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#1
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#2
I don't understand what else than the version number makes it a milestone. In this day and age with all the major version bumps and no attention paid to minor versions, I'm not even sure what 1.0 means.

EDIT: Oh okay, so this means the API is good to go, but not the software itself. They still have a long way to go.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#3
I totally understand you, I really wish luck for this project though, X.Org have been old for a long time now and its libraries forces developers to write ugly work arounds with several things.
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#4
Cool, but I think it'll take a few years until it's integrated in most distros.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#5
from what I'm reading ... ubuntu plans on using it in version 13 ... which is next year .....

of course ... thats just what they are planning to do ... things may end up differently ...
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#6
Sorry, but what is Wayland?
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#7
@rocknroll: click me!
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#8
Yay! Tongue
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#9
@rocknroll237 Wayland (Weyland? Yutani? whatever it's spelled :-) ) is a graphical server for unix like systems, basically a replacement for X-Windows (Xorg, XFree86).

In e.g. GNU/Linux you run a desktop like KDE, Gnome, or whatever, but that desktop needs underlaying software that talks to the input devices and gpu to be able to work - that is the graphics server. Currently all GNU/Linux and BSD systems use a server called X-Windows which is a hell of an old project - it originated for Unix in the 80's, it's probably one of the oldest pieces of software still in use today. After such a long life, the software gathers some bloat, some algorithms are greatly outdated but not replaceable etc... Needless to say, X is due for a retirement for quite some time and Wayland is aimed at replacing it.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#10
X.org genocide best day of my life.

I think it will be a while till X goes away. Driver support is the big issue at stake here, as well as the fact that the GTK and Qt ports to Wayland are almost nonexistent as it stands (the former has only just started, Qt port is almost complete but has a long way to go till it's stable).

Until the major GUI toolkits/frameworks can work on it, forget Wayland.

From an end-user perspective, I hope for two things:
  • Much more moddability (LOL, talking in gaming terms). In X, there is a hardcoded clipboard. There's 3 goddamn clipboards in the average distro due to this - the terminal's, X.org's and the DE's. It's also why you can't get middle-click scroll in browsers on Linux, which is one of Window's unseen killer features for me personally.
  • Better performance overall. I especially want this, being a gamer. Smile
  • None of that flickery screen crap you see when you enter the Display Manager (logging in screen) and again when you go from the DM to the X session itself (the Xfce desktop itself or whatever).
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#11
GTK+ 3.0 seem to already work on wayland even if it requires some work. Smile

http://wayland.freedesktop.org/gtk.html

Btw Evropi answer mi pm please! Tongue
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#12
There are lots of different barriers to be met to get this to a point of mainline use, just think of all of the different areas that need to access the API!

We have had similar things before. From a naming and organisation perspective we used to have XFree86 which due to political and licencing issues got replaced by it's own fork, X.org in 2004. This changeover happened remarkably transparently despite some opinions to the contrary about how it wasn't going to work, the difference here though is that their is API change, unlike from Xfree86 -> X.org. Maybe people don't remember XGL from 2006/2007? This was the first compositing X server and was done separate from the normal X.org, it was rather cumbersome and required software to specifically support it yet still garnered some attention for a while until AIGLX come into X.org and made it look pointless. It was no wonder as the thing simply couldn't render games in the remotest bit satisfactorily.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#13
(10-23-2012, 01:44 PM)edh Wrote: There are lots of different barriers to be met to get this to a point of mainline use, just think of all of the different areas that need to access the API!

Such as?

BTW, Wayland just got mentioned at suckless's mailing-list I'll keep you guys updatef what their plans and thoughts about this is! Smile
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#14
(10-23-2012, 02:48 PM)machine! Wrote: Such as?

Such as a metric ton of drivers (xkb and friends), graphic toolkits, window-managing apps like WMs or other tools like Devil's pie, screensavers and other things.

EDIT: And I'm forgetting many because I don't know much about this all.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#15
(10-23-2012, 01:02 PM)Evropi Wrote: It's also why you can't get middle-click scroll in browsers on Linux, which is one of Window's unseen killer features for me personally.

The middle click clipboard is a killer feature in GNU for me - it's one of the things that makes me frustrated when I'm on window$ - ^c and ^v are just cumbersome compared to this. The scroll in browsers was good, until I got a mouse with a wheel (somewhere before the beginning of this century ;-) ) - I don't see any use for it nowadays.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#16
(10-23-2012, 01:02 PM)Evropi Wrote: In X, there is a hardcoded clipboard. There's 3 goddamn clipboards in the average distro due to this - the terminal's, X.org's and the DE's.
Heh. Xorg has three clipboards, the middle-click one ('primary'), and a more "usual" one ('clipboard') as well as a 'secondary' one that is unused AFAIK. And I make extensive use of both because they are both useful in their own way.

The DE's is most certainly not required, unless they're trying to add functionality or fix X11's behaviour. I'm all for fixing this, but don't blame X11 on the ugly third-party hacks, blame them on the cause of their existence.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "the terminal's" clipboard (never heard of such a thing). In any case, that's just software-specific stuff, do you blame X11 for vim's forty-something copypaste registers?

(10-23-2012, 01:02 PM)Evropi Wrote: It's also why you can't get middle-click scroll in browsers on Linux (...)
Wrong. In Firefox, check "Use autoscrolling" in Advanced > General in the preferences. Also, to close tabs with middle click instead of pasting the clipboard's url: set middlemouse.contentLoadURL to false. Firefox uses linux-specific settings to accomodate people who are used to Linux more than Windows, but I still prefer the behaviour from Windows.

I don't know about other browsers, but this shows that X11 does not get in the way of such a feature.

(10-23-2012, 01:02 PM)Evropi Wrote: It's also why you can't get middle-click scroll in browsers on Linux, which is one of Window's unseen killer features for me personally.
If you were to ask me, I'd say middle-click pasting is one of X11's killer features. I hate reaching for the keyboard or for lengthy sequences of menus to do quick copypasting when I'm using my mouse in Windows. Everything is relative.


(10-23-2012, 11:19 PM)Cyber Killer Wrote: The middle click clipboard is a killer feature in GNU for me - it's one of the things that makes me frustrated when I'm on window$ - ^c and ^v are just cumbersome compared to this. The scroll in browsers was good, until I got a mouse with a wheel (somewhere before the beginning of this century ;-) ) - I don't see any use for it nowadays.
I want to see you scroll through a kilometer-long page or, even worse, scroll horizontally. Autoscrolling is useful sometimes.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#17
(10-24-2012, 01:22 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 11:19 PM)Cyber Killer Wrote: The middle click clipboard is a killer feature in GNU for me - it's one of the things that makes me frustrated when I'm on window$ - ^c and ^v are just cumbersome compared to this. The scroll in browsers was good, until I got a mouse with a wheel (somewhere before the beginning of this century ;-) ) - I don't see any use for it nowadays.
I want to see you scroll through a kilometer-long page or, even worse, scroll horizontally. Autoscrolling is useful sometimes.

You know, there's always the scrollbar, which you can click and drag for such special cases ;-).
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#18
Konqueror also has something different for middle click so again it's not limited by X11.

Whataver, Wayland might be good but it's a little way off yet from being mainlined and don't expect it magically to double your framerate, that won't happen unless your window manager's compositor is massively inefficient as is.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#19
I never said is was ready neither that it's a huge improvement! Tongue

I just hoping that I can unistall X in q near future, aka in some yourse 3-5 or sth...
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#20
Yeah, I know about Firefox. But I don't use the middle click scroll functionality simply because you not only make autoscroll come up, but also copy the text! And most of the time, you're not copying, you are reading! No excuses, X must at least allow one to do this. I sure hope Wayland does.

Also, I'm all too used to closing tabs in the browser with the middle click. I don't always have my left hand on the keyboard to do a quick Ctrl+W (and please don't recommend me xombrero). This is actually something I use more than autoscroll. You can still close tabs with middle click, but it means the contents of the whole page are pasted into the clipboard. And you can't change this in X unless you disable the middle click completely (or rather, move it to a place for which a hardware button doesn't exist).
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#21
(10-24-2012, 11:44 AM)Evropi Wrote: Yeah, I know about Firefox. But I don't use the middle click scroll functionality simply because you not only make autoscroll come up, but also copy the text! And most of the time, you're not copying, you are reading! No excuses, X must at least allow one to do this. I sure hope Wayland does.
I... don't understand. Do you mean "copy" or "paste"? And where exactly does it paste, if that's what you mean?

(10-24-2012, 11:44 AM)Evropi Wrote: Also, I'm all too used to closing tabs in the browser with the middle click. I don't always have my left hand on the keyboard to do a quick Ctrl+W (and please don't recommend me xombrero). This is actually something I use more than autoscroll. You can still close tabs with middle click, but it means the contents of the whole page are pasted into the clipboard. And you can't change this in X unless you disable the middle click completely (or rather, move it to a place for which a hardware button doesn't exist).
Again I have no idea what you're talking about, you're saying middle clicking a tab both closes it and opens a new tab to the contents of your clipboard? You probably have a bug in your DE or something of that taste, because I've never experienced such a thing. If I middle-click the page it autoscrolls, and if I middleclick a tab in the tab bar it closes. The clipboard is never involved in either of those actions for me.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#22
Is here unfortunately, always has been like that across all DEs. -.-

Basically:
  • I middle click, and while this does put me in autoscroll, it also copies whatever text the cursor is hovering over.
  • I middle click on a tab in Chrome, for instance, and while this closes it, it also copies all the text contained in the page the tab was showing. Yes. Seriously. This is on the default configuration. On Firefox, it closes the tab and copies the address, which is again a bad side-effect.
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#23
WTF?

I just checked.... I selected some text (it's middle click pasteable in any text edit fields), and tried closing tabs with middle click in various browsers: opera, chromium, firefox, rekonq and konqueror. Of all of them, only Konqueror had the behaviour you describe, all others closed the tab normally without any interaction with the clipboard. Ergo: broken on your system only.
My contributions to Xonotic: talking in the forum, talking some more, talking a bit in the irc, talking in the forum again, XSkie
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#24
They have coded ugly work arounds.
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#25
(10-24-2012, 06:35 PM)Evropi Wrote: Is here unfortunately, always has been like that across all DEs. -.-

Basically:
  • I middle click, and while this does put me in autoscroll, it also copies whatever text the cursor is hovering over.
  • I middle click on a tab in Chrome, for instance, and while this closes it, it also copies all the text contained in the page the tab was showing. Yes. Seriously. This is on the default configuration. On Firefox, it closes the tab and copies the address, which is again a bad side-effect.

You do mean copies, right, not pastes? Because I've never heard of middle-mouse being used to copy things, only paste them.

Your problem is bizarre, it's definitely a bug somewhere, but blaming X11's design for it is wrong.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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