[SUGGESTION] Weapons function

imo making a mortar-like electro primary and removing mortar sounds logical. It would be kind of revolution but for me, to be honest, there`s no difference if i`m firing grenades or some energy impulse or sth if the final effect would be pretty much the same
I also like the idea of sticky secondary. It would make it more predictible.
Anyway, the idea to make one weapon out of those two (quite similar even with configuration from nexuiz 2.5.2) sounds reasonable. It could be even something completely new, with its own ammo type. Electromortar?

I'm glad to see so many ideas about weapons when I came to give my thoughts... seems like I don't even need to, but here's my thoughts, based a lot on UT as this game shares similar blood and feel;

- The shotgun as i've noticed said, is far too powerful as a weapon to start with - all you ever hear and pretty much do is spam the triple shot in any game which isn't minsta. I support it needs to either be much weaker or changed to something much weaker - it should be a wepon that is insulting to be killed by, and barely possible - like someone on low hp and u get lucky etc. I just don't think it should ever be possible - save by chance - to be able to easily kill someone the moment you spawn.

- Reloading (for machine gun etc.) would kill the game. This isn't CS and shouldn't even be contemplated as an option - maybe a sort of mutator people who might want it could make, but to make this a core aspect of the game would move it from the realm of unrealistic fun, to trying to be more of a simulator. = fail. I have the same feeling about overheating like in Quake; it would ruin the satisfaction that that sort of gun has with it.

That's all I can manage for now, bit tired and don't want to accidently go over what might have been said... but lots of nice idea's out there i've seen

@ReloadingGunsIdea - If you want that, go play Urban Terror and then come back and tell us you want reloading.

oh and, this is final, it will happen yesterday. no discussion. thats why i labeled it as "Other ideas".

Because I totally read it that way.

you'd know that the electro would be changed to fill its place.

So... electro would get same speed, same arc, and same behavior as mortar primary?

In other news today: ppl who have nothing to add to a discussion are kindly asked to stfu, gtfo and stfo.

Because all I'm doing is spamming this forum. I am most certainly not trying to participate in this discussion. No.

Seriously tough Roanoke, comments like that will in the long run resulting in developers giving up on reading "public" input.

Good day to you too.

- The shotgun as i've noticed said, is far too powerful as a weapon to start with - all you ever hear and pretty much do is spam the triple shot in any game which isn't minsta. I support it needs to either be much weaker or changed to something much weaker - it should be a wepon that is insulting to be killed by, and barely possible - like someone on low hp and u get lucky etc. I just don't think it should ever be possible - save by chance - to be able to easily kill someone the moment you spawn.

IIRC, shotgun is getting weakened. It's just, as you said, too strong.

- Reloading (for machine gun etc.) would kill the game. This isn't CS and shouldn't even be contemplated as an option - maybe a sort of mutator people who might want it could make, but to make this a core aspect of the game would move it from the realm of unrealistic fun, to trying to be more of a simulator. = fail. I have the same feeling about overheating like in Quake; it would ruin the satisfaction that that sort of gun has with it.

What are the other options? Gun X is too strong. It's intended to fire quickly and do damage. Reload or overheat are the only options, I think. Overheat is preferable in my opinion.

I agree that the machine gun should have a Halo Plasma Rifle type overheat. Perhaps a three round burst for secondary or similar.

What are the other options? Gun X is too strong. It's intended to fire quickly and do damage. Reload or overheat are the only options, I think. Overheat is preferable in my opinion.

I was certainly thinking specifically of the machine gun in this case as some players, myself included, find it greatly satisfying to have a gun that when you're good at aiming: pays off. You should be able to happily mow people down with it. Still, after giving it some further thought and taking in to account such scenarios when people just sort of spray it all over knowing eventually people are going to die because of it's power, then overheating would be a solution. I think, where i've seen people make references to Quake, I was worried because Quake frankly took it too far in my opinion - i.e. it overheated far to quickly to be a satisfying gun to use. I would suggest making it similar to the minigun in UT, and overheating if necessary, perhaps with each bullet ever so slightly weaker and taking a decent amount of time to overheat.

I'm against over-heating, unless the mg becomes some kind of mingun/chaingun, that has inaccurate primary fire/accurate secondary fire..so keep it the same principle as current mg then perhaps add that.

In my opinion that is not the problem, it's the damage the weapon does that seems to be the problem mainly with secondary so for that just weaken it..green marine did it, Rabs has done it also and it was good when I used it.

However I see your view in that you want a weapon that compete against the other's if you hit a lot with it, but also has some kind of disadvantage to it's use.

If it became a chaingun/minigun style weapon, making it eat lot's of ammo would also fix the problem..so it cant be used all the time and that it eat's ammo very very quickly..so you either use it and finish with it, or you use it and run out of ammo

Here's what I think would make the game flawless:

2.4.2 movement and physics
2.4.2 health and armor
2.4.2 weapon balancing (including longer nex animation)

but with these modifications:

2.3 Crylink, 2.5 Camping Rifle (for now), and a rebalanced HLAC
(maybe) guided rockets
Fireball as mutator until weapon is completed
User optional pogo stick (auto jump, hold down button to jump repeatedly)
Xonotic look, sound, and atmosphere (duh)


I think that would solve any balance and redundancy issues that currently plague the git.

I would also like quicker weapon switch times (eliminates jamming) and the TAG seeker. The former is easy to do, and the latter has already been done.
As for the rest, agree with Lee.

I'm going to tackle each one as listed.
First, laser and shotty together is a good idea. The same shotgun model could be used. Primary is laser, secondary is double barrel shot blast with a wide spread.

Machine gun and camping rifle = double barreled weapon with smaller MG under and slightly larger sniper rifle over. May not work well if MG is hitscan and camp keeps bullet drop. May induce feeling that one hits and the other doesn't. MG should climb or move after the first second of full auto fire.

Mortar is fine the way it is, except for smaller damage radius of explosion.

Crylink, primary is ok. Secondary, possibly a large plasma ball that detonates on second bounce, sprays plasma in a hemisphere.

Electro: Slower primary. Secondary, faster shots, does less damage unless detonated.

Hagar: Kick

RL: Smaller damage radius.

Nex: 3 level charge weapon, 1 second charge time per level. First level does 50 damage and 0 kick/deflection, 2nd level does 65 damage and strong kick, 3rd level does 125 damage and strong kick.

HLAC: Would it be really necessary? I mean, what advantage does it offer over any other weapon.

Fireball/Phoenix: Its fine the way it is, the extended fire damage is good.

Weapon switch time should be the same for all weapons, and server adjustable.

Essentially, if we need more weapons, they should be radically different from one another.

I'd be also into adding more ammo types - reduce the shared ammo to minimum or even remove it completly.

I like the idea of Nex being chargable.

And I'd like to see the TAG Seeker again too!

I'm going to tackle each one as listed.
First, laser and shotty together is a good idea. The same shotgun model could be used. Primary is laser, secondary is double barrel shot blast with a wide spread.

So you're completely changing how the shotgun works. I'm against this. Laser and shotgun in one weapon will eliminate the need for any other weapon.

Machine gun and camping rifle = double barreled weapon with smaller MG under and slightly larger sniper rifle over. May not work well if MG is hitscan and camp keeps bullet drop. May induce feeling that one hits and the other doesn't. MG should climb or move after the first second of full auto fire.

I propose primary ballistic hitscan sniping with crifle refire, and secondary is spread shot with MG refire. Overheating takes effect here.

Mortar is fine the way it is, except for smaller damage radius of explosion.

Why change this? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Crylink, primary is ok. Secondary, possibly a large plasma ball that detonates on second bounce, sprays plasma in a hemisphere.

Secondary has its uses (several campers on a wall, use secondary to make them hide)

Electro: Slower primary. Secondary, faster shots, does less damage unless detonated.

Slower than 2.5.2 or slower than git? Secondary is fast enough, if you can hit someone with secondary that should be rewarded.

Hagar: Kick

If we are going to keep the hagar, we need to make it stronger.

RL: Smaller damage radius.

See mortar.

Nex: 3 level charge weapon, 1 second charge time per level. First level does 50 damage and 0 kick/deflection, 2nd level does 65 damage and strong kick, 3rd level does 125 damage and strong kick.

Above all, nex should still be an effective sniping weapon. 50 damage is practically useless.

HLAC: Would it be really necessary? I mean, what advantage does it offer over any other weapon.

Can't beat HLAC secondary for close range.

Fireball/Phoenix: Its fine the way it is, the extended fire damage is good.

Have you ever played with it? It's too strong. Slower burning time with firemines and only direct hits do damage with the giant ass fireball (maybe make it smaller).

Weapon switch time should be the same for all weapons, and server adjustable.

This is how it is. The problem is that it's not zero.

Essentially, if we need more weapons, they should be radically different from one another.

Maybe not radically, but not five different full auto weapons that fire strangely similarly.

I'd be also into adding more ammo types - reduce the shared ammo to minimum or even remove it completly.

I am against this - maps would need to be rebalanced, and the game would become slower. As it is now, picking up a cell allows you to use many different weapons. You don't need to spend your time searching for the ammo for the weapon you are holding.

And I'd like to see the TAG Seeker again too!

Yes.

"I propose primary ballistic hitscan sniping with crifle refire, and secondary is spread shot with MG refire. Overheating takes effect here."

I propose the same, but with a faster re-fire rate for primary but like you said a ballistic hitscan sniper, make secondary fire a scope/zoom, I don't like the idea that every weapon has to have some kind of cool secondary, scope would make it better to use over long distances.

Just my 2cents.

Hogging secondary for score is sorta redundant when +zoom exists tough, and that also sounds an awful lot line a nexgun clone.

Yes, I suggested to reduce the nex power because it will not super reward those those with the fastest finger, or get reduced to 10 life upon spawn. Either he gets you for a decent amount damage, or he blows you away because he charged it up and he was ready. Besides, the camping rifle should do maximum damage because it takes more accuracy to use. Why use the camping rifle if the nex shoots flatter, is instant, and does max damage? Separating the two firing mechanisms makes each one better for a specific purpose. That way, the camping rifle is used more by campers, and the nex can be used offensively and defensively. Nex snipers will no longer juggle ppl with accurate shots, and other players will have more opportunity to eliminate those who rely on the nex so much. The nex can still be used to camp, he just has to keep charging it up after each shot to get max damage. Camping rifle should have higher refire rate, but a limited amount of rounds before reload. Hows 15 sound?

By the way, instant weapons switching was in nex before, and it was removed. People were defeating the reload time by switching quickly and getting more rapid shots, like switching from nex then back to get more nex shots.

Having the laser and shotty in the same weapon will not eliminate the need for other weapons. Laser does min damage and decent push. Shotty does min push and decent damage. Eventually, you'll run out of shotgun ammo, then you just have laser. Either way, you won't do nearly as much damage as with any other weapon.

The reason for changing the electro is to reward more for exploding the balls instead of just dropping them. You get some reward for dropping them, but you should be rewarded more for exploding them.

I have played with the fireball. Its a nice effect and a decent weapon. The big fireball and explosion make it totally different than all the other weapons. The mines should burn faster. The fireball should explode into 5 or 6 firemines spaced evenly with a large amount of damage at the center.

Hogging secondary for score is sorta redundant when +zoom exists tough, and that also sounds an awful lot line a nexgun clone.

Yea but a sniper wouldn't do as much damage as the nexgun, like the camping rifle damage, I LIKE the current re-fire of that weapon in the GIT, would be good for all ranges, but would do less damage then say a close rocket hit, it's also harder to hit with.

It's slightly harder to use, but with say a big damage for a headshot on spawn (there already hard enough to do anyway) so say it does 150-155 damage for a headshot, and 70-80 damage for a body hit, 30-40 damage for a shot on the leg/arm..these are just estimates mind you i'm writing this quickly, I don't know if that can be coded but I guess it can for different damage to different parts of the body with it.

However it would be less devastating then the nex.

And i'm probably one of the best aimers with the nex and use it the
most out of any weapon, I'm trying to make it more balanced and hopefully wouldn't destroy the ctf maps as much like the nex does, some may not agree, but if it's too be changed that's my proposal, if not then the nex stays as it is imo

Yes, I suggested to reduce the nex power because it will not super reward those those with the fastest finger, or get reduced to 10 life upon spawn.

Because rewarding fast reactions is not something we want to do.

Either he gets you for a decent amount damage...

50 is hardly any damage, and it's still fast fingers.

Besides, the camping rifle should do maximum damage because it takes more accuracy to use. Why use the camping rifle if the nex shoots flatter, is instant, and does max damage? Separating the two firing mechanisms makes each one better for a specific purpose. That way, the camping rifle is used more by campers, and the nex can be used offensively and defensively.

Crifle and nex should be merged. It's stupid having two weapons with basically the same firing mechanism. As tzork said, secondary for scope is a great way to waste a firing mode. I've had zoom bound for a loong time, and I can adjust the level, something that is not doable with nex zoom.

Nex snipers will no longer juggle ppl with accurate shots, and other players will have more opportunity to eliminate those who rely on the nex so much.

I've never seen people juggle other people with the nex. This would require being directly under them, in which case a guided rocket can throw the attacker off. As for snipers, come up behind them and hagar them off their perch, or nex them.

By the way, instant weapons switching was in nex before, and it was removed. People were defeating the reload time by switching quickly and getting more rapid shots, like switching from nex then back to get more nex shots.

Simple solution to this. Each weapon has a reload timer not influenced by switching to and fro, so if you shoot a weapon with a 1sec reload, switch to laser, then switch back, you still need to wait .5 secs or however long it took you to do three switches.

Having the laser and shotty in the same weapon will not eliminate the need for other weapons. Laser does min damage and decent push. Shotty does min push and decent damage. Eventually, you'll run out of shotgun ammo, then you just have laser. Either way, you won't do nearly as much damage as with any other weapon.

People who are fast with laser will laser to where they need to go, shoot whoever is in front of them, then laser back.

The reason for changing the electro is to reward more for exploding the balls instead of just dropping them. You get some reward for dropping them, but you should be rewarded more for exploding them.

As I said, hitting a target with a ball is much more difficult than leaning on secondary then tapping primary.

I have played with the fireball. Its a nice effect and a decent weapon. The big fireball and explosion make it totally different than all the other weapons. The mines should burn faster. The fireball should explode into 5 or 6 firemines spaced evenly with a large amount of damage at the center.

What a great way to totally unbalance the game. Exploding into firemines? Burning faster (i.e. more damage)? Sounds like all one needs is an asston of rockets and they can just spam the enemy base and cripple them.

Because rewarding fast reactions is not something we want to do.

Lemmie see, if the camping rifle is beefed up, then nerfing the nex some won't matter. Besides, the flat shooting, hitscan, can't avoid, 110 damage nex should be automatic, right?

Either he gets you for a decent amount damage...

50 is hardly any damage, and it's still fast fingers.

Charge it up to get more.

Nex snipers will no longer juggle ppl with accurate shots, and other players will have more opportunity to eliminate those who rely on the nex so much.

I've never seen people juggle other people with the nex. This would require being directly under them, in which case a guided rocket can throw the attacker off. As for snipers, come up behind them and hagar them off their perch, or nex them.

You've never been hit more than once from the same player while jumping from a high place? Who are you playing? Bring a rocket to a nex fight and guess who loses?
Try coming up from behind those snipers on facing worlds, good luck!

By the way, instant weapons switching was in nex before, and it was removed. People were defeating the reload time by switching quickly and getting more rapid shots, like switching from nex then back to get more nex shots.

Simple solution to this. Each weapon has a reload timer not influenced by switching to and fro, so if you shoot a weapon with a 1sec reload, switch to laser, then switch back, you still need to wait .5 secs or however long it took you to do three switches.

Its easier to just have a standard switch time for all weapons. Immediate switching was done before, and there's a reason we don't have it now.

Having the laser and shotty in the same weapon will not eliminate the need for other weapons. Laser does min damage and decent push. Shotty does min push and decent damage. Eventually, you'll run out of shotgun ammo, then you just have laser. Either way, you won't do nearly as much damage as with any other weapon.

People who are fast with laser will laser to where they need to go, shoot whoever is in front of them, then laser back.

What does this mean? I switch with laser and shotty now, and I don't get a whole lot of kills with that combo. I do it if all the bases weapons are taken.

The reason for changing the electro is to reward more for exploding the balls instead of just dropping them. You get some reward for dropping them, but you should be rewarded more for exploding them.

As I said, hitting a target with a ball is much more difficult than leaning on secondary then tapping primary.

Tossing balls on the ground and waiting for someone to land on them is hard? I think its a little harder to time detonation, thus more damage. Who actually hits someone directly with the electro secondary?

I have played with the fireball. Its a nice effect and a decent weapon. The big fireball and explosion make it totally different than all the other weapons. The mines should burn faster. The fireball should explode into 5 or 6 firemines spaced evenly with a large amount of damage at the center.

What a great way to totally unbalance the game. Exploding into firemines? Burning faster (i.e. more damage)? Sounds like all one needs is an asston of rockets and they can just spam the enemy base and cripple them.

I didn't say faster meant more damage. Faster means they burn out faster, a la less overall damage. Besides, spammers must be pummeled, in person if possible. I mean, thats what the nex and other weps are for.


But in reading some of the other posts, it seems to me that the type of maps we play now are an issue as well, which should be addressed.

It's flawed (you can't loot weapons from enemies lol), but I think some of you guys toying around with the git should check my balance + physics out. Each gun now has a purpose as well as a rock/paper/scissors balance and you are now encouraged to combo with the nex when your within camping rifle range. Speaking of the camping rifle the gun is in my opinion how it should be (probably aint perfect yet, but that's why I'm looking for feedback) and it rewards those that have the skill to use it in the right situations. The crylink also acts like a crylink now.

http://forums.xonotic.org//showthread.php?tid=387

I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet but I just wanted to point out that do whatever you please with the weapons, I am confident that the outcome will be a great basis for tweaking the balance and that we will eventually have an equally well-balanced weapon system as Nexuiz has. Or even better, dunno if that's possible, though.

Anyhow, my point is, what was it again, oh right: I don't know if it is in discussion or not but PLEASE leave the laser as a tool for moving around and, even more important, as a tool to push around people. *bambi-eyes*

lol The laser still acts like a laser (well blaster actually, but you get the point) so you don't need to worry too much about it... until 1.0 gets released! *Diablo 1 theme * HAHAHA!!!!!! j/k

Yes well I hoped for that, but you know people are discussing weird weapon behaviours and I was just fearing my dear beloved laser might be subject to such discussions as well. If we can keep the laser or something that works in a pretty much similar way, I am all fine.

I hope that, whatever is happening with weapon balance and wherever it ends up settling, the Laser and Nex will no longer be such retarded noob weapons as they were in versions <= 2.5.2. If you want to spend the whole game laser jumping and instantly zapping away enemies, play minsta. A good laser jump should cost you ~25 health, a nex strike should cost you no more than a direct hit from a rocket (much harder to deliver).

At the same time, the laser and nex should both get actual secondary attacks of some kind, not just a lame ass weapon switch and zoom respectively, which other keys already provide you. A close ranged (2-5 meter) attack for the laser secondary would be especially cool.

If you want to spend the whole game laser jumping .. play minsta.

What game have you been playing while everybody else was playing Nexuiz? The laser and its usage as a movement tool is what defines this game and sets it apart from the dime-a-dozen Q3/UT inspired games. This is not a "better looking OA" or "free UT" or an alternative to whatever is the name of that slow-moving sci-fi FPS that you come from.

You've never been hit more than once from the same player while jumping from a high place? Who are you playing? Bring a rocket to a nex fight and guess who loses?
Try coming up from behind those snipers on facing worlds, good luck!

I frequently kill off nex-users with.. well most guns. with rl on otherwise equal terms its almost to easy (unless your dumb enougth to try and rocket a nex'er from five miles away) basing any sort of comparison or judgement on facing counts for nothing. its a wide open maps with 6 nexguns and two rl's . go figure.

... a nex strike should cost you no more than a direct hit from a rocket (much harder to deliver).

last time i checked nex did 100 dmg and rl 110. plus rl is stupidity easy to hit with with the rl given guidance and huge radius.

I dont think the easy to use guns are the main problem (they may need dpa/aps ajust up or down a bit tough) imo the issue is with the hard guns to use, electro (hard to use 'right') crylink, hagar. Those are dead weight to many new (and even intermediate) players.

I sort of agree laster jumps should be more expensive; but perhaps not in terms of health; there are other ways too - like refire time, ammo use (perhaps give the laser auto re-charging ammo type?)