Improving current balance (aka FruitieX's balance)

Restoring electro's orginal mode is a bad breinwave (its useless, I never rly had been using it in Nexuiz), I agree with waterlaz.

But movin' the lightning to cyrlink is certainly bad idea, I thought we ve already found out the cyrlink is a very useful weapon with current settings.

Removing/adding weapons... This thread should be considered after orginal relase when more people will be able to check it by themselves in game.

Removing MG is a solution (replacing it with other separated weapon) +1

I'd also like to make a comment on people whining about xonotic balance. As divverent said on irc that is one of the reasons for a new balance. Well, you all won't let me lie on this one, I was whining about xonotic balance pretty much a lot myself. And what I thought wrong about new balance was somewhat fixed.

I know players that won't even touch this game because of the balance, even though they enjoyed 2.5.2

Could you please post their problems with current balance in the form of a list 1) 2) 3)...
Becouse right now most of the stuff is a lot like 2.5.2. So if they don't like 2.5.2 they might have problems with:

1) laser. The laser is weaker in xonotic. But afaiu divverent and many other people don't want to change the laser. So that's out of the question.
2) Nex. The nex has charge right now and faster refire(which is not that usefull with new balance). But from what I understand your balance has a similar view on nex. Go look at shirkhan.dyndns.org:26520
3) Crylink. Crylink is not much different from nexuiz. It just has a simple modification done to secondary which made it a bit more usefull.
4) Electro. Electro has different primary. But it actually made it into a usefull weapon. And from my point of view even the secondary is more usefull now(maybe needs tweaks though) as it is easier to blow up those balls now. And I'll mention it again it was hardly used before. Now it is used a fair amount of time.
5) Rockets. Rockets don't fly now iirc. Lets discuss it. If that's what bothers you we can work it out and make them controllable again.
6) Hagar, Mortar, SG are pretty much the same. Hagar needs tweaks though. Again, we are open for suggestions.

If you feel I've missed a point or distorted some info, please say so.

I actually did use the electro a lot in Nexuiz, it was my first choice when not having mortar, nex or RL =)
The combo was what made it attractive, damage wise. Planting 1-3 plasma balls and then detonating them with the primary mode.
This is not possible anymore with the current electro (I mean, you might be able to trigger the combo with the beam now, still, it had a different feeling if you did so with the old primary mode, you had to time it better since you had to keep the "projectile" delay in mind.

I actually did use the electro a lot in Nexuiz, it was my first choice when not having mortar, nex or RL =)
The combo was what made it attractive, damage wise. Planting 1-3 plasma balls and then detonating them with the primary mode.
This is not possible anymore with the current electro (I mean, you might be able to trigger the combo with the beam now, still, it had a different feeling if you did so with the old primary mode, you had to time it better since you had to keep the "projectile" delay in mind.

I agree to GreEn`mArine here, I also liked to do the combo and actually did use the electro even if mortar or rocket launcher were available. The combo with the lightning version of the electro is also valuable, but it doesn't give the same satisfaction of setting it off, dunno why.

However I grew to tolerate the lightning version of the electro and could do without the pevious version even though I still prefer the Nexuiz electro. If the lightning would have a slightly stronger push you could do interesting stuff with it as well... (notice that this was a new push force idea, not the ones I keep insinuating)

The thing is the nexuiz electro was USELESS. Never did I feel threatened by anyone wielding it and never did it's bullshit "area denial" feature stand up to the rocket launcher or nex in this capacity.

As an offensive weapon it beat out only the starting weapons and it's slow ass, ground based area denial combo did not in the least fit a very fast paced, highly airborne, WIDE corridor focused game.

So the weapon needs major rethinking whether it's primary fire mode is projectile based or not. If laser vertical force is enhanced or restored, then electro secondary needs to be totally redesigned. Because area denial is useless versus the 'volume denial' RL, when half the game is have played in the air (again).

...If the lightning would have a slightly stronger push you could do interesting stuff with it as well... (notice that this was a new push force idea, not the ones I keep insinuating)

Don't give it too much force, or else it will push the enemy out of range

The Nexuiz Electro was always a defensive weapon (at least, I found it much easier to use when retreating). You could set a trap if you knew your enemy was just around the corner, and trying to aim while bunnyhopping-strafing forward was a nightmare, I had to rely on splash damage. Now the Shaft can be used for any kind of close combat, and can still rig traps (although I admit you can't detonate them from as far away with the Shaft).

It would be nice to keep the Shaft and Bolt, but I don't know where to put them.

The thing is the nexuiz electro was USELESS. Never did I feel threatened by anyone wielding it and never did it's bullshit "area denial" feature stand up to the rocket launcher or nex in this capacity.

As an offensive weapon it beat out only the starting weapons and it's slow ass, ground based area denial combo did not in the least fit a very fast paced, highly airborne, WIDE corridor focused game.

So the weapon needs major rethinking whether it's primary fire mode is projectile based or not. If laser vertical force is enhanced or restored, then electro secondary needs to be totally redesigned. Because area denial is useless versus the 'volume denial' RL, when half the game is have played in the air (again).

Your probably just not as good with it as you are other weapons. Similar to how some people (me NOT being one of them) can totally tear shit up with the ASMD/Shock Rifle in UT99. I actually scored just as many kills with the electro as I did almost any other weapon save maybe the grenade launcher. The electro is a good weapon for setting up quick traps and denying someone access to an area, it's also very useful for giving someone hell for trying to grab a weapon. The electro was anything but useless... until they changed the primary fire. Not a whole lot more satisfying than hauling ass out of a fight you can't handle and setting off a blast that earns you a frag as your attacker runs through a door while trying to chase you down.

Electro was NOT useless in nexuiz, IMHO this is a crazy thing to say. The ONLY reason it wasn't used much is because it's primary fire is similar to mortar so most people didn't use it, if you had mortar you'd use that instead of electro and never got used to using the electro primary/secondary combo. You just can't deny that.

Personally I don't mind if electro is back or not in Xonotic, but I just had to defend it again those claims. EDIT: by that I mean that Xonotic is a new game, so arguing if a weapon should be like in Nexuiz is irrevelent, we're just using Nexuiz weapons as a base for the new balance. Maybe if electro had a new name, new model and new effects maybe you guys wouldn't even be arguing about it. Fact is, there is no other weapon like it in xonotic, so I think maybe it's worth a shot to make it work with the balance.

Your probably just not as good with it as you are other weapons.

I said I never feared anyone else using it against me. And I've been playing since 2.3, so if the weapon was at all lethal, I would have encountered some people who were good with it in that time.

Electro was NOT useless in nexuiz, IMHO this is a crazy thing to say.

It's only use is when you have no other weapon besides starting weapons or the HLAC after it was neutered. In other words it's useless.

The ONLY reason it wasn't used much is because it's primary fire is similar to mortar so most people didn't use it, if you had mortar you'd use that instead of electro and never got used to using the electro primary/secondary combo. You just can't deny that.

No, I can and do deny that without hesitation. What you say is absurd. Reasons:

1) If the electro primary was useful, people would have learned to use it whether they wanted to or not. Because the game is balanced in such a way that ammo for any weapon is scarce and runs out quickly, so when the only weapon / ammo combination you have left is the electro, that is what you use.

2) The mortar was a superior weapon, because its primary had greater radius, no radius falloff and much greater force. People stuck to the mortar for a reason, it was not habit.

3) The electro's combo, supposedly the weapons main focus, did not at all fit the game and was next to useless against any mediocre opponent. A slow to set up, slow to set off, short lived, short ranged, entirely ground based trap did not mesh with an ultra fast, heavily airborne game. The electro combo was pathetically easy to evade.

Fine, then I'll reply by saying that everything you just said is invalid as it relates to Nexuiz and not Xonotic, which has a new balance which means that if the "electro" is too weak as you say, then they can fix it just like any other weapon.

*facepalms at the sight of Flying Steel's response* The electro is best used as a defensive weapon similar to how the GES biorifle (one of the most complained about weapons in gaming) is best used defensively in UT. When used defensively, such as in retreats, it's a VERY lethal weapon. In a non-defensive role, the electro is best used to clear a room out before entering. As for the ground based attack argument, you've obviously never tried to time a good combo off of a wall or a ceiling.

Or he just used a quck Nex-Mortar combo to kill enemies! Anyway all this stuff is off topic. UT, Nexuiz and such..

Regarding electro,

For those who say that nexuiz 2.5.2 electro was useless: You have no idea what you are talking about, or at least you don't have the right the misjudge the weapon without proper knowledge. The electro, as some people mentioned, is known as a good defensive weapon. Indeed, people would normally use mortar instead of electro when available, but you guys don't understand the true value of the electro's use.....the amount of area that it can cover. Take aggressor for example; if you spam the hell out of it on the nex side, in the lower areas, you can cover a lot of area, regardless if you are playing offensive or defensive. This holds true to other maps that contain the electro as well, given they are in somewhat tight areas. Also, it's probably important to note that it's easier to make electro mid airs, when compared to the mortar, due to the arc in the mortar.

Regarding Mg/Lightning gun,

The mg in nex 2.5.2 (fixed balance mind you) never seemed like a primary weapon to use for offense. What do I mean by primary? Usually the first weapon one would use to do a lot of damage during an encounter. However, I found that the MG was a great weapon to use as a finisher. Even better than the nex in most cases. Why? First off, you eliminate the chance of wasted ammo due to a missed nex shot to finish off an enemy. Second, if you do indeed miss a shot with mg, you aren't punished..or at least when compared to missing a finishing nex shot, not nearly as much. At the same time, if you miss a nex shot, you have to wait for it to reload before you can shoot again..with the mg, that reload time is much less, so you can get another shot up to finish the job. Now, the xonotic lg would most likely work in the same way. Currently, I don't view it as a primary weapon to use, since it doesn't do a lot of damage (especially when compared to quake 3/quake live). However, I think it would fulfill the job of the mg fairly well at short and mid range. The shotgun also falls into the category of a finisher weapon as well, but it has greater spread and longer reload.

So, what would probably be the best idea, taking this knowledge into consideration, is to revert the electro to it's previous state, and replace the mg with lg, as someone mentioned.

I said I never feared anyone else using it against me. And I've been playing since 2.3, so if the weapon was at all lethal, I would have encountered some people who were good with it in that time.

Obviously you haven never played any good duelers during those years, especially dib, nifrek, ome, ghost, and usil on aggressor.

I might add that I very often used the electro in duels for hitting people from down below through the wall. Like in agressor when they were going from the teleport to the mega armor above the rocket launcher, I often fired a secondary ball upwards where I predicted them to be and detonated it just as it was hitting the passageway from below with primary. The blast radius of the combo is big, so I managed to do quite a lot of damage through the wall.

Also did I use the electro combo in a similar way near the teleport to the nex from down below to the upper platform, since many players tend to run into the teleport just to turn right up there and attack from above. Very often have I had success hitting them with an electro combo from down below just there. :o)

*facepalms at the sight of Flying Steel's response* The electro is best used as a defensive weapon similar to how the GES biorifle (one of the most complained about weapons in gaming) is best used defensively in UT.

Seriously, the BIORIFLE as an argument for a weapon's effectiveness? Maybe you should have saved that face palm for yourself.

@mirio and nifrek:

It's relevant in that fruitiex's balance overhauled the electro, whereas the new-new-old balance by samual and tzork bases it's electro off of nexuiz' (relatively speaking at least). So the closest thing to the current Xonotic electro the full community has used was the 2.5.2 electro. So talking about that applies to how it could and should be improved in upcoming versions of Xonotic (since again, 0.1 used a now defunct electro).

Also, mortar-nex combo? What happened to RL flak or just using hitscan nex on ground dwellers (and everyone, actually)?

@PCLizard

A weapon should not only be effective at duels on aggressor. Heh, it's a 1 gametype, 1 map, 2 player only weapon!

I was just using aggressor as an example. I have other examples if I need to provide them.

*Notices Flying Steel's lack of a valid argument in comparison to the other posts on this thread*

@PCLizard
My point is a weapon has to be generally useful in a game that has (or will have) roughly a dozen maps, a dozen gametypes (CTF being a big one), and games with as many as a dozen players sometimes (though half that many might make more reasonable fights).

@Captain_Spam
If you haven't "validated" any of the arguments I have put forward then I must be doing something right.

Problem with making weapons useful for general use is that they lose their specialization (a major problem in balanceFruit). While a weapon shouldn't be generally useless, it should have a situation where it dominates. The electro dominated defensive roles in it's previous state, in it's current state it has been made more to fill a role which is already handled by the machine gun.

Separate Lightning Gun. Problem solved.

If the LG replaces the MG, then we will only have one weapon that uses bullet ammo, the rifle. I always thought it was inconvenient at best to have a whole ammo (shells) type dedicated to one gun (SG). with TWO ammo types dedicated to ONE gun each, it would be quite unbalanced. If this replacement does happen, I would suggest making the SG use bullet ammo.

I'm going to expound on Monad's Law now, by saying that "With every post the chances that a thread will turn into a balance thread approach one. Of the balance threads, with every post the chances that the thread will turn into a Electro balance thread approach one."

Also, make sure when you guys fight... I mean debate, make sure that you don't attack the person, and remember to support your own arguments just as much (if not MORE than) as you attack theirs.

Peace.

Separate Lightning Gun. Problem solved.

Agreed with seperating the lightning gun. Also just an idea: as drastic an idea as it sounds, replacing the machine gun (we already have an HLAC) with a lightning gun doesn't like a bad one. Only problem I see is the ammo type all these plasma-based weapons, but less solid ammo based ones. New ammo type (with a few of the weapons migrating over to it) and a lightning gun replacement for machinegun might not be such a bad idea.

If the LG replaces the MG, then we will only have one weapon that uses bullet ammo, the rifle. I always thought it was inconvenient at best to have a whole ammo (shells) type dedicated to one gun (SG). with TWO ammo types dedicated to ONE gun each, it would be quite unbalanced. If this replacement does happen, I would suggest making the SG use bullet ammo.

The ammo for weapons would have to change in my opinion. Some weapons will have to migrate to a different ammo type (hagar could probably use lead... maybe) and a new type would possibly have to be introduced to get rid of the problem of their being to many plasma weapons.

*facepalms at the sight of Flying Steel's response*

*Notices Flying Steel's lack of a valid argument in comparison to the other posts on this thread*

Lee_Stricklin, could you please be a good boy and not a mentruating bitch? When we just start a constructive talk on the balance you keep posting this shit.

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As for the electro being a great weapon. I have played nexuiz. I have played it vs experienced players. And what I can say is that electro was never much threat. From what I've seen only inexperienced players can be sucessfully fraged with it. And though it is usefull on some maps and gamemods it seemed to me almost useless in CA, TDM, 1v1.

Anyway, what I don't understand is why the new electro secondary is in any way worse then the old one? You can easily set it off with primary.

@Captain_Spam

I laughed so hard

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On a proper note, I am surprised people are all for removing the machinegun (Not that I am against it), but I am surprised how much people kick off about the electro turning into the lightning gun, I mean if your happy to remove the machinegun..and I see your argument is because there effectively the same..no actually there not, as machinegun acts different and it's secondary fire mode is completely different, why not just take out the electro and make something new, or is it because certain people would not allow this?

tZork, why don't you introduce on the machinegun those settings you had when I tested it, the one where it acts like a minigun/gattling gun, impressive fire-rate, easy enough to hit with low-close-medium distances but with that spread you did..the spread was nice didn't go too wide, and I liked how it was different to the old MG, it ate ammo quickly though which was it's drawback but it was really an effective weapon close up..it killed quickly but you still need to have a good aim. I can be honest and say the MG in fruitbalance kind of went backwards as the balance moved along

Anyhow do you still have them settings? I tweaked it before to try it out with fruitiex..not big changes just some damage changes and something else, if you still have them why not apply them and see what people think to it as I think that was completely different to the old MG..yes it was similar to Q2s chaingun, but it's a lot of fun and acts differently.

I said 'If', not 'when' or 'please'. But yes, I was surprised at the response too.

MG has spread and LG does not, if you take away the spread then you tempt redundancy.

I'm probably going to get burnt for saying this, but we could but Bolt on secondary and keep Shaft on primary.

Edit: now that I think about it, this^^ idea isn't so bad because we have the mine layer now.