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physics / player movement

#1
I thought i might voice my opinion and also see what the community's thoughts might be about the player movement / physics

Xonotic is great in every aspect to me except the current physics . Now i think you guys have done excellent work and for free i might add, on your own time . thank you all so very much . great job guys !
These physics in my opinion are frustrating . I have given my self time to get used to playing and tried other game modes . To me they are very restricting in many ways . First off it is too slow . i cant see any public servers playing ctf with this . New players will probably base camp even more now because it will be too hard to get the flag and return it to thier own because they cant move fast enough .
strafing : where did it go ? race mode absolutely got on my nerves so bad . that was almost impossible to me . Also trick jumps and items in certain maps cannot be obtained anymore using this method .
the physics seem like im trying to run in mud . This has drastically changed the dynamic of the gameplay to a point where it seems like assualt cube or quake live . The main reason i played nexuiz is because it was Fast . I have tried many other FPS's and found nexuiz to be more fun than all the rest because of the physics . It just seems now there is nothing to learn from these physics . There is no more movement skill involved . New players always get so excited to learn how to move a certain way and become good at it as time goes by . these physics are almost like hold forward and thats it .
maps: we cannot use maps from nexuiz unless they are remade . this goes back to strafing . i map i had recently made cant be played because most of the items are in areas where you have to strafe or trick jump . in xonotic the maneuvers are impossible and thus renders the map unplayable or broken in a way . Mookows map G-23 has an area where you are forced to use an air lift to get to another area of the map unless you laser jump two times possibly killing yourself if you have low health . area like this could be camped . I like to have more than one option and path to go but these physics limit so much now .
Im sure there is more i have thought about but im running out of time . work ugh .
I just wanted to voice my opinion and give some feed back about this . I still think xonotic has the best developers on the planet . keep it up .
Master? Do you call me Grasshopper because im cunning and stealthy ?
NO ! You Ugree, Rike Insect !
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#2
The slowness was complained about earlier, it's kinda hard to fix and hopefully the beta will allow to gather more solutions to this.
One thing you don't seem to be aware of though, the physics ARE fast, the acceleration is just kinda slow. Try lasering behind yourself on walls, and you'll reach 1000+ qu/s easily.

One other thing you got wrong is the holding forward and turning point. This is not true at higher speeds, you have to strafe if you want to maintain your speed and control where you're going. You'll run straight into walls if you only use the forward key. It was the same thing in Nexuiz, and that's a desired feature to ease movement for beginners (strafing is hard and not intuitive, I played without strafing for years, only started very recently, I couldn't manage focusing on movement)

And I do believe there is a learning curve and you'll need patience to move accurately through doors and around corners, and to time ramp jumps and such. Indeed, the movement could use some more depth, but that involves messing with the fundamental physics parameters quite a bit, changing everything else in the process. You can't just "add" a specific behaviour in the movement without affecting everything else, unless it's something like dodging on double-tap (which is configurable and might interest you?)
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
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#3
ya i dont have a hard time maintaining speed but it does take forever to get going . strafing only seems to work at higher speeds but then its hard to control the player . It feels like the faster you get the wider it turns . like its got a trunk full of bricks .
I just wish it was nexuiz physics . there was nothing wrong with that and it worked well . ill keep trying the xonotic phys and see if i can get a grip on it .
Master? Do you call me Grasshopper because im cunning and stealthy ?
NO ! You Ugree, Rike Insect !
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#4
Unless physics have changed, they seemed pretty easy to me.
Hold space and w, turn by moving the mouse - don't strafe.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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#5
Yeah I need to say something here or be sorry later for not saying anything. I've been playing Nexuiz for a while now and the main reason I got into Nexuiz was because, well it was free and I wanted to play a game, but what keeps me playing years later is the speed of the game i.e. good physics, strafing, laser jumping, and RL jumping it is unique, fun, and challenging. And the reason I haven't gotten bored with Nexuiz is because these things keep the game fast interesting and fun therefor worth playing now when I try out Xonotic I can't help but ask my self why the departure from Nexuiz's current physics? It just feels slower from the physics down to the laser and RL I can't see my self wanting to play a slower version of Nexuiz. I really hope Xonotic takes off on the first release it would be nice to get new people but if Xonotic is created as a slower paced game then Nexuiz I would find it hard to see the appeal. Like Grass was touching on, you guys do this for free and I appreciate the effort (sticky nades, lightnining gun, HQ Maps.) and for those few examples and I say nice job, anyway this was just my critique/feed back of Xonotic as it is now I just hope the physics get changed.
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#6
I fully agree with this and that's why I started tweaking them... Test the physics in fruitiex/fruitphys, the accel during the first jumps is MUCH higher (probably too high now). Also diagonal strafing is weaker, which is probably why they haven't been accepted...
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#7
Also, two sets of physics will be included for a reason.

Something like the current default (or FruitieX's improved version of it): for regular gameplay. These are cheatproof too, and easy to learn, but still have depth (e.g. learn how to retain your speed by using the strafe keys, and you're generally faster than in Nexuiz).

And, "pro mode" physics will be provided too, especially for race servers. They work the same way as the current ones (same functions on the keys), except that acceleration is stronger when strafing.
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#8
I disagree, I tend to think xonotic physics are faster than nexuiz, because you don't hit obstacles all the time due to its sloppiness. It's just a matter of lasering a wall behind you, only once.
Also, IMHO a constant turn radius would be a bad idea, it means more radial acceleration when you go faster which makes no sense and would let you go in circles of ~300qu diameter while going at 2000qu/s
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#9
+1 for keeping the physics and player movement like it was in Nexuiz. Like grassy and liquid, I have played many FPS games and the only one I have ever stuck with is Nexuiz. The only reason is because of the speed and agile movement. It can takes months or years of practice to go from newbie to master. If everything is slowed down or nerfed then there will be no long learning curve and interest will wane.

Nonetheless you are all doing a superb job and I'll test Xonotic in order to provide more specific feedback. Thanks.
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#10
Now when I come back to Nexuiz, I find movement FAR from agile. It's slow and unresponsive, turning takes your speed away however you strafe, and in most situations you have to stop bunnyhopping or bump into walls if you want to take a 90° turn in a limited space.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#11
(08-31-2010, 02:02 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: I disagree, I tend to think xonotic physics are faster than nexuiz, because you don't hit obstacles all the time due to its sloppiness. It's just a matter of lasering a wall behind you, only once.
Also, IMHO a constant turn radius would be a bad idea, it means more radial acceleration when you go faster which makes no sense and would let you go in circles of ~300qu diameter while going at 2000qu/s

Like, reverse in Big Rigs Smile

Yes, generally the physics are faster now, and there is a suggestion by FruitieX to make them even faster in general use, maybe this will improve their impression. To test it, do

exec physicsNoQWBunny-xpmbased.cfg

These have a lot more air acceleration at low speeds, but fade the air acceleration out at higher speeds. On most maps, you should be faster with these, but you still can get VERY fast with a little effort (e.g. lasering) and then keep most of your speed even at sharp corners.
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#12
(08-31-2010, 02:39 AM)Duke Wrote: +1 for keeping the physics and player movement like it was in Nexuiz. Like grassy and liquid, I have played many FPS games and the only one I have ever stuck with is Nexuiz. The only reason is because of the speed and agile movement. It can takes months or years of practice to go from newbie to master. If everything is slowed down or nerfed then there will be no long learning curve and interest will wane.

Nothing is slowed down or nerfed - but you may have to start over and go a new way from newbie to master, regarding the physics. Don't worry, you probably will reach the point where you outperform your movement in Nexuiz physics after a few days or weeks of playing, and then go on and become even faster.

Yes, such changes mean that people who previously were at "master" level may get turned back into newbies. This can happen with any change, be it physics, weapon or even map changes. But once you walked that path once, it is not hard and pretty quick to walk it again. It certainly is not an argument to not do any changes, ever.
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#13
I just did a quick test of exec physicsNoQWBunny-xpmbased.cfg. the only difference i see is that the turn ratio is higher . i still cant manage to get to areas that i know i can get in nexphysics . and the bunny hop seems to take a bit longer to land and get a quick strafe turn to get an item hanging higher up . the laser boost to jump high is still very weak . idk maybe i should think of this as a different game .
also i just did a 1v1 and now i realize i cant get health after a certain point . this is also like passing up a weapon so the other player can get an edge . supposedly this is what makes a player better , to get his/her ass whooped alot . they eventually get better and then dominate later because they got thier ass handed to them
(08-31-2010, 04:35 AM)divVerent Wrote:
(08-31-2010, 02:39 AM)Duke Wrote: +1 for keeping the physics and player movement like it was in Nexuiz. Like grassy and liquid, I have played many FPS games and the only one I have ever stuck with is Nexuiz. The only reason is because of the speed and agile movement. It can takes months or years of practice to go from newbie to master. If everything is slowed down or nerfed then there will be no long learning curve and interest will wane.

Nothing is slowed down or nerfed - but you may have to start over and go a new way from newbie to master, regarding the physics. Don't worry, you probably will reach the point where you outperform your movement in Nexuiz physics after a few days or weeks of playing, and then go on and become even faster.

Yes, such changes mean that people who previously were at "master" level may get turned back into newbies. This can happen with any change, be it physics, weapon or even map changes. But once you walked that path once, it is not hard and pretty quick to walk it again. It certainly is not an argument to not do any changes, ever.

ya man im really trying . but i honestly have to say that this really is annoying . when i first played nexuiz it wasnt hard to get good at what i do now . it was actually fun to learn . now i am really so frustrated at trying to learn whats going on . I dont mind change and have adapted to alot from in nexuiz changes . but this feels like evrything is being done to start a new fanbase and forget the ones who made nexuiz fun . i really dont want to sound like a dick but i feel like this is an illfonic move with these physics . why fix what wasnt broken in nexuiz ? was there something wrong whith nexphys? or is this a new game completely ? or do the devs feel like they cant play because they cant keep up ? i just want to understand why this direction is being implemented . really im not trying to offend anyone . i just want to know why
Master? Do you call me Grasshopper because im cunning and stealthy ?
NO ! You Ugree, Rike Insect !
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#14
The physics have been improved now, me and frutiex looked into this 2 nights ago..If you can let me demonstrate to you on a server grasshopper you will see how much more fluent and responsive they are too nexuiz's.

"It just seems now there is nothing to learn from these physics . There is no more movement skill involved ."

This is completely untrue, I will make a video/s later to show and explain how to do the movement, you will see it is quicker then nexuiz and easier to keep your speed.
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#15
sure help me understand . im all alone in trying to figure it out . im open to new ideas but im stuck on this .
you can find me on #xonotic.hoctf or under the name Grassh[o]pper . apparently im not getting the physics . if i can learn this i can pass it on to the many ppl who dont like the new phys and help them understand as well. I am a teacher many times over and have helped many to understand how to move , this would be ideal
Master? Do you call me Grasshopper because im cunning and stealthy ?
NO ! You Ugree, Rike Insect !
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#16
Laserjumping is different because of the higher tic rate and the removal of a DP hack. The laser in nexuiz was spawned late, so you had to laser then jump. In xonotic, you have to press jump first.
The health is capped, unless you use a megahealth. Regen is also slower. (I'm not sure I like this new health system :x )
The jump height in Xonotic was reduced in general to give mappers some control on accessibility of parts of the map. In nexuiz, everything was a couple of laserjumps away.
[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
     ― Linux Torvalds
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#17
I like those changes Mr.Bougo on the accessibility bit, like you said everything before was only a couple of laserjumps away Smile

Grasshopper, come onto IRC you can find me in #xonotic or #deathmatchers or #nexrun

I will be able to show you then will be easier if you can contact me on there then you can pass it onto other's, I am going to make a video today showing the movement and upload so hopefully you can pass the links on to other players so they can see just what it is like (and how much more smoother and fluent it is then nexuiz's Smile ).

I will also try to make but probably not today a little video indepth explaining basics in a narrative format in how to move.
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#18
Well, Laser jumping is different, for beginners maybe a bit difficult :/ I hope there will be some changes until first release Wink
The movement is very simple, physics allow fast and acrid movement. I like this atm, its different than in nexuiz. Its good for new players! (You can have much more control of the model than before....)
All in all a good progres; I hope there will still be changes and a good progres.

Good job!
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#19
BTW, the problem with nexuiz physics is a cheat issue. There is a speedhack for the engine exploiting not a protocol bug, but how the physics themselves work.

But in fixing this, we actually ended up with better physics... just take some time to get used to, but then are more exact and controlled, and faster too.
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#20
+1 for keeping nexuiz physics. I understand the need to alter the weapon balance because in nexuiz it simply wasn't balanced. It was 95% nex/mortar/rl. However, I don't understand the need to fix what isn't broken, the physics. They are extremely deep, it takes a long time to fully master them. A lot of people think they have because they bunny hop/know how to laser off walls, but imo one the hardest thing is to go around 90 degree turns while keeping all your speed, and being able to move fluidly in tricky areas while in the process of trying to frag someone using all the keybinds one uses to weapon switch. It becomes extremely tricky on the fingers. I just don't like the fact that the physics in xonotic are slower and simpler. I guess that was the intended goal, but it seems a lot of people prefer the nexuiz physics. Yes we are a little biased because we already know the physics and prefer not to change, but I would prefer complexity and speed over simple and slow any day.
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#21
(08-31-2010, 06:40 PM)Blackmushroom Wrote: +1 for keeping nexuiz physics. I understand the need to alter the weapon balance because in nexuiz it simply wasn't balanced. It was 95% nex/mortar/rl. However, I don't understand the need to fix what isn't broken, the physics. They are extremely deep, it takes a long time to fully master them. A lot of people think they have because they bunny hop/know how to laser off walls, but imo one the hardest thing is to go around 90 degree turns while keeping all your speed, and being able to move fluidly in tricky areas while in the process of trying to frag someone using all the keybinds one uses to weapon switch. It becomes extremely tricky on the fingers. I just don't like the fact that the physics in xonotic are slower and simpler. I guess that was the intended goal, but it seems a lot of people prefer the nexuiz physics. Yes we are a little biased because we already know the physics and prefer not to change, but I would prefer complexity and speed over simple and slow any day.

Have you tried them? Like, in latest GIT? They are faster than the Nexuiz physics.
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#22
It's funny how many say the new ones are simpler, but the same guys also say they are slower. They obviously don't understand how to use them yet. Whoever wants to, I could make a quick mod to have Nexuiz physics for one player and Xonotic physics for the other. I'll race you then, and win for sure. You can even choose the map, as long as it's a DM map and not one specifically made for Nexuiz or Xonotic physics (like, the first *run maps).

The truth is, they are much easier to learn for someone who has played CPMA (or Nexrun) before than for someone who has only played Nexuiz. That is no surprise.

Also, it is true that some jumps are no longer possible. On the other hand, some new jumps became possible too. The physics are simply different.
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#23
(08-31-2010, 11:43 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
(08-31-2010, 06:40 PM)Blackmushroom Wrote: +1 for keeping nexuiz physics. I understand the need to alter the weapon balance because in nexuiz it simply wasn't balanced. It was 95% nex/mortar/rl. However, I don't understand the need to fix what isn't broken, the physics. They are extremely deep, it takes a long time to fully master them. A lot of people think they have because they bunny hop/know how to laser off walls, but imo one the hardest thing is to go around 90 degree turns while keeping all your speed, and being able to move fluidly in tricky areas while in the process of trying to frag someone using all the keybinds one uses to weapon switch. It becomes extremely tricky on the fingers. I just don't like the fact that the physics in xonotic are slower and simpler. I guess that was the intended goal, but it seems a lot of people prefer the nexuiz physics. Yes we are a little biased because we already know the physics and prefer not to change, but I would prefer complexity and speed over simple and slow any day.

Have you tried them? Like, in latest GIT? They are faster than the Nexuiz physics.
No, I did not have the latest git when I made that post. They are much better now. The only problem I see has already been mentioned, which is that you wont be able to do certain jumps or get to certain places on old nexuiz maps. Other that that I can see the sped up physics that you have now working for this game.
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#24
First off, I have said it before so I will say it again: Xonotic is not Nexuiz, so Xonotic maps are not Nexuiz maps. If Nexuiz maps no longer work as intended for Xonotic than those maps should either be left in the dust or remade. In other words 'this change breaks movement tricks on old Nexuiz maps' should never be an argument to NOT introduce a change to this game, if that change is needed or desired.

In how many cases were those jumps intended by the mapper anyway? All the little fun things in Soylent, were they intended like that by the mapper? ONLY when they were deliberately put in there to be part of the gameplay could one even argue a map 'broke' when it is no longer possible to do them.

So it's also good to know WHICH things exactly don't work anymore Smile
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#25
(09-02-2010, 04:18 AM)PinkRobot Wrote: First off, I have said it before so I will say it again: Xonotic is not Nexuiz, so Xonotic maps are not Nexuiz maps. If Nexuiz maps no longer work as intended for Xonotic than those maps should either be left in the dust or remade.
+1
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