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Space maps and the players on it...

#1
Space maps...
For some of us they are fun, others hate space maps. Do you like playing (public) ctf on space maps? I like it. And I like pushing my enemys off the plates with any weapon Smile
So... It happens that I play publicCtf, a space map. I push a player off the plate, what happens? He spactates, then rejoins! (?!?!?)
In my mind, thats no fine style, not nice, not fun. And boring.
What to do against that? Tongue

So, I posted it here, because I have no solution, otherwise I would have posted that maybe into Suggestion Forum.

Greets, Debugger
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#2
I guess we could have a way to prevent spectators to join the game for 20 seconds after they start spectating. Feel free to make this a feature request on the dev tracker.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#3
or a 5 sec delay to start spectating
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#4
That would annoy people who genuinely want to spectate, but would certainly catch deaths you're trying to avoid. But it can become annoying for anyone nevertheless :/
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#5
(09-22-2010, 12:13 PM)Debugger Wrote: So... It happens that I play publicCtf, a space map. I push a player off the plate, what happens? He spactates, then rejoins! (?!?!?)
In my mind, thats no fine style, not nice, not fun. And boring.
What to do against that? Tongue


You can make the discussion a bit faster with C&P:

http://www.alienTRAP.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5143

Tongue

PS: and I have written a small plugin that punishes players who do it by randomizing their movements for 5 seconds.
[Tue Aug 5 2008] [00:15:01] <Ronan`> RoKenn, you're an evil person Tongue
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#6
Yep, thats pretty annoying.

Maybe allow spectating only if you are death?
It would not be a problem to kill himself if you want to spectate.
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#7
Wow, the discussion in the alienTRAP forum thread is ridiclious.

If you think it is ok to have a way to die faster when pushed into the void, just remove the countdown from the command "kill". Maybe change it that way, that you cant spam the kill button (i.e. to get a better spawn in CTF).

If its not ok, just add something that you cant switch teams to fast (spectator is a team). That way you can instantly switch to team blue or team spectator when you are in the red team. But after switching to blue or spectator, you have to wait for 5 seconds to switch the team again.
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#8
I must say im one of those ppl who spectates then rejoins. I dnt like space maps but its not the falling off that annoys me. Its the fact that there is a suicide delay, which does not allow for me to kill myself. So on maps such as dance i get pushed off the map and it takes about 10seconds before i die. Its for these reasons that i do the spectate and rejoin.
Also on the au servers we have alot of ppl who camp on space maps which certainly takes the fun out of those maps.
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[0]'s achievements.

1st place @ Nexuiz 1vs1 AU tournament
1st place @ XA Season 1 3v3 CTF
1st place @ XA Bison Medley
1st place @ XA Duel Invitational
2nd place @ XA Season 2 3v3 CTF
1st place @ XA Medley Season 2

#zero.nexuiz
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#9
One way I could see this abuse stopped is to only allow go into spec mode once you're dead OR as soon as you're touching a surface. Don't know if such a check could be implemented of course Smile This half thought out idea would work as follows:
  • Pressing F3 as soon as you fall off into the void WILL put you into spec mode, but only the moment you've hit the Trigger Of Hurt (or a lost rocket/nexbeam/blahever kills you).
  • Pressing F3 when you're standing still WILL put you into spec mode immediately.
  • Pressing F3 when you're in mid air after a jump or shot WILL put you into spec mode as soon as you hit a surface.

Then going into speccing the 'intended way' will not be annoying (or to a minimal degree) yet abuse would probably stop. It would be similar to "You can not exit or reset your vehicle until it has come to a complete stop" seen in many racesims (yes, I used to be an avid simracer Tongue)

Now, the other option would be to get rid of the kill delay... :p
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
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#10
(09-23-2010, 03:40 AM)PinkRobot Wrote: One way I could see this abuse stopped is to only allow go into spec mode once you're dead OR as soon as you're touching a surface. Don't know if such a check could be implemented of course Smile This half thought out idea would work as follows:
  • Pressing F3 as soon as you fall off into the void WILL put you into spec mode, but only the moment you've hit the Trigger Of Hurt (or a lost rocket/nexbeam/blahever kills you).
  • Pressing F3 when you're standing still WILL put you into spec mode immediately.
  • Pressing F3 when you're in mid air after a jump or shot WILL put you into spec mode as soon as you hit a surface.

Then going into speccing the 'intended way' will not be annoying (or to a minimal degree) yet abuse would probably stop. It would be similar to "You can not exit or reset your vehicle until it has come to a complete stop" seen in many racesims (yes, I used to be an avid simracer Tongue)

I like this!

(09-23-2010, 03:40 AM)PinkRobot Wrote: Now, the other option would be to get rid of the kill delay... :p

Not really an option, as this makes abuse easier (taking points from your team, or spamming gibs for instance)
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#11
Jep, I like PinkRobots ideas too! Big Grin
These points are very good.
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#12
+1 to PinkRobots idea! Big Grin
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#13
i demand higher punishment for people who behave inappropriately! And effectful measures to prevent abuse! Also, i would like to ask for somebody to set up a DM server without those silly militant restrictions.

Btw, i love space maps.
4m038105 - Be the change.
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#14
Thumbs Up 
I completely agree! I used to to like space maps, that is, until campers or players avoiding their deaths by spectating sorta screwed it up for me Undecided. PinkRobot, your idea has just earned you another +1!
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#15
Hehe, cheers FriskyDingo, double figures for me Tongue

Although mine was a sexy idea (thanks for all the positive remarks), maybe we should look at the cause more than a possible cure of the symptoms. Otherwise you will keep moving on to the next abuse method. I think the root of the problem here is the kill delay.

People are abusing spec mode because of the kill delay. Getting rid of the kill delay is not the answer as MrBougo said. But could it be changed so that you CAN again suicide immediately, but only once per 5 or 10 seconds or so? Another attempt to selfkill within that timeframe will trigger the countdown (for whatever time still remains). Then spamming gibs or taking points from your team will not be that big of an issue (not enough for a true troll anyway) but you won't have to go into spec mode either, as long as you don't fall off TOO much (in which case, just play a little better :p). Am I missing something here?

If this were possible, I would much prefer this solution to the one I proposed about going spec mode. For most people it would be invisible too (who suicides more than once every 5 or 10 seconds anyway?) and there would be no weirdness concerning spec mode (which WOULD be noticed).

And as far as I can see, this would actually take AWAY some of the militant restrictions Mr. Mysterious 4m of Amoebios, which would tickle my PB heart to bits :p
"Yes, there was a spambot some time ago on these forums." - aa
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#16
Yeah i like the idea for the kill delay. I would like this to be implemented.
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[0]'s achievements.

1st place @ Nexuiz 1vs1 AU tournament
1st place @ XA Season 1 3v3 CTF
1st place @ XA Bison Medley
1st place @ XA Duel Invitational
2nd place @ XA Season 2 3v3 CTF
1st place @ XA Medley Season 2

#zero.nexuiz
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#17
If players could suicide immediately, there would be reason to suicide when attacked with low health. If you're likely to die anyway, you're better off doing so sooner and getting back to fragging faster. Frankly even with the 5 second delay it's not unheard of for situations to occur where it's a tactical advantage to suicide. It's just not common enough for anybody to think it needed to be addressed. There are also other annoyances related to this issue. Even disconnecting when about to be killed happens from time to time. Rather than a bunch of ad-hoc rules in response to each annoyance, I think a single comprehensive solution is needed for any time a player leaves the field without dieing.

It just so happens I have such a solution Smile

I propose that whenever a player is removed from the field by an administrative function (spectate, change teams, kill, disconnect, or even kick/ban) The effect for the player should always be immediate, but he should leave in his place a copy of his player model with the same health/armor he had, which takes 5 seconds* to fade to transparent and disappear. During that time it may be shot or killed by a trigger_hurt like any player, and if it dies, the death is counted as being that of the player, and credited to the killer as usual. Players should also be prevented from respawning whenever they have one of these stand-ins still living on their team.

So if you switch to another team, the switch and respawn should both be immediate (the current 5 second delay for this is really dumb and counterproductive) but if you switch back, you can't respawn until the stand-in you left behind has either died or faded away. Same with spectating, the switch is immediate, but if you switch back, you have to wait to respawn. And through all of it nobody is ever robbed of their frag.

*the choice of 5 second delay used now is likely a compromise to avoid making players wait too long when they're not abusing the system. Since this method wouldn't make players wait when not doing something odd like switching back and forth, the time limit can be extended to whatever is appropriate to prevent abuse. 10 seconds should be more than sufficient though.
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#18
I like PinkRobot's idea, but I'm guessing it'd be rather difficult to code. Then again, I'm still quite a newb at coding! Big Grin

I'm agree with having a short spectating delay (maybe 3 seconds instead of 5?) because of its simplicity, and I don't see how it can get particularly annoying. Any 3+ second drop is far too big, right?
[Image: 370.png] AKA [~] John Smith on Nexuiz
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