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[SUGGESTION] Weapons function

(05-21-2010, 08:17 AM)killgenerals Wrote: On Greatwall you will not be able to rush in easily without a team. It just isn't possible to get in and out there solemnly in a balanced game. It is just possible if you are superior.

It's only because of hitscan weapons that greatwall maps could ever be called defensively favorable (same thing for facing). And making hitscan weapons the focus of the game is detracting from what makes Xonotic unique much more so than making the laser a less extreme movement method (if that's a detraction at all, I say not).

Projectile weapons are where the real flavor and skill of Xonotic are, they should have at least an equal place, otherwise you might as well play urban terror.

Plus why does scoring in CTF has to be as fast as possible? Just because movement in general and DM are fast, doesn't mean that scoring in CTF has to be "fast" at the expense of balance and skill-focused gameplay.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

(05-21-2010, 10:57 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: It's only because of hitscan weapons that greatwall maps could ever be called defensively favorable (same thing for facing). And making hitscan weapons the focus of the game is detracting from what makes Xonotic unique much more so than making the laser a less extreme movement method (if that's a detraction at all, I say not).
There's is a key mistake in your thoughts. Some (perhaps badly designed) CTF maps =/= Nexuiz/Xonotic. The point is that the current balance works well for all modes and good maps, especially the DM maps which were the core of the first Nexuiz developments. There you can both use hitscan and projectile weapons, depending on the situation, and both are necessary. If you would change the weapon balance to weaken hitscan weapons now, you would mess up the whole gameplay of most of the other modes and maps.

(05-21-2010, 10:57 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: It's only because of hitscan weapons that greatwall maps could ever be called defensively favorable (same thing for facing).
Open maps tending to be maps for hitscan weapons, which means other weapons, like the RL or mortar arent useless. greatwall is a open map so many player use hitscan weapons, but there are people who can use weapons with splashdamage.

(05-21-2010, 10:57 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: And making hitscan weapons the focus of the game is detracting from what makes Xonotic unique much more so than making the laser a less extreme movement method (if that's a detraction at all, I say not).
putting the focus on a weapon is up to a mapper. they can decided, should this weapon apper on a map or not. You can make open maps without a hitscan weapon but would they be playable. The right itemplacement affects a map much more then some setting.

(05-21-2010, 10:57 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: Projectile weapons are where the real flavor and skill of Xonotic are, they should have at least an equal place, otherwise you might as well play urban terror.
focusing on projectile weapons would make the gameplay dull. you just need to aim in the direction. when there are no real differences between the weapons. what sense would it make to have different weapons? Xonotic isnt even in a alpha status, so at the moment it would be useless to say this feature is going to make the style of xonotic.


(05-21-2010, 10:57 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: Plus why does scoring in CTF has to be as fast as possible? Just because movement in general and DM are fast, doesn't mean that scoring in CTF has to be "fast" at the expense of balance and skill-focused gameplay.
you have get as fast as possible to your base, because you are mostly under attack and a direct hit with a shoutgun could be your last one. There is always someone who follows you and shoot at you and if your hp is low. you just want to capture as fast as possible. When you are playing non public matches the condtions for the flagcarrier are even worse, because first you have to fight your way through a defender and then you have to deal with 2-3 guys, who are following you and there is just one who supports you.

(05-21-2010, 11:46 AM)Diomedes Wrote: There's is a key mistake in your thoughts. Some (perhaps badly designed) CTF maps =/= Nexuiz/Xonotic.

Umm. . . those aren't my thoughts. I never said greatwall and facing worlds were good maps, neither did I bring them up.

Quote:The point is that the current balance works well for all modes and good maps, especially the DM maps which were the core of the first Nexuiz developments.

We're talking about CTF, not DM. There is no consensus on which CTF maps are the "good" ones. There's only like 5 official CTF maps, with eggnbacon and bloodprisonctf among them.

Quote:There you can both use hitscan and projectile weapons, depending on the situation, and both are necessary.

Only if the maps have many sharply winding tunnels with low ceilings. That's a very specific kind of design and one not appreciated by most CTF players, because too much of it confuses teamwork and planning.

Quote:If you would change the weapon balance to weaken hitscan weapons now, you would mess up the whole gameplay of most of the other modes and maps.

I never said I wanted to weaken hitscan weapons, I said I wanted to weaken the ability of players to laser jump all the time.

Somewhat lower moving targets that are close to the ground (IOW those who aren't laser jumping) make projectile weapons more effective. Fast moving high altitude targets can only reliably be intercepted by hitscan weapons, which throws balance strongly in their favor (especially since projectile weapons aren't that much more effective than them in ground situations either).
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

(05-21-2010, 12:17 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Umm. . . those aren't my thoughts. I never said greatwall and facing worlds were good maps, neither did I bring them up.
I didn't say that, I said that some CTF maps are not important for the whole Xonotic.

Quote:We're talking about CTF, not DM. There is no consensus on which CTF maps are the "good" ones. There's only like 5 official CTF maps, with eggnbacon and bloodprisonctf among them.
Yes, but changes always affect the whole Xonotic. I only spoke about good maps concerning the weapon balance, and yes, there are obviously good and bad maps in this case.

Quote:Only if the maps have many sharply winding tunnels with low ceilings. That's a very specific kind of design and one not appreciated by most CTF players, because too much of it confuses teamwork and planning.
No! Your "specific kind of design" is actually every map that isn't more or less completely open. And your second sentence has to be a joke. How do you know what most CTF players appreciate? Most CTF players play on public servers and they care a fuck about teamwork and planning. Ever played on a public server? I have played CTF for years, public and private matches, and I can tell you that there is no such majority.Wink

Quote:I never said I wanted to weaken hitscan weapons, I said I wanted to weaken the ability of players to laser jump all the time.
You implied it.Wink

(05-21-2010, 12:32 PM)Diomedes Wrote: No! Your "specific kind of design" is actually every map that isn't more or less completely open.

Not at all, open areas + laser means hitscan becomes dominant. Long passages that are not open, but not very winding also mean hitscan becomes more or less dominant.

Those two things are most of the sections of most of the CTF maps out there. Same for "official" maps.

Quote:And your second sentence has to be a joke. How do you know what most CTF players appreciate?

Simple map popularity. Democracy in action. Tongue

Quote:
Quote:I never said I wanted to weaken hitscan weapons, I said I wanted to weaken the ability of players to laser jump all the time.
You implied it.Wink

I already explained this, I don't want to change hitscan weapon stats, only somewhat decrease the situations in which they dominate indirectly by weakening the laser's movement potential.
(05-21-2010, 11:57 AM)Cortez666 Wrote: Open maps ending to be maps for hitscan weapons, which means other weapons, like the RL or mortar arent useless. greatwall is a open map so many player use hitscan weapons, but there are people who can use weapons with splashdamage.

Only when the target stops to make a major course change. Like maybe once when he takes your flag, on the aforementioned greatwall maps.

Quote:focusing on projectile weapons would make the gameplay dull. you just need to aim in the direction.

I think you have that backwards-- it's with hitscan weapons that you only need to aim in the direction of the enemy. Projectile weapons have speed so you have to try to lead, predict and 'corner' you target. But even so I don't want to focus on either weapon, I want a balance between both types, which currently CTF doesn't truly have.

Quote:Xonotic isnt even in a alpha status, so at the moment it would be useless to say this feature is going to make the style of xonotic.

Well tell that to the folks who think laser jumping is integral to Xonotic's style, because it dominated later versions of Nexuiz. Personally I only care about the overall quality of Xonotic, not how much alike or different it must be from Nexuiz.

Quote:you have get as fast as possible to your base, because you are mostly under attack and a direct hit with a shoutgun could be your last one. There is always someone who follows you and shoot at you and if your hp is low. you just want to capture as fast as possible. When you are playing non public matches the condtions for the flagcarrier are even worse, because first you have to fight your way through a defender and then you have to deal with 2-3 guys, who are following you and there is just one who supports you.

Well that's where teamwork and fighting ability and even normal movement skill come in.
Midfielders should handle that shotgun guy for you.
Or, you should pass the flag to one of them if you don't have much health left.
Or if you die one of them should pick up the flag before it is recaptured.
Or you should outrun/outfight that lame shotgun guy.

Lasering away is a bit of a cheat, because it is easier to just run away with the laser, than to try to chase someone using the laser, with your laser, while trying to gun him down before he escapes or scores. As opposed to any of the diverse things that can happen that I listed above, especially the teamwork strategies.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

Same old really, everyone other weapon is fine to get changes but you mention laser changes and everyone goes into a hissy fit just because (apparently) 'it's what defines xonotic/nexuiz'.

So what if it does, it doesn't mean that it's redundant to make it balanced? Really I could go on in DM/TDM any game-mode i'm using CTF where it really hurts it, in DM/TDM it's just as annoying when someone just laser's up shoot, land back down, laser up shoot theres literally no skill in doing that and again it's just really making people use the weapons in a decent way, really this is getting a bit silly now, I tried to bring it back onto topic with my post about what the weapon functions could be (everyone must of skippe that post), but I keep finding myself getting dragged back in my killgenerals fishing reel, I cast myself out and then he seems to reel me back into this 'debate' all the time, stop it! Tongue..so i'll go off topic too for a few more posts Smile

P.S this -> I never said I wanted to weaken hitscan weapons, I said I wanted to weaken the ability of players to laser jump all the time.

To be honest I don't mind the laser in what it does, but there really is no skill (at time's, not always ofcourse!) in using it, as if you mess up you can just re-try and laser again about 4 times in a row before your starting to get hurt badly, that's the annoying thing about it, I couldn't care less about getting pinged around with it thats just good aim Smile
Oh yea, and the maps that are used to promote this debate are really quite bad examples for team-games (good public fun though) I'm going to learn netradiant I think just to try make a CTF map that isn't eggandbacon/facing worlds Tongue
http://vimeo.com/10630444 <-- Go watch this, CTF team-play with player's not lasering across maps to see my point of effective use of the weapons, please really do.

Also, maps like facingworlds will often be 0-0 games just because of how the map is, it's pretty linear let's be honest Smile
Takes about 3 mins till the action really starts in the movie by the way Smile
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Maybe we should open two new threads. one where ppl can discuss the laser and one where we discuss the nex Big Grin

There were just so many changes suggested that i am oposed to that i picked up the two most important ones for me Tongue

and kojn i am waiting the whole day for you to join IRC Tongue

Also, the FC could have the laser removed when he has the flag, that's another possibility..so your team-mate's can laser just not the Flag Carrier, what about that guys? Smile
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You seriously think we would even remotely like that? Big Grin

Erm well, surely you must see some kind of compromise, whats wrong with that? It encourages teamplay and it seems like a sensible thing to do to be honest..

http://app2.fileplay.net/file/7338/px-dream-or-reality

Watch this one killgenerals, much more CTF teamwork in that Big Grin

See how the FC can't use the translocator..otherwise it would turn exactly into the same as nexuiz, notice how the team actually have to provide some sort of cover Wink
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Also I just noticed on the dev tracker that dance and gasolinepowered are slated for official inclusion in the first release of Xonotic. (These are both very open CTF maps.)

So for any of you hiding behind the "it's not the laser it's that maps are too open for balanced CTF" argument, it might be time to abandon this for your other bogus arguments. Tongue
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

I admit the amount of whining over removing the laser for CTF for the FC in general would be unbearable ( for public games anyway ) but it could be an option for 'competitive' games.
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(05-21-2010, 02:04 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Also I just noticed on the dev tracker that dance and gasolinepowered are slated for official inclusion in the first release of Xonotic. (These are both very open CTF maps.)

So for any of you hiding behind the "it's not the laser it's that maps are too open for balanced CTF" argument, it might be time to abandon this for your other bogus arguments. Tongue

Dude you just taking quotes out of content. thats just dumb and shows that you are realized you cant hold you argumentation! Now, youtry to defrom the argumentation just to let it look like you won! Killgenerals, Diomedes and I said the people and thier skills make it a balanced CTF game.
The laser discussion was something else. Stop mixing stuff up that leads to nothing.

Don't make this personal, that will lead nowhere.
Personally, making the laser do 40 damage (!) will, in my opinion, slow the game down an assload. FC's take a lot of fire when running the flag, even when supported (flag run when other team is camping with the lead). If laser did that much damage, if you have two more or less equal teams, you might get a cap every 10 minutes, and a whole lot more ragequits.
Regarding attracting mainstream players, I showed my friend nexuiz. He said that "all you have to do is hold space and fire". The mainstream plays games where you run up somewhere, hide behind a box, crouching, then fire one bullet, and then lather rinse and repeat. Is that what you want for xonotic? Because that is what it has to be to attract the average gamer.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]

(05-21-2010, 04:54 PM)Cortez666 Wrote: Dude you just taking quotes out of content. thats just dumb and shows that you are realized you cant hold you argumentation! Now, youtry to defrom the argumentation just to let it look like you won! Killgenerals, Diomedes and I said the people and thier skills make it a balanced CTF game.
The laser discussion was something else. Stop mixing stuff up that leads to nothing.

You've lost me friend, I don't understand what it is you are saying. But I wasn't responding to anything you said with that post anyway, rather a point Diomedes brought up about maps that are "more or less open".

My understanding of his implication was that maps that are too open are the problem or perceived problem, not the laser balance. And I was adding that those very open kinds of maps seem like they will be a major component of official Xonotic. So the official balance must recognize this, by balancing the laser to be not so good at keeping players flying fast through the air as it is now. Otherwise even official CTF will be even more dominated by laser movement and hitscan weapons, at the cost of both teamplay and projectile weapons.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

(05-21-2010, 06:00 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Don't make this personal, that will lead nowhere.
Personally, making the laser do 40 damage (!) will, in my opinion, slow the game down an assload. FC's take a lot of fire when running the flag, even when supported (flag run when other team is camping with the lead). If laser did that much damage, if you have two more or less equal teams, you might get a cap every 10 minutes, and a whole lot more ragequits.
Regarding attracting mainstream players, I showed my friend nexuiz. He said that "all you have to do is hold space and fire". The mainstream plays games where you run up somewhere, hide behind a box, crouching, then fire one bullet, and then lather rinse and repeat. Is that what you want for xonotic? Because that is what it has to be to attract the average gamer.

I'll make this my last post on this then I'll probably set up another thread with actual weapon functions which I make.

I did not say it HAS to do 40 damage I said if you started with 100 health then 40 dmg it could do..in nexuiz you start with 150 in Xonotic will we also start with 150.. I have no idea, the point is, no one gives any other suggestions and say "hey kojn, I think your a smeghead, however I don't like 40 damage thats too much but what about say 25 if you started with 100 health?"

This is why this WILL be my last post on this matter and this thread otherwise i'm just as guilty as dragging it off-topic (which I am already AM guilty of if i'm being honest).
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Is dance really so dominated by hitscan weapons? From what i remember i die on dance from RL as often as from nex, also i never try to do anything without mortar on that map.

About laser, i think that adding more damage to it is not the best idea. Apart from a fact that it will change the gameplay dramatically, i wouldn't change anything about laser because of one simple but important reason, at least for me.

That reason is: I enjoy using laser as a tool for movement. I really do.

I'm deffinately not experienced player and maybe i'm not the right person to discuss here, because things like balance and teamplay are still quite abstract for me (but i have a strong will to change it and i'm learning, giving killgenerals possibility to make his amazing signatures Tongue ). But i can say, what makes me wanting to play nexuiz (and xonotic in future, because probably all of my fav servers will switch to xonotic when it will be released). There are some things which are keeping me with this game and one of these things is laser. Important also in minsta (i couldn't even imagine playing minsta without laser, but laser there is quite different thing...).

What i, as an average player, want to say is, that if i would have to choose, i would vote for not adding laser more damage power.
<Halogene> ok "n1" means "nice one"
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<Halogene> "fu" means "wow that was wickedly nice that frag"
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Alright I'm not sure where this is going but heres my 2 pennies on the way I see laser, nex and map balance at the moment.

On open maps with high roof heights I see people just jumping in the air a lot then raining down mortars and rocket fire. Without a hitscan weapon this is difficult to counter and is just very annoying. People in the air are hard to hit with weapons that are not hitscan or antilagged projectiles.

So without hitscan it just causes people to rocket jump everywhere which turns an already fast game with the laser into a complete joke. The way I see it, hitscan weapons balance the speed that you can gain with the laser.
Hey, want to learn to map? You might want to start here and here!

@kuniu the frogg

I wouldn't say Dance is dominated by hitscan weapons directly, but it can get pretty dominated by weapon jump based caps. And the primary way to counter those, in turn, are with hitscan weapons.

Anyway, adding damage to the laser isn't the only option suggested, for example:

(05-06-2010, 12:51 PM)tZork Wrote: I sort of agree laster jumps should be more expensive; but perhaps not in terms of health; there are other ways too - like refire time, ammo use (perhaps give the laser auto re-charging ammo type?)

tZork's suggestion would work well by making the laser dependent on "Fuel" which regenerates like health, but has nothing to do with your durability.

Thus the laser could be set to cost more fuel and you'd have fewer jumps with it at a time (you'd have to wait for the fuel to auto regenerate) but you would not suffer any health loss from using it!
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

hey ,

from readin all of that , i think how us aussie servers have rl delay set to 0. (xa1 anyway)

im a massive fan of flyin in the air and early in it people did have trouble hitting us.
now alot of people have gotten used to it , i must admit im having trouble stayin alive up there , also the fact that im hurting myself when i jump.

the fact is , it dont matter what balance or weap you have in game , because people find out what works and what dosnt.

personally the great players who can laser their heads off , really quick around the place , have the same , if not quicker advantage as rl flyers.

and the nex gun ... , well , as awesome as it is , EVERYONE USES THAT!

ITS NOT WHAT YA GOT , ITS WHAT YA DO WITH IT.

i think the MIND is the most dangerous weapon , lol!

let people throw themselves around a map , the game is a er 3d experience , dont ground the flyers , that would be just boring!

keep the game fast , but help the new guys learn.

ummm....

did i lose the point in my talk?

ill shut up now.

:^

p.s , whatever happens to balance ,ill still keep playin.

I'm quite astonished that this much people want the laser to stay like it is. At first i thought i was the only one Big Grin

Well nevertheless.
Flying steel: The point is: A part of the comunity wants the laserjumps to be limited and provided lots of examples how you could do that.
Another part of the comunity just wants the laser to be as it is. Basicly we dislike all of the laser suggestions, because they lead to the same thing: even more limited laserjumps.

So the question is not "What can we do to limit it?", but: "Do we want to limit it?" And in this moment, according to the posts its like two people willing to change the laser and like 8 willing to just keep it as it is Big Grin

Well it's up to the devs to make these decisions in the end anyway. I just wanted to raise some points and angles for them to consider in this balancing process. As far as the scope of this thread is concerned I think that's been fairly thoroughly done now.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

what about a weapon that fires something like a very glowing green liquid that melts down the enemy. its name should be something similar to "Toxic" maybe "Xceen".

The easiest by far way to keep everyone happy is simply, make the laser inflict 30-35 self damage. end of story : ) .then lasering in a duel to get better positioning has its drawbacks, and acting like a grasshoper would also hurt. DM has absolutely no problems as in the dcc weapons balance, except the mg primary should be a tad higher (30% more dmg). And over the last 3 months i have played a ridiculous amount of DM, just because of that. Its really balanced.
So just make the self damage higher as kojn says. Frankly, when someone rushes to get out as FC, would do anything to save his ass, maybe even rocket jump to be faster. a 10-15 hp dmg increase is unnoticeable amidst the heavy fire he takes. And appart from grisu who at sometimes needs meditation and aimbots to stophim, i dont know that many ridiculously public server appering good flag runners.
bottom end: 30-35 laser selfdmg is more than fine to fix 90% of problems in my feeling



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