[SUGGESTION] More ammo types

Together with all changes involved in the Nexuiz -> Xonotic transition, all maps are getting a remake as well. I was thinking this could be a great chance to add more ammo types in Xonotic, which I remember many players agreed to long ago.

As I might have said back then; I love the idea of shared ammo, but still, there's only 4 ammo types for about 12 weapons that use ammo. I think at least two more ammos should be added, before many official maps are finalized and it's still easy to do this. Here are some of my ideas on the matter:

- The Mortar could use new Grenade ammo. Hagar and Rocket Launcher can stick to the current rocket ammo.

- Add Electric ammo, which could be used by the Nex and MinstaNex at least. The current cell ammo could be called Plasma ammo, and remain in use for the Electro and Crylink.

- The Fireball could use Fuel instead of Rocket ammo, if a weapon sharing the Jetpack's fuel wouldn't be a wrong idea (fuel turned into a normal ammo pickup in this case).

Other ideas would be nice too. I'm curious if there are any plans for this, and if it might happen anytime soon.

I like those ideas

The thing is, lots of people actually take every ammo they find on their way even if they don't have the matching weapons. Adding ammo types would then make finding ammos much harder IMO (since each ammo type would be in smaller quantity)...

thus making the game a little bit more challenging. A game should be challenging, right? or else what's the point of playing?

anyway, I agree with MirceaKitsune.

I agree with wii-wii. More ammo types means that many maps are now crippled (they have weapon pickups but no ammo pickups for those weapons), and identifying ammo will get tougher, and I really don't see the reason for this.

Just get rid of shared ammo AND ammo packs. Problem solved.

If a mapper wants more rocket ammo, spawn more RLs. More hagar ammo, spawn more hagars.

Anything else is just trying to patch up bad, obsolete game design. And with 12 ammo consuming weapons now that's not something you can afford.

K.I.S.S.

Also, I simply do not see any ADVANTAGE from it. Having only few ammo types (we already have five including fuel) means that the HUD can still contain all ammo info and is not bloated yet.

Yeah, because twelve different types of ammo will not make maps unplayable, cluttered with WEAPONS WEAPONS EVERYWHERE, and definitely will not make the hud bigger.

You only need to see how much ammo there is in the weapon you are currently using plus fuel, armor and health. Everything else is interface bloat, taking up precious view space.

Plus the hud is very editable now thanks to fruitiex, so whoever might want all this specific ammo info can use a custom layout to get it, I think.

So this really shouldn't be considered an interface issue, it's a weapon/map balancing issue, either way.

Basically what flying steel says, just because it means you won't be able to run around with your favourite weapon all the time isn't a valid point!

Roanoke, he suggested 2 different ammo types it's hardly wrecking things.

Not that we need to do anything comparing to other games... but almost all shooters I seen use individual ammo for each weapon, and have at least 8 weapons in total. Can't say I've had problems finding enough ammo for each gun there. I find it fun to look for more ammo, while still having some weapons share ammo as well. Never heard of anyone having a problem with that either... Xonotic is actually the only shooter I know that uses so little ammo (and DeusEx 2 )

As for the HUD, I don't think more ammo would load it too much. And I don't believe this would be a reason not to add new ammo imo. Most HUDs just show the ammo you're currently using, and those which show all ammo don't have problems with getting too loaded (the ammo list is aligned to the side, like in Xreal or Warsow).

[EDIT] I agree with kojn^ as well. Another fun thing is that this forces you to switch weapons more often, and use more different weapons. Even if we added 2 new ammos, we'd still be a shooter with few ammo types

The constraint on limited number of ammo types is inherited from an original design spec of Nexuiz by Lee Vermeulen.

I'm in favor of more ammo types with less shared ammo between weapons, but not gone all together. Weapons that should obviously use the same ammo should share that ammo.

I'm in favor of more ammo types with less shared ammo between weapons, but not gone all together. Weapons that should obviously use the same ammo should share that ammo.

Yeah, I perfectly agree. It would be sad if shared ammo went away completely, since that is also a very fun part. Normally, I would be up for half of the weapons using own ammo and the other half shared ammos (or half of the ammo being unique and half shared). Of course no one would make that much unique ammo, and that would probably be too much for Xonotic, so I support adding just 2-3 more ammo types at most (third could be the Jetpack's fuel being used for something else too).

- The Mortar could use new Grenade ammo. Hagar and Rocket Launcher can stick to the current rocket ammo.

I think the rocket launcher should have a separate ammo, and mortar&Hagar use the same, since the Rocket launcher is a special (powerful) weapon.

- Add Electric ammo, which could be used by the Nex and MinstaNex at least. The current cell ammo could be called Plasma ammo, and remain in use for the Electro and Crylink.

I agree with that.

- The Fireball could use Fuel instead of Rocket ammo, if a weapon sharing the Jetpack's fuel wouldn't be a wrong idea (fuel turned into a normal ammo pickup in this case).

it already uses fuel. Turn fuel into a normal pickup ammo....hmmm, I don't know man, maybe it's not a good idea. see this thread pls

one thing ive always wanted to see is special weapons using 2 types of ammo.

an example is if we have the `xon` rifle using bullets and energy. so the weapon can still maintain its powerful strength, but just be a little harder to load up and maintain ammo on a map. the `xons` function would be replaced by the rifle which is more disadvantaged having to reload and doing less damage. (would also like to see to xon shooting through walls instead of the rifle which is more appropriate)

fireball could use mortar ammo and jet-fuel seeing its not really a flame thrower, it shoots fireballs, also making it a more `rare` weapon.

I think it'd be a great idea to give the nex (or it's replacement) it's own ammo type. This allows map makers to provide a limited amount of ammo on the map without crippling the use of other weapons, right now electro and crylink. Proper use of this by map makers could effectively eliminate mass nex camping done on many ctf maps, but at the same time make the electro and crylink still available for normal use.

If there will still be shared ammo, I would highly recommend rethinking which weapons share ammo with which other weapons, keeping in mind their actual gameplay mechanics, instead of the random horseshit arrangement Nexuiz used.

For example, something like all hitscan weapons should share one ammo type, or all close ranged weapons should share an ammo type, or all splashy weapons should use a single ammo type, et cetera.

pls reread my last post, I edited it.

Generally, we can or maybe should add ONE more ammo type, so the total number of ammo types would be 6 (six) including fuel. Would allow fuel to show up like the other ammo types in the HUD, in a 3x2 arrangement.

And how is the Nexuiz arrangement random horseshit? It basically boils down to:

- shells = shotgun
- bullets = bullet guns
- rockets = anything explosive
- cells = anything energy
- fuel = fire (continuous burning)

It is defined by the kind of the gun, or what it fires, and not by gameplay characteristics. It'd be odd if e.g. shotgun and rocket launcher shared one ammo type because they both are close ranged.

However, it would not be a bad idea to split up the cells ammo type.

However, it would not be a bad idea to split up the cells ammo type.

Splitting the cells type might not be a bad idea given how many guns use it and it would correct a balance issue with the railgun/nex/xon/whateverthehelllitscalled.

[OFF TOPIC]
Speaking of balance, the only point blank-close range weapon is the one you start out with and it's has it's own ammo type (shells). I think somewhere down the line something should be done to correct that such as introducing a super shotgun for close range and then modifying the current shotgun to serve almost any purpose (kinda like UT99's enforcer) but never dominate a situation.

To be honest, Mercia hit the nail on the head in his first post, and gave the best possible use of introducing ammo type's that I can see, very simple and makes sense, would mean adding 'electry' ammo as he called it for the nex and making crylink and electro use the cell ammo, and adding a seperate type for the mortar (grenade). That's two extra ammo type's to help things, hardly over-kill.

Giving every gun it's own type of ammo seems like a very bad idea. Having six different types of ammo total that have a few a weapons assigned to them on the other hand gives the game a good balance of simplicity and depth. The only ammo changes I can think of that would be good are assigning fuel to the fireball and splitting the energy type into plasma and magnetic (or whatever the hell you want to call them) to fix a few balance issues.

Speaking of splitting energy, here's what I think would work:

Magnetic
------
Railgun/Nex
Electro

Plasma
-----
Crylink
HLAC


Throw in a super shotty somewhere in this game's development and we'd pretty much have two weapons per ammo (for the most part, there may be an exception or two) type with each gun serving it's own purpose and having their own abilities and weaknesses.

+1 for one ammo type for railgun/electro and one for crylink/hlac. not sure about the names though, as i think that the electro should be the plasma-gun...

the problem is that lasers, railguns and plasma need electricity.....

And how is the Nexuiz arrangement random horseshit? It basically boils down to:

- shells = shotgun
- bullets = bullet guns
- rockets = anything explosive
- cells = anything energy
- fuel = fire (continuous burning)

It is defined by the kind of the gun, or what it fires, and not by gameplay characteristics.

Because, first and foremost, not defining ammo sharing by any gameplay mechanics means that mappers can't very accurately adjust weapon availability according to what kind of map it is.

The biggest difference is probably between the classic, cramped, close quarters labyrinth type maps and the now extremely popular big open maps. If only the ammo sharing was divided across weapons very effective at close range, medium range and long range, these major differences in map types could be much more easily balanced.

It'd be odd if e.g. shotgun and rocket launcher shared one ammo type because they both are close ranged.

IMO, the current RL is now more of a medium ranged weapon.

But how does one ammo type for rockets of completely different calibers plus mortar fired grenades make any more sense? You could even say that these weapons plus the SG have in common that they are all shrapnel based, area attack weapons.


I'm not saying that having ammo groups make some kind of sense isn't important, just that gameplay should at least be an equally important consideration.

I think ammo needs to be distributed over some gameplay mechanics, since one of the basic purposes is for the gameplay to feel good. But not over criteria such as close range vs. long range imo, since I don't see how that affects the ammo used. More like, what would make most sense for that weapon, together with how different its firing type is.

Eg. If we think of splitting rocket ammo, the Rocket Launcher and Hagar shoot rockets while the Mortar shoots grenades. Grenades vs. rockets are the strongest division between explosive projectiles, since they move and work differently. So this could be a good reason why grenades could be separated. I feel slightly the same for Electro + Crylink vs. Nex.

As for the RL, I don't think it's a close range weapon at all, since using it for close range will get you damaged as well. Medium range would describe it best imo, as Flying Steel said. I personally find the shotgun and the uzi's primary fire close range, the nex and the uzi's alternate fire long range (ocasionally the laser too), and everything else medium range.