balanceFruit.cfg

Yeah, let's introduce a one second delay to firing each weapon; then it won't be point and click anymore.

Because tell you what, shotgun is point and click, uzi is point and click, nex is point and click, rifle is point and click, seeker is point and click, hlac and laser are point and click, mortar, hagar, rocketlauncher are point and click to a certain extent.

I'm sure you know your argument is made of straw and you are playing me for a fool.

The only point and click weapons are those that fire quickly, accurately, and with hitscan speed (that is, electro, nex, rifle).

My only contribution to this informal "new xonotic weapon design" thread is to make the hagar heat seeking and do low, rotting damage. The idea is to encourage burst fire. Here are my thoughts:
1. Heat seeking weapons are noob (and lag) friendly and you have to have fun as a noob to hang around long enough to become pro.
2. Tag seeker needs tagging before seeking so the only reason ever to use it would be because your nex is out of ammo. Don't give me any tag seeker replies. It is a poorly designed weapon IMHO.
3. This way the wall bouncing actually can be useful for something other than suiciding.
4. Nexuiz CTF is broken IMHO. With the ABSURD agility and speed of nexuiz most weapons are useless against a fleeing flag carrier. There is really little point in putting anything but nexguns and machineguns in even a semi-open CTF map. A weapon which slowly but constantly chews away at your hitpoints will at least encourage the carrier to engage a pursuer the way one would in Deathmatch.

If lengthening mortar sticky time makes them in-effective then perhaps consideration should be given to returning them bouncy like in Nexuiz, because at least they could be used as a good around-the-corner weapon, they were effective for that. Both primary and secondary Nades were one of my most favorite weapons.

Don't get me wrong, I like sticky too, even with the delay set as it is. I'll learn to play it. I'm not trying to come across as a jerk about this issue.

And @Ihsan, I hate seeker weapons. Hell I hate shooter guided rockets, but thats just me. ;-)

I've been away for some time and wasn't able to read all what has been written here in the meantime (and now I don't have the time to do so either). So excuse me if I am repeating something which has been said here already.

I noticed that if you shoot sticky grenades at a moving brush, the grenade doesn't move with that brush but stays in the air. Also, in this case, the standard detonation timer doesn't apply, but the one for "flying" grenades (which is waay longer). You are also not able to shoot the grenades to detonate them - except with splash damage.

I chatted with divVerent about this and he said it can't be helped. Though I really like the sticky grenades I would find it very irritating if they got stuck in mid-air. This would, in my opinion, look like a bug (well, it is, actually). If it can't be helped, do we want to have such a bug in Xonotic?

I tested them out on a 1on1 lately, and I must admit, I like them a lot. Only thing I dislike would be the max heath/armor limit.

I noticed that if you shoot sticky grenades at a moving brush, the grenade doesn't move with that brush but stays in the air. Also, in this case, the standard detonation timer doesn't apply, but the one for "flying" grenades (which is waay longer). You are also not able to shoot the grenades to detonate them - except with splash damage.

What can be done, is either making the grenade drop down when this happens, or detonate.

For now, sticky grenades simply detonate when hitting an object that is not the world.

That sounds like a good compromise. Thanks, divVerent.

i played for some minutes on the balance testing server. my opinions:

hlac feels useless, the projectiles are too slow.

electro primary.... sorry, i think it should be changed to a completely different firemode. its just too simple. no matter how noobish you are, you WILL do some damage with it. extreme fireate, 100% accuracy and hitscan.... that cant fit. one round we played only with the electro, and it was extremely lame. hold down the mouse button, and try to point at the enemy, wow.

crylinks primary push was too high, a strong push does not fit to the electro imo.

i as a noob ingame was able to gain high speed on agressor.... it was too easy to get fast. imo bunnyhopping should only be useful for long distances so you dont hop all the time. i hold down the spacebar for a minute and it worked quite well.

i as a noob was able to dogde mortar grenades....... acceleration is too high imo.

Ok, since I don't have much time to play/test it and posting here, I give you some thoughts now and I know its late (I played it yesterday).

Prim. = Primary
Sec. = Secondary

Laser: First of all, why did you change them?
Anyway, as for me without practise I was pretty hard to jump high.. to get this "Jump+shoot after it" done. I loved to laser jump high in infights, but thats pretty hard now. I would keep the "old" laser (I guess its too late).

Shotgun: The secondary melee weapon is waaaay to strong at the moment. I don't know how much damage it does at the moment (100-110? ). But its almost an 1 hit weapon everytime and you have got it always. We played DM and I only used the Shotgun sec. and got a lot of (easy) frags. Suggestions:
a) Less damage
b) After some thinking.. , switch the melee function to Hagar sec. ? I find the melee weapon very strong and not good as a weapon to start with. But if the Hagar got it you need to pick it up first. Also it makes the Hagar useful (!).

Machine Gun: Feels ok, maybe a little little less damage.

Mortar: Ok too! Difficult to hit in the beginning but its good.

Electro: Woha. The primary is too strong, because its very easy to use and hit with it. You frag the enemy kinda fast! Should be weaker and maybe more difficult to use (not sure how).

Crylink: Prim. feels so slow, but the weapon can stay like it is now.

'Nex': Primary=Secondary?? Or is there any secret? If its the same, why did you remove the zoom function?

Hagar: *Points to Shotgun* . Still the most useless weapon in my opinion.

Rocket Launcher: Rockets seem a bit to fast at the first impression. I'm not sure about it yet.

HLAC: Looks ok.


And I don't like the delay if you switch a weapon yet, I guess that needs some practise too.

Cheers.

I have some problems with the crylink primary it seems so slow and to much spread...
I think the old crylink primary was better :S

But I should can live with it

I have some problems with the crylink primary it seems so slow and to much spread...

bigger spread - more chance to hit in closed areas, corridors etc. Maybe it is a bit too slow, but imo spread is ok.
Btw secondary is way faster and has waaaay less spread (almost no spread at all ) so i think it's ok. Two firing modes complementing each other. Good.

'Nex': Primary=Secondary?? Or is there any secret? If its the same, why did you remove the zoom function?

Primary pushes, secondary pulls.


Will have to see about shotgun secondary, I could imagine it's a bit on the powerful side in a massive DM match yes. However, IMO it's good that you get shotgun slapped if you don't pay attention. In duels it's fine. Oh and it's 110 damage, fading down to 0 after half of the animation.

Electro is overpowered too, agree there. Perhaps so is rifle and rocketlauncher. On the other hand, could just make the _other_ weapons stronger?

In my mind, current balance by you is not bad, fruitieX.

I would suggest just little changes here.
I think rifle and electro (primary) are overpowered. (is the rocketlauncher too?)
Why can I only shoot (with electro secondary) 3 balls here? (maybe raise the number of them, 5-10+?)
Shotgun is ok, melee in massive deathmatches... hm (dont know a solution )
machinegun is ok, keep it as it is atm!
Crylink primary is a bit slow, but thats ok (I just think its a little bit to slow )
rocketlauncher is slower than before, damage is ok, I think. (Is rocketjumping/-pushing, in air, still possible?)
mortar`s shoots are more difficult now, sticky nades are good
Hagar is a bit more useless now, maybe increase the damage a bit, you wont hit a lot of shots...
hlac doesnt spray a lot, fireball is as in 2.5 (Im right?)
Well, no zoom for the nex, thats a bit different, pull-push shoots are indeed something new! Damage here is good balanced.

There is just one thing I dont like. The laser. You cant laser someone to death anymore, jump height is lower now (btw: is wallclimbing still possible?!?!), overall laser-power is not very...usefull.
I would suggest to give the laser its power back. (I know, your reason to lower its power is for mappers, so that they can make some places in maps you cant reach with the laser. In nexuiz, the player was able to reach nearly each area of the map.)

Edit: And, I forgot, what about weapon change-time?! Its too slow IMO. It will make the gameplay faster (maybe a bit ) and combos are better possible then. Thats another very important thing.
Well, weapon-respawn time... its completely different. But ok, thats completely new too.

Dont take me wrong, Its just my statement and there are a lot of things I like! These are just suggestions I want you to think about.

Crylink primary we can look into making this a bit faster now that people seem to have a better grasp of the physics (and also because they changed to be faster acceo), it's perhaps a bit too slow, so thanks for the feedback on that guys.

I also think MG is pretty much fine now..if we lower damage by 1 the DPS goes down by like 16 or 20, same if we increase it by 1.

RL is actually faster Debugger

Electro primary..this seems powerful because -> If you have unlimited ammo on in testing because it's used a LOT because it's quite 'fun' and easy to use.. Will look into with frutiex ammo consumption so that this becomes better balanced it will then not seem as strong because it probably looks like this as everyone is using it at the moment a lot..as in you will need to actually pick up ammo to use it, will use it relatively quickly, and a ammo cap for the weapon, perhaps 75-100.

Laser, yes you can still wallclimb.

Weapon change-time..I never really noticed, didn't think it had been changed?? Will ask FrutieX (I have been away for some days).

Weapon change time has been decreased to .1, which is a step in the right direction.

maybe there should be a difference of the xon/nex beam on push and pull

I'm joining this discussion rather late, so I don't really know what's been discussed and what hasn't, but anyway:

Has a charging weapon been considered? By charging I mean a weapon that doesn't fire when you click, but fires when you let go. Depending on how long you've held the button down, a different sized projectile would be fired. This could be an alternative to the HLAC primary - it is a cannon after all!

They had been, but not so much for the 'normal' weapons (as in the standard set, not HLAC,seeker, fireball etc). It depends what the HLAC is meant to be..a super-weapon or just a normal weapon but as an extra weapon, I guess this needs to be decided upon first and then we can start developing settings for the primary and secondary which is why I never bothered to touch it before, hopefully div0 can let us know

Even though a minsta fanatic like me shouldn't care, I dislike the changes you have made to electro. It was the most fun and creative weapon in Nexuiz, why would you change it? The primary fire is boring and functions much like the pulse gun in Unreal Tournament, the secondary is now just useless. Other than that, I'm fine with the config.

Alright I just screwed around with the latest git, here are my thoughts:
For the most part this balance is a HUGE improvement over that of Nexuiz 2.5.2, HOWEVER I do some gripes and here they are:

Health and Armor
------------------
I'm completely against the limits placed on the health and armor stacking for the simple reason that it gives me less incentive to scour the maps and removes a vital strategy for taking flags. It also makes this game look more like a Quake III clone.


Weapons (Behavior, NOT BALANCE)
------------------
Laser: Think my pellet gun is more useful than this thing now that it has very little push.

Shotgun: Primary feels kinda slowish with the fire rate.

Electro: BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL PRIMARY FIRE MODE.

Mortar: Really bummin' about the bouncy nades. Please bring back bouncy nades or find a way to get all three of it's firing modes onto the weapon. Making the secondary cycle through the grenade types would allow all three firing modes. Another suggestion would be to replace the primary fire with sticky nades and set them to explode if they get within a certain distance of a player while bringing back bouncy nades.

Crylink: The primary fire has too slow of a fire rate to make effective and at the same time fires WAAAY too many projectiles at once (should probably be made more like 2.5.2). The secondary essentially makes the HLAC a redundant weapon as well. In my opinion the new electro firing mode would be a good drop-in replacement for the Crylink secondary if it's range is chopped down.

Alright I just screwed around with the latest git, here are my thoughts:
For the most part this balance is a HUGE improvement over that of Nexuiz 2.5.2, HOWEVER I do some gripes and here they are:

Health and Armor
------------------
I'm completely against the limits placed on the health and armor stacking for the simple reason that it gives me less incentive to scour the maps and removes a vital strategy for taking flags. It also makes this game look more like a Quake III clone.


Weapons (Behavior, NOT BALANCE)
------------------
Laser: Think my pellet gun is more useful than this thing now that it has very little push.

Shotgun: Primary feels kinda slowish with the fire rate.

Electro: BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL PRIMARY FIRE MODE.

Mortar: Really bummin' about the bouncy nades. Please bring back bouncy nades or find a way to get all three of it's firing modes onto the weapon. Making the secondary cycle through the grenade types would allow all three firing modes. Another suggestion would be to replace the primary fire with sticky nades and set them to explode if they get within a certain distance of a player while bringing back bouncy nades.

Crylink: The primary fire has too slow of a fire rate to make effective and at the same time fires WAAAY too many projectiles at once (should probably be made more like 2.5.2). The secondary essentially makes the HLAC a redundant weapon as well. In my opinion the new electro firing mode would be a good drop-in replacement for the Crylink secondary if it's range is chopped down.

The limits on health & armour should encourage to scour the maps more, because you will need to pick it up if you want to survive. Player's like myself will abuse no health & armour caps by just going around picking everything up (and cycle timing it all) and being 200/300 health/armour stacked monsters. It's not Quake III Cloning, UT series implements exactly the same thing, and it stops monster hoarding..we already have regenerating health which IS unique so I don't see the problem.

Laser: Ok, well it is not making the game so aerial now, it is still useful, try jumping then pressing fire you will gain a lot of height just not as much in nexuiz, I don't know really what more to say this other then I can only make a video/s to show how powerful it is with the new movement in the right hands..we tried it with the old settings and most of the current weapon settings, and it became the same old laser in the air constantly, CTF was exactly the same..cap after cap after cap because everyone is in the air all the time which is just seriously breaking maps and CTF specifically.

I even suggested for CTF specifically that FCs can't use the laser but this got a lot of 'omg wtf, you can't be serious will be too slow' replies, balance? Xonotic movement is quicker and fluent then nexuiz.

And yes some people didn't like originally but they got used to it and then quite liked it/can live with it, some people don't like it, but it certainly helps stop creating the game into a 4 weapon game like nexuiz.

Shotgun: Weapon with the least amount of 'complaints', it is good enough as a starting weapon now, I haven't heard near enough issues about the ROF of it, so I don't expect it to get changed.

Crylink: Rate of fire can perhaps be increased but the biggest issues people have commented on is the speed of it, therefore it's more likely the speed of the primary will be increased first as it's too slow and the damage may be upped, but the first change will/should be speed followed by damage if need be, it also fires as many shots as it did in nexuiz I believe it just looks like more because of the higher spread..although need someone to confirm this.

Mortar: Originally sticky grenades were primary and bouncy secondary, but too many people disliked this (nearly everyone who gave feedback at the time), they were happy with the sticky grenades but they wanted the mortar primary to be like the one in nexuiz, so sticky was swapped too secondary, there was concerns that giving the mortar 3 fire modes effectively will make it too strong and then there's the implementation side of it.

Electro, I don't see this being changed from the current fire-mode's to the old one except possible tweaks (ammo usage for sure) and maybe faster ROF for secondary balls or higher damage.

Laser: Think my pellet gun is more useful than this thing now that it has very little push.

Electro: BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL PRIMARY FIRE MODE.

Crylink: The primary fire has too slow of a fire rate to make effective and at the same time fires WAAAY too many projectiles at once (should probably be made more like 2.5.2). The secondary essentially makes the HLAC a redundant weapon as well. In my opinion the new electro firing mode would be a good drop-in replacement for the Crylink secondary if it's range is chopped down.

i agree with lee in these points.

laser is not strong enough now. maybe push AND damage should be encreased, so it doesn't get too powerful.

electro: the old primary was fine imo, and the new one is _*WAY*_ too easy to use. i mean, really WAY too easy. (as in extremely easy, you get it ) instant hit, insane firerate, and 100% accuracy, that CANNOT work.

crylink: primary.... for me it's difficult to use, but others seem to like it... secondary is bad. it's just another fast-firing firemode, we don't need another one. it also has the problem that it makes the crylink good for both close and long-range, because of the 100% accuracy and the fast projectiles.



my suggestions:
1. give the laser more push.
2. change electro primary back to 2.5.2
3. change the electro secondary to at least the now-electro-primary. but i like the idea below more.

as i don't like the idea of the instant-hit constant-damage 100-%accuracy-firemode, i would suggest to change crylink secondary to something new:

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/w73u...1m4d1w.jpg (not coded by me)

it also doesn't need any skill to use, but it looks like more chaos and is way cooler than the current electro primary (remember, i suggest this for crylink secondary, electro primary should go back to 2.5.2). it could also be changed that the lightings lock to a point (where the crosshair aims at) , but would take random routes to that point.

it also could be changed to have a short range, to make the crylink a 100%-shortrange-weapon.

Well, the original reason why the Electro primary was changed was that it was essentially the same as the rocket launcher, just a little bit weaker.

Well, the original reason why the Electro primary was changed was that it was essentially the same as the rocket launcher, just a little bit weaker.

That's like me saying that the ASMD (Shock Rifle) was the same as the sniper rifle, just a bit weaker.