgur.com/2jgZRoY.jpg
  2. There would be little to no value attributed from skill for this attack method, it is simply not controllable enough to be properly effective and skill based. It would be luck based.
  3. It doesn't make sense for this type of weapon ANYWAY.
  4. We've got the "reflection" situations covered plenty enough, no need for more overlap: Electro combo, Mortar secondary, Crylink primary. Additionally, we used to have precise reflective weapon modes (specifically like Hagar secondary) which clearly were shown to fall victim of #2, and thus were not used except as a crapshoot. (Which no, does not have any value... Hence why we replaced it on the Hagar.)
Regarding Vortex (formerly known as Nex):
  1. Issues #2, #3 and #4 for the Arc apply here as well.
  2. We've tried doing different secondaries on the Nex before, the overwhelming majority of people far preferred having zoom on secondary instead of requiring usage of a separate zoom button.
  3. It would look fucking retarded to have that attack be duplicated on i.e. long range maps for example, say you hit a surface on the other side of the map (over 2000qu away) and it bounces back to hit you for example, totally fucking retarded. If we added rules to make this look less retarded, that becomes EVEN MORE retarded with arbitrary and ambiguous rules that are hard to predict.
Do it yourself, or stop complaining.
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#9
(01-19-2014, 03:20 PM)Samual Wrote: WAYYYYYY too difficult to code, because the beam will be a curving beam (which also has to support warpzones, btw), like this: http://i.imgur.com/2jgZRoY.jpg

I don't see why you would put so many Y's in your WAY, it doesn't seem too hard unless I'm missing something important. But that's not your strongest point there against ricochet anyway.

(Side note: that's a lot of "retarded" in your post. Four too many I would say.)
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#10
(01-19-2014, 03:20 PM)Samual Wrote: WAYYYYYY too difficult to code, because the beam will be a curving beam (which also has to support warpzones, btw), like this: http://i.imgur.com/2jgZRoY.jpg

Is the curving beam for visual effect only? Or are you actually supposed to hit people like that?
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#11
(01-19-2014, 07:20 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: (Side note: that's a lot of "retarded" in your post. Four too many I would say.)
Indeed.

Apart from this, I think Samual is right (and also provided valid reasons beyond "it's fucking retarded"). For example it already now is difficult to predict the path of bouncing crylink particles if you hit anything but a flat wall. If the map has at least SOME structure, you'll end up with crylink particles going everywhere. Now imagine this with a constant fire arc cannon. You move the mouse a bit and ZINNNG ZANNNG BZRP you'll have the reflected beam go in twenty-five directions per second.

As for the reflecting nex beam, apart from being annoying most of the time as the reflection didn't go where you intended it to go, why would anyone need that? I could imagine in a 2d FPS an accurate reflection could add value, but with Xonotic having a lot of vertical action, you'll find only very limited situations where the nex beam reflection would actually be calculable and useful - especially since we try to avoid big flat surfaces for aesthetics and quality reasons. Additionally, proper depth perception is required for reliably hitting a target with the reflection beam, and depth perception is subject to the technical limitations of projecting a 3D scene onto a flat image on your monitor. This is why I believe that despite the fact the reflection is accurate and immediate, this would add more randomness and luck based frags to the game. While I, considering my fuzzy aim, might even profit from shifting the gameplay to more luck and less skill, I don't think this is the direction we should go.
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#12
Why not make it so it can bounce an infinite amount of times around the map?

That way the winner of a duel will be decided by who can +fire their cannon first and fill the map with lasers Tongue

Also on a more serious topic:

-Will this gun have a cvar to be able to turn off the curving? I hated that with passion in quake, and I hope I won't be stuck with a bendy rubberband that I can never know where I am aiming it at.
[Image: 12766.png]
Sucks at weapons
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#13
(01-20-2014, 08:10 AM)kammy Wrote: -Will this gun have a cvar to be able to turn off the curving? I hated that with passion in quake, and I hope I won't be stuck with a bendy rubberband that I can never know where I am aiming it at.

I bet this gonna be fun for you with high ping. Wink
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#14
(01-20-2014, 03:56 AM)Halogene Wrote: As for the reflecting nex beam, apart from being annoying most of the time as the reflection didn't go where you intended it to go, why would anyone need that? I could imagine in a 2d FPS an accurate reflection could add value, but with Xonotic having a lot of vertical action, you'll find only very limited situations where the nex beam reflection would actually be calculable and useful - especially since we try to avoid big flat surfaces for aesthetics and quality reasons. Additionally, proper depth perception is required for reliably hitting a target with the reflection beam, and depth perception is subject to the technical limitations of projecting a 3D scene onto a flat image on your monitor. This is why I believe that despite the fact the reflection is accurate and immediate, this would add more randomness and luck based frags to the game. While I, considering my fuzzy aim, might even profit from shifting the gameplay to more luck and less skill, I don't think this is the direction we should go.

If the Arc beam would deal extra damage after reflecting, you would find it useful in close combat, bounce it off the ground/wall/ceiling to a nearby walking enemy and you're already using the feature for your benefit. Even without extra damage, you would find using the Arc easier in close distances as nearby surfaces are in potential reflection course.

As for blind collision, some players know precisely where to shoot their secondary mortars while sometimes dealing damage to opponents as anticipated from their movement/location, this is due to experience and knowledge of the map. Even some spawn kills/half kills could be improvised with this feature. As you said, mortars and crylinks sometimes go ZINNNG ZANNNG and BOOM as well, but for some players it's a lethal technique. I'm sure this feature could be used as effectively as mortars and crylink if given a chance.

As for the nex reflection, it's a whole different thing. I'm quite good with this weapon, but I don't think I could ever learn to use it this way, based on that I have agree with your point regarding nex.
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#15
My point was the arc beam would change direction constantly if fired on complex surfaces. If we have a rubber like bending arc, how would that even be possible on the transition of one face to the other? It would have to change direction significantly within a split of a second. That would look AND feel odd to say the least.
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#16
(01-19-2014, 07:20 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 03:20 PM)Samual Wrote: WAYYYYYY too difficult to code, because the beam will be a curving beam (which also has to support warpzones, btw), like this: http://i.imgur.com/2jgZRoY.jpg

I don't see why you would put so many Y's in your WAY, it doesn't seem too hard unless I'm missing something important. But that's not your strongest point there against ricochet anyway.

(Side note: that's a lot of "retarded" in your post. Four too many I would say.)
There are exactly as many Y's in that "WAY" as there need to be. It is exactly that difficult to code.

No, the Arc bending is not just for visual effect, it is part of the mechanics of the gun. I also will not allow it to be disabled, or i'll personally kill the server owner who does. However, it will be done client side and properly antilagged, you should not notice any latency with it in the final version.

As for smilecythe... you're running on fumes mate. Give up.
Do it yourself, or stop complaining.
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#17
(01-20-2014, 10:26 AM)Halogene Wrote: My point was the arc beam would change direction constantly if fired on complex surfaces. It would have to change direction significantly within a split of a second. That would look AND feel odd to say the least.
I do understand what you're trying to say, but I don't really see it in that light. I'm sure someone somewhere thought Crylink looked and functioned odd when it was being implemented as well.

(01-20-2014, 10:30 AM)Samual Wrote: As for smilecythe... you're running on fumes mate. Give up.
Your game, your call. Whatever happens I'm probably playing it anyway.
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#18
(01-20-2014, 10:30 AM)Samual Wrote: As for smilecythe... you're running on fumes mate. Give up.

... just when I was happily acknowledging you were arguing by providing arguments... *sigh*

(01-20-2014, 12:36 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: Your game, your call.

BEEEP wrong!
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#19
(01-19-2014, 03:20 PM)Samual Wrote: Regarding Vortex (formerly known as Nex):
  1. Issues #2, #3 and #4 for the Arc apply here as well.
  2. We've tried doing different secondaries on the Nex before, the overwhelming majority of people far preferred having zoom on secondary instead of requiring usage of a separate zoom button.
  3. It would look fucking retarded to have that attack be duplicated on i.e. long range maps for example, say you hit a surface on the other side of the map (over 2000qu away) and it bounces back to hit you for example, totally fucking retarded. If we added rules to make this look less retarded, that becomes EVEN MORE retarded with arbitrary and ambiguous rules that are hard to predict.

I had more of a "big" energy boost with limited range in mind, as seen on the screenshot. But I understand your concerns. Plus, someone would have to invest the time and code it of course.

Halogene Wrote:This is why I believe that despite the fact the reflection is accurate and immediate, this would add more randomness and luck based frags to the game
If that was an argument for designing weapons in Xonotic we wouldn't get a wobble-wobble lightning gun either but a proper, stiff beam Wink
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#20
(01-23-2014, 05:39 AM)asyyy Wrote:
Halogene Wrote:This is why I believe that despite the fact the reflection is accurate and immediate, this would add more randomness and luck based frags to the game
If that was an argument for designing weapons in Xonotic we wouldn't get a wobble-wobble lightning gun either but a proper, stiff lg Wink

Hmm, right - but even with a wobble wobble lightning gun you get the feeling you actually were aiming at the target, especially if you have a fuzzy aim (if you can imagine how it feels to have a fuzzy aim). Ok, it depends a bit on how much it wobbles. But the frag would be still at least somewhat attributable to your aim and prediction. But if you just shoot with nex and the beam reflects on a pipe or map structure in a random direction hitting someone, you cannot really claim to have calculated the angle cleverly.

You could say the same applies to Crylink, but with the particles spreading and being a bunch of particles and doing splash damage the probability that at least SOME go into the direction you intended is higher. Also Mortar secondary has splash damage that you usually rely on plus you KNOW it detonates 0.5 secs after first bounce so you can mostly predict where the splash goes approximately.

The fact that nex/arc fires exactly one very thin beam without splash damage would require exact prediction/calculation where it goes in order to make it work at least a bit reliably.
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#21
It's a descent idea actually. On maps like hub it wouldn't be random at all I would imagine. The real argument against this is that we got two such weapons allready.

As for wobble LG, I've yet to use it before I comment. That said, the key argument (more skill required) is something it would benefit from. LG is soo OP in many other games.
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#22
I imagine that a wobble LG requires prediction/anticipation of the opponents movement and therefore requires skill. I wonder though how ping-dependant Samual's implementation will be. Is the beam swing calculated all client-side?
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#23
(01-31-2014, 12:28 PM)asyyy Wrote: I imagine that a wobble LG requires prediction/anticipation of the opponents movement and therefore requires skill. I wonder though how ping-dependant Samual's implementation will be. Is the beam swing calculated all client-side?

I imagine it being too hard to use for it to be fun at all. It's already hard enough to keep a steady pin on people with machinegun when you're being bounced all over the place by rockets and lasers, which in contrast are pretty damn easy to hit. It wouldn't be nearly as efficient in close range like in other games.
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#24
(01-31-2014, 08:17 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: It wouldn't be nearly as efficient in close range like in other games.
I guess that's the whole point.
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#25
Did not thought about that, it enforces mid-range use which sounds like a feature IMO.
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