Changes to weapon settings wanted?

[/list]FlyingSteel, I know you are very passionate about making Xonotic more mainstream in order to attract new players. But please consider that a lot of the established player base might just particularly like what sets Nexuiz (and, hopefully, Xonotic) apart from the main stream.

I don't know how many more times I'll need to repeat this before people will hear it, but that isn't a problem because everything the "established playerbase" wants/needs can be delivered in a mutator (or cfg) shipping with the game. These folks rarely play and hate public games, prefering ladders and small closed door matches and should be informed enough to know how to switch on a modifier. It doesn't affect them; they have no reason to leave.

This thing about the recent lower health cap making the laser debuffed is also bunk, because the laser's damage was reduced from 35 to 25 with the same stroke, reducing self damage. Further, because the starting health is still the same as always last I checked, the laser is actually more powerfully imbalanced as a "movement feature" than in the past.

Finally, I have said before that not scaring off new players with downright bizarre features/balance is a concern. But the direct detraction to gameplay these elements create is at least an equal concern, imo.

If you shoot a rocket and someone mortars you at the right moment the explosion radius of the mortar will trigger the rocket. It's not random, and I don't see how it could be prevented.

g_balance_rocketlauncher_health 0

I haven't felt much of a difference when playing someone with that kind of difference in ping, moreover, if we start to make weapons specifically designed to make people more equal in terms of ping we will not end up with good weapons (because I believe this is not possible).

Weapon prediction. (might come with CSQC players, which also is a "might come" thing). i.e. fire a rocket with 60ms ping, the rocket will appear instantly on your view, but on the server it's spawned at the distance it would be from you after 60ms. Of course limited to 150ms or so to prevent high pingers from getting a big advantage, maybe also having the rocket start out with a slower speed and then accelerate up to normal speed (quickly so it's done within the 150ms limit).

Decrease stupid force pushes of most weapons, they do not need to be that strong, just flung around at times again randomly, also contributes to problems of people being in the air a lot some weapons become very useless.

Yes please. At least halve most of the current splash damage weapons' forces. Rocketlauncher would be an exception, force 600 -> 400 (same as current laser force) would be perfect.

Laser - No vertical height advantage/tacticallness which spoils some TDM game's and map's because people just laser up off a wall or 3, hard to control area's because of it contributes to destroying that element of a FPS game, doesn't do near enough self-damage to help balance this problem which makes it overused and not used tactically.

It can spoil any gamemode, except maybe CA. Well in the end it can spoil CA too, as there the amount of jumps you can perform isn't counted in hp/armor, but in ammo (saving up ammo should be very important, so you have to choose either to move around fast by rocketjumping, or saving up rockets that you shoot your enemies with). Also, it's "just another rocketlauncher" with different reload, damage and force parameters. A gauntlet would put an end to this. Same thing goes for electro primary, hagar primary, hlac. (electro primary is a lightning gun in XPM, so there's one less there)

The laser's reload prevent's a player from being too bouncy, and with health/armor capped at 200 three laser bounces will bring them down quite a lot in terms of health - and since they are busy laserwalling they can't shoot you.

I can laserjump 19 times when starting with 200 health/200 armor in the default balance/physics. Enough said.

Surprisingly many have answered yes, considering my wording in the first post...

Voted a clear no, as the poll is quite unclear. I certainly won't authorize turning this game into a clone of Q3A, or doing very bad changes, like:

- removing the laser, or making it entirely useless
- removing half of the guns
- making the machinegun the default gun

THAT certainly won't happen.

Many small things however sure are ok.

Most of the suggested changes seem so BORING to me, sorry to say that... I feel I'll have to use old balance settings for fun games.

You're all trying to push the game in a serious/competitive direction, it seems you're forgetting to balance this with entertainment.

I can laserjump 19 times when starting with 200 health/200 armor in the default balance/physics. Enough said.

200/200 ?! Every weapon needs more power then.

I wouln't say remove the laser divVerent, all i'm asking for and a few other's is to atleast make it erm..less useable I guess?
All I would ask for is to atleast implement something to stop it being used multiple times in a row, and if you want to laser up a wall to somewhere that it requires some skill and you need to be able to pull it off on the first go, not if you fail you can retry about 3 times and only lost just under 1/3rd of your health.

So that player's are not constantly pinging around, frutiex posted you can laser 19 times with 200/200, that's really a hell of a lot, I'm guessing with 150/0 you can laser atleast 6 or 7 times.

I see no reason to remove the shotgun as a starting weapon either, either keep it or make it a pistol and then obviously it's just a case of working on how much damage it does and not making it too strong as a starting weapon.

My only other concern would be the force of the weapons and that's it really.

It can spoil any gamemode, except maybe CA. Well in the end it can spoil CA too, as there the amount of jumps you can perform isn't counted in hp/armor, but in ammo (saving up ammo should be very important, so you have to choose either to move around fast by rocketjumping, or saving up rockets that you shoot your enemies with). Also, it's "just another rocketlauncher" with different reload, damage and force parameters. A gauntlet would put an end to this. Same thing goes for electro primary, hagar primary, hlac. (electro primary is a lightning gun in XPM, so there's one less there.

That's just it - these arguments make me want to reread them. The rocketlauncher can NOT be used as a movement tool similar to the laser! That's preposterous, it changes the game completely. It deals far too much damage to be used in that manner.

I don't know how many more times I'll need to repeat this before people will hear it, but that isn't a problem because everything the "established playerbase" wants/needs can be delivered in a mutator (or cfg) shipping with the game. These folks rarely play and hate public games, prefering ladders and small closed door matches and should be informed enough to know how to switch on a modifier. It doesn't affect them; they have no reason to leave.

No. Not at all, in fact. The insanely vast majority of the established playerbase play on pub servers (it seems the average Nexuiz player plays CTF on a pub server in NA). They know the physics there, and they do not want a massive deviation from it. They will not set up their own servers with a mutator or anything like that, nobody does that. It does affect them, they can no longer comfortably play in a public game.

No. Not at all, in fact. The insanely vast majority of the established playerbase play on pub servers (it seems the average Nexuiz player plays CTF on a pub server in NA). They know the physics there, and they do not want a massive deviation from it. They will not set up their own servers with a mutator or anything like that, nobody does that. It does affect them, they can no longer comfortably play in a public game.

Assumptions on top of assumptions.

Only a minority of the pub server people are using lasers with any consistency, so you're mixing up the normal movement physics with the laser weapon. Those who do use a lot of lasers also have skill with the balanced weapon jumps too; so even they'd almost certainly use those more instead in a worst case where they can't stand a laser that's sanely balanced.

You also seem to have completely ignored the considerable quantity and popularity of minstagib and instagib servers out there. These are servers running Mutators, not the vanilla settings! Minsta players are not "nobody" or "uncomfortable playing public games" because they are using mutated settings.

And many other servers are currently running custom mods of the default balance to that make adjustments to the 2.5.2 MG and SG.

Only a minority of the pub server people are using lasers with any consistency, so you're mixing up the normal movement physics with the laser weapon.

Hardly, most people on pub servers use lasers.

Those who do use a lot of lasers also have skill with the balanced weapon jumps too;

Are you seriously suggesting that people should rocketjump instead of laser jump?

so even they'd almost certainly use those more instead in a worst case where they can't stand a laser that's sanely balanced.

Yeah, I can't see anyone using rocketjumps just because the force is the same as the laser force was.

You also seem to have completely ignored the considerable quantity and popularity of minstagib and instagib servers out there. These are servers running Mutators, not the vanilla settings! Minsta players are not "nobody" or "uncomfortable playing public games" because they are using mutated settings.

Popularity? Are you kidding? Vanilla DM and CTF servers almost always have players, very rarely do minsta servers have players (perhaps there is a popular one in Europe, there are only two in NA which never fill up).

And many other servers are currently running custom mods of the default balance to that make adjustments to the 2.5.2 MG and SG.

So you are equating "fixing" the laser to the 2.5.2 MG and SG balance?

Hardly, most people on pub servers use lasers.

Not from what I've seen. There are many, many people out there not using the laser with any frequency. And then many more who are only using a fraction of as frequently as they should be to be using most of its potential.

Are you seriously suggesting that people should rocketjump instead of laser jump?

No.

Yeah, I can't see anyone using rocketjumps just because the force is the same as the laser force was.

Rockets have way more force than lasers. So do mortars.

Popularity? Are you kidding? Vanilla DM and CTF servers almost always have players, very rarely do minsta servers have players (perhaps there is a popular one in Europe, there are only two in NA which never fill up).

I am in NA and I have seen them many a time filled while the CTF servers I play are totally vacant. Though I don't care for it, it is a very popular mutator and strong evidence that the world doesn't end past default settings.

So you are equating "fixing" the laser to the 2.5.2 MG and SG balance?

Well I was providing further evidence that non-default settings can be popular and are in fact fairly widespread; but sure why not? That too.

MG and SG damage goes down, laser damage goes back up from 25 to 35. Now that's two overused, overpowered starting weapons fixed.

Not from what I've seen. There are many, many people out there not using the laser with any frequency. And then many more who are only using a fraction of as frequently as they should be to be using most of its potential.

The people not using the laser are inexperienced, most likely. Building a game around them is a bad idea.

Rockets have way more force than lasers. So do mortars.

Not in FrutieX balance (or is it already default?).

Well I was providing further evidence that non-default settings can be popular and are in fact fairly widespread; but sure why not? That too.

When a non-default balance setting is widespread, that tells you something is not quite right.

MG and SG damage goes down, laser damage goes back up from 25 to 35. Now that's two overused, overpowered starting weapons fixed.

First the laser is underused ("There are many, many people out there not using the laser with any frequency."), now it is overused. Upping laser damage isn't a good idea because it will definitely slow down the gameplay. 25 is already one quarter of starting health, and one eighth of max health.

The people not using the laser are inexperienced, most likely. Building a game around them is a bad idea.

I disagree but that's not the point anyway. My point was I've encountered hordes of no laser or minimal laser users on the public servers.

Not in FrutieX balance (or is it already default?).

I only care about default with this.

When a non-default balance setting is widespread, that tells you something is not quite right.

Well then argue that with the minsta folks. I personally don't like minsta but I don't see how they're hurting us by using non-default settings.

First the laser is underused ("There are many, many people out there not using the laser with any frequency."), now it is overused.

It is overused by the minority of people who choose to use it with max advantage in mind. That is they can use it in and for every situation, be it speed, climbing, evasion, etc., and so they do. The ability to spam with it drowns out too much of the advantages of more subtle features like ramp jumps or nonhitscan weapons, which cheapens the game, imo.

Upping laser damage isn't a good idea because it will definitely slow down the gameplay. 25 is already one quarter of starting health, and one eighth of max health.

LOL, "would slow down gameplay" is not an instant win argument for every situation, despite its popularity.

For one, it's still an opinion that that would slow down gameplay in any tangible way. There's so many factors that make a game fast paced.

For two, significant improvements to balance and depth could easily outweigh a slight decrease in this special acceleration method.

For three, there's a million and a half things you could do to compensate for any slow down and bring the pace right back to where it was or higher. Increase laser force, increase the availability of movement features like jetpack and/or hook in default (or default maps), shrink map sizes, add vehicles, etc.

Also the laser does 35 damage in Nexuiz 2.5.2, so maintaining that level into Xonotic isn't a major change at all.

Well then argue that with the minsta folks. I personally don't like minsta but I don't see how they're hurting us by using non-default settings.

Minsta is different, mods such as minsta are found in a lot of games. Playing minsta isn't the same thing as correcting ridiculous balance.

LOL, "would slow down gameplay" is not an instant win argument for every situation, despite its popularity.

For one, it's still an opinion that that would slow down gameplay in any tangible way. There's so many factors that make a game fast paced.

I'm not saying it's an instant win argument, I am speaking my mind (much like you are speaking yours).

For two, significant improvements to balance and depth could easily outweigh a slight decrease in this special acceleration method.

Perhaps you could propose these improvements?

For three, there's a million and a half things you could do to compensate for any slow down and bring the pace right back to where it was or higher. Increase laser force, increase the availability of movement features like jetpack and/or hook in default (or default maps), shrink map sizes, add vehicles, etc.

But you do not suggest any of these things, you just suggest to increase laser damage.

Also the laser does 35 damage in Nexuiz 2.5.2, so maintaining that level into Xonotic isn't a major change at all.

If it's already at 35, that's a good amount (it does around 25 self damage, which is what counts).

Minsta is different, mods such as minsta are found in a lot of games. Playing minsta isn't the same thing as correcting ridiculous balance.

And then you have hook and jetpack. Lots of mutators for different reasons, and no shortage of popularity. So any gameplay set with a significant minority of fans can continue as a mutator. Default is just the front door.

I'm not saying it's an instant win argument, I am speaking my mind (much like you are speaking yours).

Fair enough, my bad.

Perhaps you could propose these improvements?

Again? Kojn and myself already raised these not too long ago in tZork's weapon changes sticky thread. Like how laser over buffs cappers in CTF and keeping players in the air with the laser over buffs hitscan weapons, laser's movement power detracts from the usefulness and value of other movement maneuvers like ramp jumps, etc.

But you do not suggest any of these things, you just suggest to increase laser damage.

I did in the aforementioned thread, plus others. But I didn't want to derail another thread with a full on Laser Debate Part 2.

Plus I think it would not be a problem to just increase laser damage. These suggestions are possible compromises or possible solutions for making the laser 'work for everyone' wherein people give up what they don't care about and retain or gain what they want.

If it's already at 35, that's a good amount (it does around 25 self damage, which is what counts).

It is 35 in Nexuiz 2.5.2 and 25 in Xonotic trunk, last I checked. It got lowered with the changes to the health/armor balance.

And then you have hook and jetpack. Lots of mutators for different reasons, and no shortage of popularity. So any gameplay set with a significant minority of fans can continue as a mutator. Default is just the front door.

What matters is the severity of the gameplay change. Changing two cvars is a fix, not a mutator. Totally changing gameplay with another weapon, mode of transportation, etc. is a mutator.

...laser's movement power detracts from the usefulness and value of other movement maneuvers like ramp jumps, etc.

Why do you value these other movement maneuvers over the laser?

I did in the aforementioned thread, plus others. But I didn't want to derail another thread with a full on Laser Debate Part 2.

Yes, I see that now.

It is 35 in Nexuiz 2.5.2 and 25 in Xonotic trunk, last I checked. It got lowered with the changes to the health/armor balance.

Compromise at 30?

What matters is the severity of the gameplay change. Changing two cvars is a fix, not a mutator. Totally changing gameplay with another weapon, mode of transportation, etc. is a mutator.

Well then it would be even less significant of an issue, if you don't even need a mutator.

Why do you value these other movement maneuvers over the laser?

I don't necessarily value them more than the laser. I just don't value the laser more than all of them, while Nexuiz balance seemed to favor it much more so than the rest. As I said somewhere I just like some variety. (Plus all the aforementioned balance issues.)

Compromise at 30?

*You feel generous, 35 will do just fine.* [/jedi]

Well then it would be even less significant of an issue, if you don't even need a mutator.

Widespread small changes like that signify that it needs to be changed by default, I think.

I don't necessarily value them more than the laser. I just don't value the laser more than all of them, while Nexuiz balance seemed to favor it much more so than the rest. As I said somewhere I just like some variety. (Plus all the aforementioned balance issues.)

Well, you have a choice: loud, selfdamaging laser (which will almost always give you what you want) or silent, painless trickjumps (which may not work the first time). I think that's a fair tradeoff. Besides, relatively few maps even have trickjumps.

Widespread small changes like that signify that it needs to be changed by default, I think.

You've convinced me, we should just stick with a debuffed laser in default. No need for mutators or anything then. :)

Well, you have a choice: loud, selfdamaging laser (which will almost always give you what you want) or silent, painless trickjumps (which may not work the first time). I think that's a fair tradeoff. Besides, relatively few maps even have trickjumps.

No not just ramp jumps, I mean laser movement versus other methods, skills and tactics of movement. I'd rather see more variety from things like jet packs, grapple hooks, wall jumping, (sprinting, if it would be considered), etc.

Why do you value these other movement maneuvers over the laser?

I don't necessarily value them more than the laser. I just don't value the laser more than all of them, while Nexuiz balance seemed to favor it much more so than the rest. As I said somewhere I just like some variety. (Plus all the aforementioned balance issues.)

And what about strafejumping (which I'd personally like to push into default physics), circlejumps, doublejumps? The laser removes the significance of all movement tricks like these, and those that Flying Steel mentioned, except when you're at 50 hp or lower (at which point you'll be presented with a choice: evade with the laser or fight to death). Let's say removing the laser effectively means spreading it's job evenly across these tricks, and it'll also be up to the mapper to create more ramps, doublejump ramps etc. Which means it takes more skill to move around, and also allows for more skill development (than only mastering one trick that covers all) and more variety/fun right?

I think there are enough arguments against the laser to state that it breaks gameplay quite far, for many.
For the ones not wanting it to change, I'm 99% sure there will be a Nexuiz 2.5.2 balance config bundled together with Xonotic.

Obviously the good players think Xonotic has flaws, so we should FIX Xonotic!!
I see no reason to make a pro version at all... sounds like failure to me.

And if you disagree - there's always Nexuiz

Nobody's asking for a 'pro' version of the game morfar, you don't get that with other games.

Just asking for somethings to be 'fixed' or 'tweaked' whatever you want to call it to balance the gameplay.

And what about strafejumping (which I'd personally like to push into default physics), circlejumps, doublejumps? The laser removes the significance of all movement tricks like these, and those that Flying Steel mentioned, except when you're at 50 hp or lower (at which point you'll be presented with a choice: evade with the laser or fight to death).

In any situation, if you have two more or less equal options, but one does damage and the other does not, it makes sense to choose the one that does not.

Let's say removing the laser effectively means spreading it's job evenly across these tricks, and it'll also be up to the mapper to create more ramps, doublejump ramps etc. Which means it takes more skill to move around, and also allows for more skill development (than only mastering one trick that covers all) and more variety/fun right?

So basically, make a lot of maps less playable and pretend that jumping is an ok substitute for laser jumping.

I think there are enough arguments against the laser to state that it breaks gameplay quite far, for many.
For the ones not wanting it to change, I'm 99% sure there will be a Nexuiz 2.5.2 balance config bundled together with Xonotic.

Yet, this poll on this thread clearly stated people do not want large changes.

By the way, reducing the speed of a game by reducing the ability to laser everywhere for example doesn't neccessarily make it 'less fast paced'.

Fast paced shouldn't just be on movement, UT has slow movement for example but when playing in game it is a fast-paced fps with intense fighting, just want to clarify that it isn't all about movement that makes a game fastpaced.

Movement does help make an fps fast paced. Take tremulous - when you are in a fight, it's quite fast. Every other time, it is really slow. Fights are always fast, unless it's a turn-based strategy game.

I see no reason to make a pro version at all... sounds like failure to me.

Or simply signs of being careful...

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Let's say removing the laser effectively means spreading it's job evenly across these tricks, and it'll also be up to the mapper to create more ramps, doublejump ramps etc. Which means it takes more skill to move around, and also allows for more skill development (than only mastering one trick that covers all) and more variety/fun right?

So basically, make a lot of maps less playable and pretend that jumping is an ok substitute for laser jumping.

Less playable? I'm proposing optional trickjumps that would allow shortcuts and such, like the jumps on soylent. The maps themselves could be smaller and concise, and e.g. require a trickjump to a powerup or so. Finally the mapper can make areas actually require _SKILL_ to access (or a big risk with RL), instead of e.g. having to put the powerup at some extremely high/far away place thus requiring a combination of laserjumps and luck to access. (which is the only way I see the mapper can create a realistically hard to access spot in Nexuiz) As has been pointed out, people won't stick around much if they have learnt what there is to learn, and in Nexuiz there was never much to learn.

I think there are enough arguments against the laser to state that it breaks gameplay quite far, for many.
For the ones not wanting it to change, I'm 99% sure there will be a Nexuiz 2.5.2 balance config bundled together with Xonotic.

Yet, this poll on this thread clearly stated people do not want large changes.

15 vs 12 isn't very "clear" considering the wording in the initial post. Some voted no because "they don't want a q3a clone", or "grant permission to remake the whole game", but neither do I (could just go play q3a then, much bigger, readily available playerbase). At least we know that many DO want change, and making those in a separate balance is better than nothing. Also as morfar said though, we shouldn't be afraid of changes, and my personal opinion is that no promode is better than a promode. (less split community then) Just need people to be open for some changes then.

Now that I think about it. Modifying the laser into an offensive weapon while retaining it's current capabilities might be a good idea. By moving it's primary fire to the secondary and then putting something a bit more bad ass (such as a decent powered shot that has a fairly wide projectile) that relies on a charging system for ammo (but not firing) would make the game a bit more interesting.