[SUGGESTION] Re-writing of CTF game code (want new ideas)

Alright, a few days ago I started re-writing the CTF code cleanly from scratch - The goal is to make the code more modular and more efficient, and just plain to clean it up while moving it to the new mutator system. This however also gives me an opportunity to easily add new features (within reason) to the mode. That's why i'm creating this thread.

Basically, I want your suggestions for possible enhancements to the CTF base game mode. Let me just first get a few things out of the way so we can keep the thread moving forward:

• If an idea has already been suggested in another thread, then okay: Link me to that thread and i'll respond to it in this thread.
  
  
• There are some things which the CTF game code actually doesn't control - for example, "auto team balance." I don't have the time to cover autobalance right now, so please don't bring it up here.
  
  
• Along with #2, I can't really change anything which requires map edits++. So don't expect me to be able to add ideas which require lots of manual changes to maps.
  
  
• Aesthetic (visual/effect) enhancement ideas are welcome too as long as they aren't too difficult to do.
  

As always, keep it on subject and be nice ^_^



By the way: If this works out, I plan on doing the same thing for the other game modes I will re-write/improve.

CTF is just awesome as it is now!

I'm not sure if it's fixed in Xonotic (I haven't tried to test it) but in Nexuiz 2.52 CTF there was a bug where if you got one person from Team A and one from Team B, and got the one from Team A to stand over Team B's flag, with the member of Team B standing on top of the member of Team A, the member of Team A could type "+use" and keep throwing the flag just above there heads, where the player from Team B would automatically return it. The flag would then go back to it's original position, and the Team A player would pick it up and drop it (because of +use) and the cycle would go on. This made insanely high scores (think: 25,000 caps) easy to achieve.

Also, with cheats enabled, +button8 can move the flag. This means players can hide the flag and *totally* screw the game.

Problem is, both of these aren't necessarily bugs.

In that scenario, the following would happen exactly:

1. Player from A gets the flag ("pickup" score)
2. Player from A uses +use (this is included by the "suicidedrop" score)
3. Player from B returns the flag ("return" score)
4. Goto 1

This should give 0 caps, and a personal total score of pickup_base-suicidedrop = 0 for team A's player, and 3 points to team B's player (for one return). The game can't be decided by this, only B's player can rack up personal score by it. And in the scoreboard it'll be quite obvious which two players are doing this - so, just kick them then.

As for +button8: it's a cheat, what do you expect.

I would suggest removing the penalty for dropping the flag to discourage camping.

On visual effects, the 'smoke' that comes out when you cap can be quite visually taxing (well, depending how much other stuff is visible from the base too) so I suggest making a glow of the team color (for red it would look kind of like a laser shot with the graphics turned down). If you don't know what I mean I can post screenshot later.

Once I also suggested adding multiple team support for ctf, but that's awfully similar to keyhunt.

If its possible, perhaps you should add points for flag cap assists and the like. It was done in Q3 Team Arena and I always thought it was a nice idea. It gives the supporting players a feeling of achievement for helping out and hopefully encourages team work.

I would suggest removing the penalty for dropping the flag to discourage camping.

On visual effects, the 'smoke' that comes out when you cap can be quite visually taxing (well, depending how much other stuff is visible from the base too) so I suggest making a glow of the team color (for red it would look kind of like a laser shot with the graphics turned down). If you don't know what I mean I can post screenshot later.

Once I also suggested adding multiple team support for ctf, but that's awfully similar to keyhunt.

This penalty already is removed - we have switched CTF balance since Nexuiz.

Ehh well we also have improved this since Nexuiz, and for me it has no issue with FPS now - but, the glow could be interesting - I actually think a better idea would be the kind of glow which comes from e.g. the secondary drop of the hook gun.... I think. We'll see - please try and make that screenshot anyway though ^_^

That _IS_ keyhunt with team mates that don't move ^_^

If its possible, perhaps you should add points for flag cap assists and the like. It was done in Q3 Team Arena and I always thought it was a nice idea. It gives the supporting players a feeling of achievement for helping out and hopefully encourages team work.

That seems kind of tricky to detect - I mean, how can we know if a player assisted a flag carrier?
The best possible way I can see this working is if:

enemy attacks flag carrier
team mate attacks enemy
team mate kills enemy
flag carrier captures flag
team mate gets assist

I don't know how to track this from code at all (there is one messy way I can think of, but......)



Anyway keep the feedback coming -- even small ideas are welcome. On IRC i've gotten a few as well: show WHO picked up the flag (on your team) in a centerprint, and use the throwing action instead of dropping action for the flag... Minor tweaks which can make a difference..

and use the throwing action instead of dropping action for the flag...

Being able to throw the flag? No.

Tbh I don't see anything wrong with CTF atm.

Anyway keep the feedback coming -- even small ideas are welcome. On IRC i've gotten a few as well: show WHO picked up the flag (on your team) in a centerprint, and use the throwing action instead of dropping action for the flag... Minor tweaks which can make a difference..

Maybe show the name in the HUD panel that shows if a team holds a flag etc. (long names need to cut obviously like "VeryyyyyyyLongNa..").

I have no idea if thats a server side thing, but could we get back that it shows the capture time?

Couldn't you have it in a much simpler fashion?

Have an area around the flag carrier. If a team mate kills an enemy in that area, they get an assist. Its a little less specific, but still quite likely to fit.

Couldn't you have it in a much simpler fashion?

Have an area around the flag carrier. If a team mate kills an enemy in that area, they get an assist. Its a little less specific, but still quite likely to fit.

More like if an enemy gets killed in this area (player who killed him gets points) - or both things! But thats a nice idea.

and use the throwing action instead of dropping action for the flag...

Do you mean, when the person carrying the flag dies, it'll get thrown.

Or do you mean the ability to throw/drop the flag? <-- +1 to that

for assist points, i was thinking more along the lines of of player A grabs the flag and tries to get it back to base. however, he is killed in a melee involving multiple people and player B grabs the flag after killing the ones that killed him, then returns to base and makes a cap. in this scenario, player A would get an assist for the cap.

ok, I just messed around with CTF a bit. i see that you can't capture the enemy flag and just keep dropping it to pick it up again to acquire infinite points (steve jobs will go bankrupt). thats good.

but you still only get 1 point for capturing the enemy flag, and you get like 15 points for making a cap. so maybe we should get rid of pickup points altogether and just make anyone who participated in the process of getting the flag back to base gets a fraction of the cap score. (like the person who capped gets the base score, be it 15 or whatever and everyone else who held the flag at some point gets 5 points, subject to rebalancing). so I guess it would be kind of similar to how it works now (with the pickup points) but the flag HAS to be capped by someone in order for anyone to get points.

also, perhaps this could be combined with the flag carrier proximity assist field or whatever.

and use the throwing action instead of dropping action for the flag...

Do you mean, when the person carrying the flag dies, it'll get thrown.

Or do you mean the ability to throw/drop the flag? <-- +1 to that

I mean the ability to throw/drop the flag - Right now when you do +use, the flag just kinda drops at your feet. I want to make it fly towards where your crosshair is pointing. (of course, it wouldn't be able to be thrown far)

honestly I didn't expect anyone to be against that, fisume..... why?


I agree that actually it may be okay to just use a radius around the flag carrier where assist points are awarded for killing people in that zone - That will need playtesting to figure out exactly, but I can do that for sure. Also having support for picking up a dropped flag and continuing to get a cap sounds like a good idea too, but not sure how I can track that easily/cleanly from the code. We'll see, either way - I don't think that we should ONLY reward points for when a cap is completed though, that's hard to keep track of+++++ and I really don't think there's much of a benefit.


Just a quick thing i'd like to add: With discussion on IRC I also was thinking about adding some kind of way for team mates to share where the FC is. A common problem on public matches is that the FC simply hides and no one can find him for several minutes, essentially stalling the whole match. I'm going to code an option to allow you to automatically flag down the FC when you see them (within reason) or something like this (haven't decided totally yet).

In quake 3 you get assist medal if:

1. You return your flag, a teammate or you capture.
2. You kill the enemy FC, the flag gets returned by somebody else and another guy captures.

You are talking about the defend medal where if you kill an enemy in the vicinity of your flag you get a defend medal, IF you are within the your flag or your fc range you always get a defend medal for killing an enemy, only if your flag is picked up by the enemy you don't get defend medals.

This should be separate code, medals can be used in all game modes BUT there are special medals for CTF.

I can't think of any ideas, but I'm available if you need help with implementation.

Delays for picking up/returning the flag.

E.g. have to stand near flag for 3 seconds to pick up, and 2 seconds to return (progress interrupted if enemy stands inside this zone around the flag)

Delays for picking up/returning the flag.

E.g. have to stand near flag for 3 seconds to pick up, and 2 seconds to return (progress interrupted if enemy stands inside this zone around the flag)

Not a big fan of delay to pick up. Would make camping the flag as defense too easy IMO, but maybe a delay on returning could work.

I do however like the idea theShadow posted. I think multiple team points should only be awarded after a cap as to avoid teammates just passing the flag back and forth to rack up points and other such tricks. I'd say +1 to being able to throw the flag a (very) short distance only if this type of system was implimented. It would force teamwork, ie: throw the flag to a teammate if you're about to die.

I'm a +1 on very short delay on pick up and return. I think this pause in game play would add to the game dynamics. Making it more exciting capturing the flag. This would also mean, returning the flag would not be instant, allowing for even more incentive for team play.

I'm not sure if this is already available but the option for a spawn shield of about 1 second by default would be nice, preventing spawn killing (would also be nice across all game modes). I think this would encourage better game play, and allow fresh spawn players to survive for a little longer when base is over run, making it harder for the opposition to receive 3 caps in a row.

Delays for picking up/returning the flag.

E.g. have to stand near flag for 3 seconds to pick up, and 2 seconds to return (progress interrupted if enemy stands inside this zone around the flag)

Not a big fan of delay to pick up. Would make camping the flag as defense too easy IMO, but maybe a delay on returning could work.

A big problem right now IMO is that it's too easy to just snatch the flag by lasering in and out. Not being able to do that would promote teamplay instead of soloing around with the laser. These kind of crazy tactics should give you a massive penalty in every gamemode if you ask me. Implementing this idea would be one step in the right direction.
But if we only add a delay to returning, then we'll just make these insane caps easier.

Idea: Give the player a bigger damage vulnerability a few seconds after the laser was used. (in _any_ gamemode!)
Because: then *NOT* lasering around like mad will also finally make sense. Like I discussed with kojn last night, the laser needs to be made into a special tool again instead of something you must use constantly in order to play well in this game.

Oh another thing CTF needs which will further break classic CTF rules: Waypoint on the enemy flagcarrier! Or at least a compass sort of thing like what Team Fortress 2 CTF has, if anyone here has played that. This is definitely needed if we're going to keep gameplay as insanely fast as it is, bunnyhopping makes some things like capping waaay too easy, and this would make defending a bit easier. Plus further encourage teamplay.

More ideas: Respawn delay with chase cam on teammates. *At least* a 5 second delay, possibly getting gradually longer (still not over 10 seconds or so) if you haven't died for a while. This way it won't be as annoying if you keep getting owned inside your spawns.

Delays for picking up/returning the flag.

E.g. have to stand near flag for 3 seconds to pick up, and 2 seconds to return (progress interrupted if enemy stands inside this zone around the flag)

Not a big fan of delay to pick up. Would make camping the flag as defense too easy IMO, but maybe a delay on returning could work.

A big problem right now IMO is that it's too easy to just snatch the flag by lasering in and out. Not being able to do that would promote teamplay instead of soloing around with the laser. These kind of crazy tactics should give you a massive penalty in every gamemode if you ask me. Implementing this idea would be one step in the right direction.
But if we only add a delay to returning, then we'll just make these insane caps easier.

No delay is bad. Sometimes you can't even get to the flag and then you have to wait some seconds? Impossible. Also delay for returning is not good, because if you finally take down the enemy FC and have to wait some seconds, a enemy will arrive (you are usually kinda low then) and kill you.

Idea: Give the player a bigger damage vulnerability a few seconds after the laser was used. (in _any_ gamemode!)
Because: then *NOT* lasering around like mad will also finally make sense. Like I discussed with kojn last night, the laser needs to be made into a special tool again instead of something you must use constantly in order to play well in this game.

People don't laser like mad, not in your balance and not in Samuals balance, because its just not good. Also sometimes you are so low if you run through defence and try to run away that you can't use it anyway.

Oh another thing CTF needs which will further break classic CTF rules: Waypoint on the enemy flagcarrier! Or at least a compass sort of thing like what Team Fortress 2 CTF has, if anyone here has played that. This is definitely needed if we're going to keep gameplay as insanely fast as it is, bunnyhopping makes some things like capping waaay too easy, and this would make defending a bit easier. Plus further encourage teamplay.

More teamplay would be probably better if people actually would use binds like "FC seen" (or at least default "enemy seen"). Would suck to be a FC if you have to fight 24/7. Also takes the possibilty to confuse the enemys by going other ways or you go back and use another way to escape, cause they know where you are.

More ideas: Respawn delay with chase cam on teammates. *At least* a 5 second delay, possibly getting gradually longer (still not over 10 seconds or so) if you haven't died for a while. This way it won't be as annoying if you keep getting owned inside your spawns.

There are some maps where you can capture in 5 seconds. Or even if you are able to capture in 15 seconds - would be impossible to catch the FC if you die and have to wait for respawn.


Plus: Always think about newbies. They are probably happy if they get to the flag and can take it. If they have to wait first (they might get confused at first) and would be killed for sure. Same for the waypoint thing for FC. They have like no chance. :/

For a pickup/capture delay to work I think there has to be a corresponding spawn delay (and I don't like delays at all). Right now the enemy team spawns in their base - instantaneously - with shotguns at the ready! Even if a team were to clear out the enemy base, what benefit is that going to provide if the other team can immediately get right back into the action?

I can't think of any ideas, but I'm available if you need help with implementation.

...disregard that, I am not doing any of these crazy ideas listed after my first post. First you want to make a fast-paced game, and now you suggest a 5 seconds long respawn delay? What the hell?! And do you realize WHAT are minsta CTF games going to turn into with delayed pickups? Right, into team deathmatch with basecamping!

Totally agree, Akari, NO respawn delay!!! That makes camper games. And also no negative points for pickups, give some points for it, not doing that makes camper games too.

And in some servers were you get much points for a pickup (dietunichtguten for example) is it possible, if you are fc, and you hided yourself, to just drop flag-pickup, flag-pickup, flag-pickup, flag-pickup, etc. Generates loads of points, and should not be possible.

thats why I was saying that maybe we should remove pickup points, and only give points for holding the flag during the captureing process, and you only get those points of someone makes a cap before the flag is returned.