Planning for major weapon updates

TL;DR? Summary of changes at the bottom.

This thread is just to concentrate and discuss the ideas which I have for the behaviors of Xonotic weapons. Many times i've brought up some of these changes before in separate conversations, but I think it would benefit everyone if I bring them into one place so they can be discussed BEFORE we piss off the community in some way because of them. Specifically these are ideas which require code changes, and are almost regardless of the balance which they are controlled by as the behavior would be the same throughout all balances. Because of this, please try and avoid any balance discussion and more focus upon the concepts proposed. If reasoning for an idea does mention balance, just keep it on track and don't let it stray from the concept itself. Thank you.

Quick note: For almost all of these ideas, I both know how to and am willing to code them.

Now, i'll break this up into separate sections for each weapon or topic and their respective change. If and when you reply, please quote per-concept and stick to one thought at a time. This keeps the thread going in an easy to manage and understand conversation. Obviously since this post is so large, it would be very difficult to go about a discussion in any different way.

P.S.: I'm adding status indicators to each of these so you can see where they stand currently. Finished: currently in the game, In progress: currently being developed, New: new idea which is just being considered (not coded yet), Updated: revised to something else, Abandoned: completely abandoned.

New weapon: Lightning Gun (Status: In progress)

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Basics and reasoning: This would be a new gun using cell ammo which takes the lightning function off the primary of the Electro, improves it, and places it on a more suitable weapon. The goal specifically for removing this from the Electro is because it rather ruins the Electro' best function - the Electro combo. You see, in order to balance the Lightning Gun, there has to be a distance limitation on the beam else it is simply too powerful. If you make the beam too long, it is too easy to use (especially for pros) and it becomes "the new nex." - the dominating weapon. If you make the beam too short respective to the Electro, then the combo becomes useless at even a small distance. Hence why moving the lightning to another gun would be most ideal, as it keeps both the lightning function and the Electro function intact.

Primary: Specific updates over the Electro implementation of the primary would be along the lines of:

1. Lightning jumps between all (possibly just enemies) entities near whatever entity is hit by lightning at the moment (Technically possible and probably easy enough to code)
   
2. The beam would be more dynamic/free flowing instead of perfectly rigid (This would be possible to some extent from my knowledge, i'm not entirely sure how to bend the beam though - that's what i'm primarily wanting)
   
3. It would have almost an entire visual and audible overhaul with new thunder sound as well as new effects (the sound aspect of this I maybe can do myself, the visual aspect of new effects I might need morphed's help for -- he is excellent at that after all )
   

Secondary: There are currently two secondary ideas which I have for the Lightning Gun weapon, however i'm of course open to more if you have any ideas. Firstly is a type of EMP blast with short range but a strong shockwave. Mainly would do high damage, and maybe even could do something "special" to whatever enemy it touches. An example would be causing the enemies weapons to malfunction in some way... though this sounds incredibly weird/hard to code, it is just an example. Do you have a better suggestion for an EMP? Anyway, the second proposal is something like a very slow moving BFG secondary -- slower than Nexuiz rockets, even. It would explode upon impact blasting a lightning shock to anything nearby, and it can be thrown/propelled/controlled by the primary through the air. This to me is a more fun secondary, but we'll see if it's really viable. A counterpart/visually similar concept could be the half life gravity gun when wielding an energy orb. Though the energy orb would be much slower (and wouldn't bounce) in this case, the concept can be considered KINDA the same in how the primary would manipulate it.

Merge Hagar and Seeker (Status: New)

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Basics and reasoning: Essentially this consists of two main actions: Remove the Hagar weapon, and adapt the Seeker to have functionality which is similar to Hagar. The main reason for this is that these weapons could be considered fairly similar in the fact that they can rapidly shoot tiny rockets, and it would be rather redundant if we were to make models for both of them. The other reason is that the Hagar functionality alone really isn't all that good, it's more of a spam weapon than anything. I also want to get rid of the FLAC (current Seeker secondary) because it is just pure spam and causes lag for many people. Anyway, here's the rest of the proposal:

Primary: This would be just the normal tag/Seeker primary with rockets that follow whatever the tag hits. Specifics on how this works is up to the balance.

Secondary: This would be a compromise between the Hagar primary and the Seeker secondary. The goal for the old Seeker secondary was to be able to kill projectiles (mostly enemy Seeker rockets) easily with a short range fire mode (an FLAC). I want to make this actually almost exactly like the Hagar primary mode, but with something special: The rockets fired from this secondary would automatically explode when a non-friendly entity (such as a projectile) is near -- So this way you can easily kill enemy rockets, AND use it as a Hagar-y weapon. This is actually quite easy to code too, and I think it's fairly unique.

EDIT: Over IRC I actually came up with a slightly different idea for the weapon (mostly primary) --

Instead of the primary automatically shooting rockets when you tag someone, what if it instead just set a waypointsprite on that player (For ~5 seconds) and if you fired the secondary they would seak after tag. But since the secondary is more rapid fire, would could make them have a very low guide rate -- essentially this requires a lot more feedback from the player, and also would be more fun to have waypointsprites.

HLAC removal OR severe rework (Status: New)

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To compensate for the addition of the Lightning Gun, it is important to balance out the cell weapons again (as there would be too many cell weapons compared to other weapons by doing this). Personally I am for simply removing the HLAC altogether, as it is the least unique of any weapon in the game. It basically ripped off the laser, Hagar, AND Uzi all at the same time. It also is seen as a huge spam weapon to most people, especially the primary.

But for the sake of keeping all options open: divVerent had an idea of: instead of merging Hagar with Seeker, merge the Hagar and HLAC together. Basically it would work like this: The weapon would be transformed into a rocket using ammo type, and it would have just the normal Hagar primary with miniature rockets fired in a burst of ~10 on secondary.

I think that this really isn't all that good, since my idea for the Seeker secondary makes the Seeker more fun/useful than this primary and the secondary burst for this new gun really isn't all that good. (We already have a gun with huge spread that first multiple shots.... Actually, we have two: Crylink and Shotgun)

Most of this is just my opinion, and that's what it'll really come down to. So to sum it up: I think the HLAC should just simply be removed, and the Seeker/Hagar should be merged. Besides, we already have a ton of rocket weapons. See below where I explain the ammo type usage.

"Needles" - New ammo type (Status: New)

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Basics and reasoning: This is one of the larger updates I would attempt, but it also has the most support from others as well. The concept is this: Replace the "bullets" (nails, shells) in the game with "needles," a type of hitscan energy projectile similar to bullets but more futuristic and green. The weapons affected by this change would be primarily the Uzi, Sniper Rifle, and Shotgun. The latter two of these weapons would fire a collection of multiple needles at once (effectively, not actually -- sniper would still just be 1 needle technically, but would drain ~10 needle ammo at once), Sniper Rifle with no spread and Shotgun with normal Shotgun spread. The main reasoning behind this concept is to bring more variety/color into the weapons, and to make the weapons more futuristic.

The largest problem with this update is this: Uzi, Sniper Rifle, and Shotgun would all need new models, new effects, and new sounds. Other than that it is easy to do. Another problem is that this will bring the total count of ammo types down from 4 to 3, meaning it would maybe be important to add another type. (It is always better to have an even number of ammo types for the HUD) There was discussion about splitting up the cell ammo type to "batteries" and cells respectively, but i'll talk about this later in the thread.

Important note: "Needles" maybe is a bad name for the ammo type, that's why for now it is just a suggestion for the name. If you have any better suggestions for the name, please submit them. Avoid anything with the games title in it (even partially), and avoid anything too cheesy.

Bouncing explosions for Crylink secondary (Status: In progress)

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With the changes listed before, all of them indicate something you may miss: The total removal of the Hagar secondary. The Hagar secondary is a bouncing rocket- It hits a surface once, bounces, and then explodes when it hits the next surface. The key difference here is that it is rapid fire and precise, unlike the Crylink primary. What I propose is this: Replace the current Crylink secondary (TYPO FIXED!, THIS WAS WRONG BEFORE) with bouncing explosions of energy, but the way it works is this: Each time it bounces, it does an explosion - And by doing that, it gains more speed each time (2 bounces in total). This would mean you can PRECISELY hit enemies much easier then with primary, and of course it would be rapid fire just like Hagar secondary.

Some argue that the current Crylink secondary is adequate and doesn't need replacing, but I personally disagree. Sure it works, but the problem is that: I can do the exact same thing with the primary of the Crylink as I can with the secondary. Also: If you make the damage too high on the secondary to compensate for such high spread, you make it overpowered for game modes such as onslaught or assault where your goal is to destroy an objective.

Regardless of if the current secondary is already good, wouldn't this idea be better? It is more unique in its function and usefulness.

Sniper Rifle bullets explode (Status: New)

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This idea is essentially for one way to make the Sniper Rifle unique and genuinely more useful depending on the situation. It goes as follows: Bullets (or needles, depending on if that will be done) will explode when they stick inside a target. Here's the thing, the bullets will only stay inside a target after a certain distance. If the bullet hits a player at too short of a distance, it will simply pass through the player and explode elsewhere. This is so that the gun REALLY IS only more useful as a sniper, and can't be used very effectively at short/medium range. The reasoning for this is to separate it more from the Nexgun, giving them separate roles in a battle. It also is to stop its overuse in close range battles, as it would then only be very good for sniping.

An important note to make here (especially for tZork) is: It would have visual cues in the path of the bullet itself -- you can see exactly where the bullet "Activates" and is ready to explode using this. That distance is yet to be determined though, it's up to the balancer.

Something related to this: If we do this, I also suggest making the Nexgun have falloff again.. That way it would be even more obvious that Nexgun is for short/medium range, and Sniper Rifle is for long range. The only problem is that we need to find a way to indicate to the user the distance of their shot -- it needs to be predictable and not totally random. I'll be discussing this later with tZork and divVerent and maybe we can come up with some solution.

Split up of Cell ammo type weapons (Status: New)

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If you take a count of the amount of weapons using which ammo type, you'll see something interesting... Right now (CURRENTLY!) there are 2 bullet-type (nails: Uzi, Sniper Rifle) weapons, 1 shell-type (shells: Shotgun) weapon, 6 rocket-type (Mortar, Minelayer, Hagar, Rocket Launcher, Fireball, Seeker), and 5 cell-type weapons (Electro, Crylink, Nexgun, hook gun sorta, HLAC)

After the changes I plan/want it would be 3 needle type (Shotgun, Uzi, Sniper Rifle moved to needle type), 4 rocket-type (Fireball would become "special" and the Hagar would be removed), but there would still be 5 cell-type weapons. That may not sound like much, but that really is just too large of a portion over other ammo types. I'd say between 2 and 4 per ammo type is okay, but more is just too much. Anyway: The best solution I heard of (which would also solve another issue of only have 3 ammo typos with the needles idea) would be creating a new ammo type to split up the cell weapons into two separate ammo types. This also matches the idea of making alien and human weapons, where alien weapons would use cells and human weapons would use something else.

The suggestion I heard (by Taoki iirc... or maybe someone else, sorry) was to create a "batteries" ammo type (could use a new name.. suggestions?) -- this type would be used for example with the Nexgun -- where it "charges" its batteries to fire or something similar. It's hard to really determine how it should be used though, so it needs a lot more examining... especially on which weapons should use it.

Fireball and "superweapons" (Status: In progress)

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Finally lets talk about the Fireball gun. You probably haven't heard or seen anything about the Fireball in a long time, and this is because it was never really finished or balanced. I was thinking about it earlier and had an idea on my server... wouldn't it be fun of the Fireball was on par with the minstanex in a way, and you could have those weapons given to you as a powerup spawned in the middle of the map for a short amount of time (or with a limited number of shots)

Basically let me be more direct: The Fireball would be remade to only have one fire mode -- the primary would shoot Fireballs, and that's it. Also: A powerup would be made which can be placed on a map, and it would spawn randomly timed (between 5 and 15 minutes delay) where someone could pick it up and have a limited number of shots with it. Of course, the minstanex would be nerfed slightly for this (lower refire, etc) but the general idea is that: You can have superweapon powerups, and these weapons would never be seen outside of a mutator.




Alright, that is basically everything I wanted to talk about I think... WELL THAT'S A NICE WALL OF TEXT RIGHT THURRRRR ISN'T IT? -- I hope it isn't too overwhelming to read


To reinstate: Here's just a quick summary of the changes I want:

• Remove lightning from Electro and create a separate gun for it with a new/unique secondary
  
• Move the Hagar Primary mode onto the Seeker secondary with a small twist (automatic detonation near entities)
  
• Remove the Hagar and HLAC.
  
• Replace nails and shells with "Needles" ammo type, updating the weapons to fit the new style
  
• Crylink secondary is given a mutated form of the Hagar secondary which explodes for every bounce.
  
• Sniper Rifle bullets would explode when they stick inside a target, and only after a certain distance.
  
• Cell ammo would be split up so that there aren't too many weapons using the same ammo type.
  
• Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.
  

Don't reply unless you read the actual concept above for these changes... that's just an argument from ignorance


Thanks for reading, please keep your replies civil. Only a few of these are DEFINITELY going to happen, so it's not set in stone yet.

Awesome ideas in that post, looking forward to having my balance broken by that I especially like the idea of the lightning gun zapping multiple targets, kinda like the one that was in Radiant Silvergun as well as the not-so-simple merge the Hagar and TAG. That TAG/Hagar merge secondary sounds really cool and I like the idea of a few tiny rockets following the tag round whether it hits someone or not. The camping rifle rounds sounds pretty cool too, the only thing I don't want to see happen is the rifle be treated as THE sniping weapon, when the nex has proven to be the best for that role. The twist on the Crylink is definitely a good way to reserve the hagar secondary, while FINALLY giving the weapon a good/unique secondary. Tweaks like that will REALLY set this game apart from every other twitch/arena shooter in existence right now, while potentially keeping everything we liked about Nexuiz. I'm completely for all the changes mentioned above, save maybe the introduction of the FIREBALL!1!!1!one!!

I am really liking some of the things I am seeing here. here are a few notes:

crylink: at one point, the secondary was a rapid fire low spread thing. I would say just make that the primary and make it bounce, and that would work fine.

sniper rifle: to explain why sniper rifle takes 10 needles for one shot, we could say that it fires a cluster of 10 needles formed into a single projectile, and when it hits a target, it fires the needles outward in every direction. I would, say there would be a small pause between the hit and the needles, and if you start moving very quickly, you can avoid most of the damage from them. However, if you get hit by the main projectile and all 10 of the sub-projectiles, it kills you no matter what. basically the only way this would happen is if you stand in one place after getting shot. (note: this would need a very distinctive sound to indicate that you had been hit by the sniper, and to indicate how much time you had before the second explosion. like maybe a hit followed by a slow whine that starts to increase in volume and pitch.)

for "battery" ammo type name suggestion:
volt core
(or just "core")

lighting gun secondary: you could make it a ball of energy that sticks to the first surface it touches and shoots out lighting at anything that comes near. could almost be used in a similar method as the mine layer. you would only be able to fire one at a time, and couldn't fire another until the first one was gone. shooting at the energy ball would destroy it.

maybe for fun, you could make it stick to players

Weapons wise this sounds like a fine idea, just don't mess up the health system and everything will be fine

Be careful not to make the crylink secondary overpowered; if it explodes identically both at bounce and hit then everyone will be aiming for the floor below a player and get double the damage...

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Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.

Idea: once you've picked one up, you can't switch away until the timelimit/shot limit is used up. Then another idea for a superweapon would be a melee only shotgun, where each hit kills

I like the ideas to remove the HLAC and merging the hagar and seeker. I never really liked the HLAC, and there are already too many weapons.

For new bullet type: How about rails? We could say that the SG, CR SR, and MG are all railguns. The SG shreds the rail as it leaves the barrel, and the uzi is not perfectly accurate because the barrel is so short. The green colour is caused by the copper coating peeling off and burning up in flight.

Split cell type: The cell type could stay as an electrical type (a battery is just a group of cells, but "cells" sounds so much cooler), and we could just add plasma as the new type for the electro and crylink. That leaves the nex and the hook as the only weapons to use cells, making it much easier to balance the nex.

• Remove lightning from Electro and create a separate gun for it with a new/unique secondary
  +1, just have no idea for a secondary at the moment.
  
  

• Move the Hagar Primary mode onto the Seeker secondary with a small twist (automatic detonation near entities)
  +1 (read suggestion later)
  
  

• Remove the Hagar and HLAC.
  +1
  
  

• Crylink secondary is given a mutated form of the Hagar secondary which explodes for every bounce. -1
  
  Yes, remove Hagar and HLAC and move the Hagar function to the T.A.G. Seeker (Hagar and HLAC are basically the same anyway).
  I disagree with the Crylink suggestion here, cause I like it. I understand that you want to keep Hagars secondary. I suggest to move the Hagar secondary (instead of primary) to the T.A.G. Seeker secondary, so basically the projectiles can bounce once.
  
  

• Replace nails and shells with "Needles" ammo type, updating the weapons to fit the new style
  +1
  
  

• Sniper Rifle bullets would explode when they stick inside a target, and only after a certain distance.
  +1 , I followed the IRC discussion and it sounds like a good solution to me.
  
  

• Cell ammo would be split up so that there aren't too many weapons using the same ammo type.
  I'm not sure which weapons that use cells should get a new ammo type.
  I think 3 ammo types could work, especially if HLAC gets removed. Then we would have 4 "rocket weapons" (Mortar, Mine Layer, Rocket Launcher, Hagar/Seeker), 3 "needles weapons" (MG, Rifle, Shotgun) and 4 "cell weapons" (Nex, Electro, Crylink, Lightning Gun). I guess in a HUD it could look like a triangle.
  Where is Hook?
  |
  v
  
  

• Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.
  +1, but I would not add the MinstaNex, because its just to easy to rape (base camping/spawn killing) with it in a 'normal mode' game.
  In my opinion all the weapons that are not placed anyway usually could superweapons: Fireball, Grappling Hook, Port-O-Launch (even Jetpack?).
  

HLAC shouldn't be removed. It's the ultimate gun to keep the enemy shielders away from the flag in CTF. :)

> we could just add plasma as the new type for the electro and crylink.

Would you carry plasma in your pocket? No, you'll probably create some right before each shot using some powerful energy source.

Do you have a better suggestion for an EMP?

How about something that affects your target's vision? Their screen could go slightly fuzzy if they get hit.

Also, instead of removing the HLAC, why not give it a unique function? Maybe it could work like the Lucifer Cannon from Tremulous, i.e. a chargeable projectile with high damage, high splash, low speed.

Regarding LG primary: how do you distribute the damage dealt by the weapon if I am shooting (hitting) a player that is inside a group of hostiles? Does the damage multiply? Or is it distributed (i.e. divided) among/through the number of players hit at the same time?

Regarding LG primary: how do you distribute the damage dealt by the weapon if I am shooting (hitting) a player that is inside a group of hostiles? Does the damage multiply? Or is it distributed (i.e. divided) among/through the number of players hit at the same time?

I would just leave the damage unchanged on the player you are hitting, and perhaps give half the damage to nearby players.

hope it balances out nicely Samuel.


Some Comments

- As i have proposed in the past a "Jump pad gun" would be a nice defensive and constructive weapon. It now appears in Portal 2! Although I'm not sure what weapon it would fit into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zeovh7fd...ure=relmfu

- The hanger if you don't wish it to be removed obtains the smart missile functionality we have discussed in the past.

- Fuel can always be made an ammo type, making an even number of ammo types.

[*]Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.

+1, but I would not add the MinstaNex, because its just to easy to rape (base camping/spawn killing) with it in a 'normal mode' game.
In my opinion all the weapons that are not placed anyway usually could superweapons: Fireball, Grappling Hook, Port-O-Launch (even Jetpack?).

What would be so 'super' about the Portolaunch or the Jetpack? Also about the MinstaNex: that's why you should be able to use those superweapons for idk, just like 1 minute or so.

I think there should be more powerups than Shield and Quad anyway, e.g. a speedup one (not sure if this one would make sense though since Xonotic is already that fast), a regeneration one with which your health would gradually increase until it reaches 200 or the effect times out, or simply team based powerups that give everyone of your team the advantage, by giving for example everyone of your team 100 armor and 100 health.

restoring old electro:
that is fine by me, but didnt people complain about it being to similar to the rocket launcher?

lightning primary:
i dont like 100% precision and constant damage. thats too simple, and there is nothing to learn about handling this weapon. it also must not be static like teh current lightning, thats too boring. maybe the "flowing" could be combined with some inaccuracy. edit: i also don't like the idea of the lighting hitting others in the near of the first target. thats just like free extra damage and again nothing you need to learn.
lighning secondary:
a slow, powerful missile/whatever does not fit to the fast and agile style of the lightning. i like the idea of a short range emp shockwave. my idea would be that the enemies would be electrified for one or two seconds: the view is blurred or has some other kind of defect, and the player would do uncontrolled movements like spastic twitching or whatever. in short aiming should be heavily hindered for a short time. edit: theShadows idea for a ball which is firing lightnings at anything that comes near is also good. but the shockwave is more unique.

merge hagar and seeker:
that merge sound perfect; i never understood the hagar secondary. the new firemodes have the same style (intelligent rockets) and really do fit together.

HLAC:
i agree that the HLAC should be removed or reworked. while not having an idea for reworking it, i see a problem in removing it because we have one potential alien weapon less then. the crylink and the lighting gun are the only real alien-style guns then (maybe electro too). -1 for merging hagar and hlac.

merging shells and bullet ammo:
it could be a problem that your starting weapon already has some ammo for other weapons. with 20 needles as starting ammo you have 2 free sniper shots. an idea for that (you probably wont like it): the shotgun has maybe 20 free shots of its own ammo type (which is shown in the hud), but those should be weaker than the current shotgun shots. BUT as soon as you get some needles, the shotgun ammo will be replaced by needles, and the shotgun projectiles will become stronger.

apart from that idea you could merge those ammo types without changing anything else, all three weapons would fire ordinary bullets then. changing that to green needles is just a cosmetic change and can be done later (only the exploding sniper rifle projecile would require that change).

bouncing explosions for crylink:
bouncing projectiles.... ok. doesnt make sense, but ok. but bouncing projectiles which explode on every bounce? how should that work? thats too fancy and unrealistic imo (i know this game is not realistic, but this is just too extreme). i would just remove the changing-direction-ability of the secondary projectiles and leave it at that.


sniper rifle bullets explode:
cool, but doesnt make sense. with the introuction of needles it could be explained, the 10 projectiles could act like a fragmentation grenade.

fireball as a superweapon
good idea. with small changes of the new fireball model those 4 things around the barrel could act as fuel containers for exactly 4 shots. mabe they could be thrown off after firing a shot, but i guess that is techincally not possible. or they could be visually emptied.... just an idea.


imo these things should be done first because they could make the most "problems" (read: complaints)
- merge hagar and seeker.
- new lightning gun, restore old electro.
- merge shells and bullets, but no change in the style of the weapons. (the problem of free starting ammo for teh mg and rifle needs to be decided on first)

the other changes are independent from everything else, like removing hlac or making the fireball a superweapon or changing single firemodes(crylink/rifle secondary) or only a change in style(bullets->needles).


overall good and reasonable ideas. i only dislike the idea for crylink secondary

don't remove my little HLAC!!! I love it <3 ;(

the shotgun has maybe 20 free shots of its own ammo type (which is shown in the hud), but those should be weaker than the current shotgun shots. BUT as soon as you get some needles, the shotgun ammo will be replaced by needles, and the shotgun projectiles will become stronger.

Great idea. It will please both those who say shotgun is a starting weapon and should be weak and those who say every weapon should be useful.

In regards to nex falloff damage, it simply isn't needed anymore and is a really frustrating 'feature' I never know how much damage I am doing when it is on.

IIUC you're going to split energy weapons into human and alien ones and they'll use different ammo. Let's just make something up for alien energy weapons. Something hinting at the word "energy".

lightning primary:
i dont like 100% precision and constant damage. thats too simple, and there is nothing to learn about handling this weapon.

Except aiming like an aimbot at insanely fast targets. And it's fucking awesome when you succeed.

maybe the "flowing" could be combined with some inaccuracy.

Already have that, it's called the Uzi...

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the shotgun has maybe 20 free shots of its own ammo type (which is shown in the hud), but those should be weaker than the current shotgun shots. BUT as soon as you get some needles, the shotgun ammo will be replaced by needles, and the shotgun projectiles will become stronger.

Great idea. It will please both those who say shotgun is a starting weapon and should be weak and those who say every weapon should be useful.

Or why not just remove the shotgun ammo type altogether? Have it shoot some weak, infinite ammo at targets if you don't have nails.

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Oh and apropos the sniper rifle, please make the secondary fire work as a reload key if you're still planning to have it reload. It's silly to have to waste one extra key just for that one weapon.

Or why not just remove the shotgun ammo type altogether? Have it shoot some weak, infinite ammo at targets if you don't have nails.

This sounds like a good idea and not too many games have implemented anything similar to it. Actually the only games that come to mind that did anything like that was LOADED and RE-LOADED which were single player/co-op top down shooters and had weapons that fired a weak infinite ammo type if you ran out of poison (or whatever the hell it was, the boxes had skull/crossbones on them so that's what I associated them with).

* FruitieX carefully suggests considering doing this on every weapon out there

Infinite weak ammo on each weapon, finite strong ammo. Could be interesting to say the least.

lightning primary:
i dont like 100% precision and constant damage. thats too simple, and there is nothing to learn about handling this weapon.

Except aiming like an aimbot at insanely fast targets. And it's fucking awesome when you succeed.

Actually I think making the electro lightning more random would probably increase my hitrate with it , but it wouldn't make the weapon more interesting in terms of "I want to learn how to use that weapon better", as randomness removes the possibility to get insanely good with that weapon. So if we get to have that lightning kind of weapon, imho it should be accurate.

I had a totally different idea about the mine layer. What if we'd merge mortar and mine layer so that we have primary fire like normal mortar (maybe with a little more push and a little less damage ), and two secondary fire modes that go as follows:

if you release the secondary fire button before the grenade touches the ground, it acts as current mortar secondary. If you keep it pressed until the grenade touches something, then the grenade sticks there and becomes a proximity bomb once secondary fire button is released. Maybe you can even detonate the sticky grenade by pressing primary while still holding the secondary.

Remote detonation for multiple grenades could then still be done if the grenades are reasonably close to each other (detonation splash damage sets off the other grenades too). That way we'd only lose the feature of detonating multiple grenades remotely that are spread apart, which I personally don't find that useful.

IF we find the mortar gets too overpowered as ONE weapon by that, then we could make the mine layer function a powerup to the mortar that is a seperate pickup item and works only if you already have a mortar.

The trouble I have with the mine layer is that I think it's useful alright but I can never actually use it efficiently during fight. The sticky grenades we had for a while though were something that added to the dogfighting quite a lot. It would be much more usable if we could merge the functions into one weapon. The combo between mines and mortar aren't really feasible atm.

What do you think?

Edit: I think in case this idea receives consideration the grenades should follow a colorscheme that makes it easily distinguishable what firemode is being used. Like they could have little blue lights as long as the secondary fire button is pressed (sticky nade), red lights when it has become a proximity bomb, yellow lights if it has turned into a current secondary fire grenade and green lights if it is a primary fire grenade. Maybe it could also do a little "beep" upon function change, so an opponent would hear that. Feel free to mix the colors or add other colors or whatever. I don't know if it is possible to code that, but that would make it easier for the opponent to distinguish what is thrown at him and to react accordingly.

A combo-motivating thing would be if we made the rather easy to hit primary fire grenades deal less damage than the secondary sticky/proximity nades.

Another Edit: oh, was this off topic? As far as the title goes I thought it would fit, but reading the entry post I think maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, drop me a line and I will split my idea into a new thread.

I like these changes, here are some questions: will the hagar model be kept for the merged hagar? since its much much more detailed than the current T.A.G...
I'm quite curious how the new sniper rifle will turn out, and what its secondary going to be. (zoom?) i still think it shouldnt be *completely* usueless on close range eventho its a sniper rifle, at least give people the opportunity to defend themselves a bit better.

What do you think about giving the LG secondary an EMP function, that costs a lot of ammo (like 20) per shot, but as exchange it removes the shield from the target on a medium sized splash area? (maximum 75 shield) With high ammo consumtion it would not allow the player to spam this. Or a "flshbang" sorta electronic blast that blinds the target a bit within its radius? Both could turn out quite cool

Or a "flshbang" sorta electronic blast that blinds the target a bit within its radius? Both could turn out quite cool

I also thought about visibility imparing damages for a while, but I think it would be hard to code that in a way that you cannot circumvent this clientside, as the server will, unless totally blinding you, need to send the location of opponents or items to your client...

sniper rifle: to explain why sniper rifle takes 10 needles for one shot, we could say that it fires a cluster of 10 needles formed into a single projectile, and when it hits a target, it fires the needles outward in every direction. I would, say there would be a small pause between the hit and the needles, and if you start moving very quickly, you can avoid most of the damage from them. However, if you get hit by the main projectile and all 10 of the sub-projectiles, it kills you no matter what. basically the only way this would happen is if you stand in one place after getting shot. (note: this would need a very distinctive sound to indicate that you had been hit by the sniper, and to indicate how much time you had before the second explosion. like maybe a hit followed by a slow whine that starts to increase in volume and pitch.)

You kinda overcomplicated this in the forum post, but I very much so like the idea of exploding bullets like this too. It would also actually explain why so many needles are used. I'm not so sure we should have them go back though, it would be fine just doing that I think.

Weapons wise this sounds like a fine idea, just don't mess up the health system and everything will be fine

This is unrelated Don't bring it up on this thread

Be careful not to make the crylink secondary overpowered; if it explodes identically both at bounce and hit then everyone will be aiming for the floor below a player and get double the damage...

Well, thing is this: If one explosion hits the player, it never bounces/explodes again -- Basically, there is a feature where if any damage is done by a crylink projectile it automatically explodes. (_linkexplode cvar) -- That way you can't double up damage from a bounce.

Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.

Idea: once you've picked one up, you can't switch away until the timelimit/shot limit is used up. Then another idea for a superweapon would be a melee only shotgun, where each hit kills

I actually had planned something like this -- where you can't use any weapons other than the weapon you're given. It also means that the player doesn't waste the weapon by accidentally switching away and never noticing it.

For new bullet type: How about rails? We could say that the SG, CR SR, and MG are all railguns. The SG shreds the rail as it leaves the barrel, and the uzi is not perfectly accurate because the barrel is so short. The green colour is caused by the copper coating peeling off and burning up in flight.

I'm not so sure rails would be a good idea here -- especially since lots of people may confuse the nexgun for a railgun or something similar. But, maybe -- it sorta can fit.

Split cell type: The cell type could stay as an electrical type (a battery is just a group of cells, but "cells" sounds so much cooler), and we could just add plasma as the new type for the electro and crylink. That leaves the nex and the hook as the only weapons to use cells, making it much easier to balance the nex.

Well I actually may just abandon that idea and go for Diabolik's idea: All needle/rocket weapons are human weapons, and all cell weapons are alien weapons... Or something similar to this. We'll see, but plasma is okay for the most part.

Crylink secondary is given a mutated form of the Hagar secondary which explodes for every bounce.

-1
Yes, remove Hagar and HLAC and move the Hagar function to the T.A.G. Seeker (Hagar and HLAC are basically the same anyway).
I disagree with the Crylink suggestion here, cause I like it. I understand that you want to keep Hagars secondary. I suggest to move the Hagar secondary (instead of primary) to the T.A.G. Seeker secondary, so basically the projectiles can bounce once.

This one i'm torn on actually -- It maybe is too weird to have seeking rockets which bounce too, BUT it does solve the problem without annoying anyone... We'll see -- I want to see how the secondary for Crylink turns out first before I try that instead.

Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.

+1, but I would not add the MinstaNex, because its just to easy to rape (base camping/spawn killing) with it in a 'normal mode' game.
In my opinion all the weapons that are not placed anyway usually could superweapons: Fireball, Grappling Hook, Port-O-Launch (even Jetpack?).

Yeah, that's a good idea too -- But, of course the minstanex would be severely modified.. Maybe 2 second refire, etc etc, something similar. It also would have a limited amount of time/shots, so it's not like you can totally rape with it indefinitely. I would only add fireball/minstanex/hook though -- portolaunch isn't really a weapon (nor does it have much advantage), and jetpack already is a powerup.

HLAC shouldn't be removed. It's the ultimate gun to keep the enemy shielders away from the flag in CTF.
> we could just add plasma as the new type for the electro and crylink.
Would you carry plasma in your pocket? No, you'll probably create some right before each shot using some powerful energy source.

Well the seeker secondary would mostly work for this too, so no worries. Again, it's being removed because it's the most redundant weapon function with other weapons -- Also: The plasma thing perhaps is a good point, BUT WOULD YOU CARRY ROCKETS IN YOUR POCKET EITHER?

Do you have a better suggestion for an EMP?

How about something that affects your target's vision? Their screen could go slightly fuzzy if they get hit.
Also, instead of removing the HLAC, why not give it a unique function? Maybe it could work like the Lucifer Cannon from Tremulous, i.e. a chargeable projectile with high damage, high splash, low speed.

Unfortunately: Anything which effects someones vision will be totally hated, I swear to you it would become the most complained about gun. And if I do it, guess who has to deal with those complaints? That's probably not going to happen. Besides, it would be easy enough to get around.. just like r_fullbright change. As for the HLAC, that idea you suggested isn't even that unique -- the lightning gun secondary (non-EMP) will have high damage/high radius/low speed too. Besides, the name of the HLAC itself already indicates what weapon function it has

Regarding LG primary: how do you distribute the damage dealt by the weapon if I am shooting (hitting) a player that is inside a group of hostiles? Does the damage multiply? Or is it distributed (i.e. divided) among/through the number of players hit at the same time?

I would just leave the damage unchanged on the player you are hitting, and perhaps give half the damage to nearby players.

Yes, but actually I MOSTLY wanted to make that only a visual thing.. People were worried that it would be too easy to hit/damage people then, which is a valid point- But, I would make it really low radius and maybe even just very little damage.

As i have proposed in the past a "Jump pad gun" would be a nice defensive and constructive weapon. It now appears in Portal 2! Although I'm not sure what weapon it would fit into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zeovh7fd...ure=relmfu
- The hanger if you don't wish it to be removed obtains the smart missile functionality we have discussed in the past.
- Fuel can always be made an ammo type, making an even number of ammo types.

I'm not so sure about the jump pad gun, I don't think it would fit very well -- especially since there is no gun it would be useful on -- I mean, even hook gun which is the only movement gun that makes sense for this, it can't have it either since the hook gun already has a much more useful primary. As for hagar: But I do wish for it to be removed And for fuel: that maybe isn't a bad idea, we'll see -- I'll ask divVerent what he thinks about that later, as I think fuel being something separate is kinda weird.

I think there should be more powerups than Shield and Quad anyway, e.g. a speedup one (not sure if this one would make sense though since Xonotic is already that fast), a regeneration one with which your health would gradually increase until it reaches 200 or the effect times out, or simply team based powerups that give everyone of your team the advantage, by giving for example everyone of your team 100 armor and 100 health.

Good idea, but off topic.

@jaykay: Oh god i'm sorry but theres just no way I can reply to all that I think we mostly agree though, so thanks.

don't remove my little HLAC!!! I love it <3 ;(

This is exactly the argument we should avoid

In regards to nex falloff damage, it simply isn't needed anymore and is a really frustrating 'feature' I never know how much damage I am doing when it is on.

Like I said, falloff would only ever be used again if there was a good visual representation of how much damage the gun will do. IF we can accomplish that though, it certainly should be done. The only reason it was removed in the past was because it lacked a visual indication.

the shotgun has maybe 20 free shots of its own ammo type (which is shown in the hud), but those should be weaker than the current shotgun shots. BUT as soon as you get some needles, the shotgun ammo will be replaced by needles, and the shotgun projectiles will become stronger.

Great idea. It will please both those who say shotgun is a starting weapon and should be weak and those who say every weapon should be useful.

Or why not just remove the shotgun ammo type altogether? Have it shoot some weak, infinite ammo at targets if you don't have nails.

To me this idea is okay-ish, but how? And what should it look like? Personally i'd just rather have you spawn with needles too, OR have the gun use reload and pre-load it with X amount of shots. But, yes if those first two questions can be answered then this could be a good idea.

At your idea to do this for EVERY weapon..... You're insane ;3 I really don't know how that could work.. for example: HOW DO YOU FIRE A ROCKETLAUNCHER WITHOUT ROCKETS? Just a thought.

Oh and apropos the sniper rifle, please make the secondary fire work as a reload key if you're still planning to have it reload. It's silly to have to waste one extra key just for that one weapon.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh I think it makes much more sense to have the sniper rifle have a sniper scope That does make you question what to do with the nexgun secondary too, but well... that's another issue for another time.

...
I had a totally different idea about the mine layer. What if we'd merge mortar and mine layer so that we have primary fire like normal mortar (maybe with a little more push and a little less damage ), and two secondary fire modes that go as follows:

...

What do you think?

Another Edit: oh, was this off topic? As far as the title goes I thought it would fit, but reading the entry post I think maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, drop me a line and I will split my idea into a new thread.

Eh well the minelayer actually was originally part of the mortar, and we explored that a lot but it just wasn't all that good. I don't think it's a good idea to do that again honestly. There are other ways to make this work. And: It wasn't that far off topic, it's still talking about code changes which would affect balance totally.

I like these changes, here are some questions: will the hagar model be kept for the merged hagar? since its much much more detailed than the current T.A.G...
I'm quite curious how the new sniper rifle will turn out, and what its secondary going to be. (zoom?) i still think it shouldnt be *completely* usueless on close range eventho its a sniper rifle, at least give people the opportunity to defend themselves a bit better.

Like I said above, secondary imo should be zoom -- Also: There's a new model being made for the seeker, so relax. http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=1609

What do you think about giving the LG secondary an EMP function, that costs a lot of ammo (like 20) per shot, but as exchange it removes the shield from the target on a medium sized splash area? (maximum 75 shield) With high ammo consumtion it would not allow the player to spam this. Or a "flshbang" sorta electronic blast that blinds the target a bit within its radius? Both could turn out quite cool

What do you mean shield? As in, armor? Not sure how that could work visually, may be hard to figure out what it does for a new player. tbh I think i'm going to abandon the EMP idea in favor of the mini black hole idea.





Whew.. that was a fun reply... Anyway: Thank you everyone for your input so far - It has already improved upon some of the ideas said in the OP and i'm glad everyone could keep it civil/on topic. (so far)

• Remove lightning from Electro and create a separate gun for it with a new/unique secondary

+1, I've argued to include both ever since there was an issue. I vote for a shockwave secondary that pushes your opponents away from you.

• Move the Hagar Primary mode onto the Seeker secondary with a small twist (automatic detonation near entities)

+1, although I might suggest making the secondary also automatically tracking, I've always wanted a fire-and-forget weapon.

• Remove the Hagar and HLAC.

Neutral. The Hagar should defifinatly be removed if we merge it with the Seeker, but I really don't care about the HLAC. It's fun, but hard to balance on maps because of it's insane ammo usage. Edit: I've got a friend who I introduced to the game about two weeks ago who says the HLAC is a favorite.

• Replace nails and shells with "Needles" ammo type, updating the weapons to fit the new style

+1, never could figure out why the weaker spawn weapon had it's own ammo type. But get a new name

• Crylink secondary is given a mutated form of the Hagar secondary which explodes for every bounce.

+1, but it might be overpowered so we'd have playtest it and give it a lot of tweaks.

• Sniper Rifle bullets would explode when they stick inside a target, and only after a certain distance.

-1, the insane weapon switch delay is enough to kill you in a short range fight anyway, and IMHO this brushes aside the SR's best feature, the headshot.

• Cell ammo would be split up so that there aren't too many weapons using the same ammo type.

+1, balancing is great, nothing really to add here.

• Superweapons would be added, which are basically just powerups which you can pick up like strength: Timelimit + shot limit. Fireball would be one of these.

+1, except I would make it shot limit only, and also give it a 'charging' sprite like current powerups have. Also I think it would be a curse more than a blessing if you couldn't switch weapons.

Don't reply unless you read the actual concept above for these changes... that's just an argument from ignorance

+1, please no unproductive spam.
...

Oh and apropos the sniper rifle, please make the secondary fire work as a reload key if you're still planning to have it reload. It's silly to have to waste one extra key just for that one weapon.

+1, this was actually my idea and I still support it especially considering that we've put a zoom on the Nex secondary. I actually bound my zoom key to 'B' (although 'V' would work too) and I think it would be good to move default to one of these instead of the scroll wheel, which tends to switch your weapons when you try to zoom with it (very annoying).