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[SUGGESTION] Weapons function

MEH I shouldn't have mentioned the laser! Doh.

Go think about the crylink, will you? Stop thinking about the laser.

Smile
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

(05-06-2010, 12:51 PM)tZork Wrote: last time i checked nex did 100 dmg and rl 110. plus rl is stupidity easy to hit with with the rl given guidance and huge radius.

In that case, maybe bring the rl down to 100 and/or increase reload time, but keep the nex there as well, IMO.

Quote:I dont think the easy to use guns are the main problem (they may need dpa/aps ajust up or down a bit tough) imo the issue is with the hard guns to use, electro (hard to use 'right') crylink, hagar. Those are dead weight to many new (and even intermediate) players.

True. What if electro had an "area effect" splash damage before detonation like the fireball? And the hagar inherited the spread-growth inaccuracy trait of your HLAC, so that it was more accurate on the first few rounds?

Quote:I sort of agree laster jumps should be more expensive; but perhaps not in terms of health; there are other ways too - like refire time, ammo use (perhaps give the laser auto re-charging ammo type?)

That would be cool too.




(05-06-2010, 12:44 PM)parasti Wrote:
(05-06-2010, 11:07 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: If you want to spend the whole game laser jumping .. play minsta.

The laser and its usage as a movement tool is what defines this game and sets it apart from the dime-a-dozen Q3/UT inspired games.

Bullshit, that's the definition you decided to give it, I've never seen it defined so narrowly by an official source.

Quote:What game have you been playing while everybody else was playing Nexuiz?

Nexuiz.

Quote:This is not a "better looking OA" or "free UT" or an alternative to whatever is the name of that slow-moving sci-fi FPS that you come from.

Nexuiz is slow moving? I didn't know it was worse looking than open arena and proprietary like unreal either.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

I would probably have to agree with parasti here. I think the laser is what makes the game unique and defines it as being different from other quake-based games.

EDIT: Sorry this sounds hypocritical, but please stay on topic. Just realized after posting.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Lemmie see, if the camping rifle is beefed up, then nerfing the nex some won't matter. Besides, the flat shooting, hitscan, can't avoid, 110 damage nex should be automatic, right?
This is why we don't need two separate sniping weapons. And what do you mean by "automatic"?

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Charge it up to get more.
It's still rewarding "fast fingers", something you do not want to do for some reason.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: You've never been hit more than once from the same player while jumping from a high place?
You haven't learned not to jump from high places? Who are you playing?

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Bring a rocket to a nex fight and guess who loses?
I guess if you stand still with the rocket, there could be a problem...

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Try coming up from behind those snipers on facing worlds, good luck!
No problem. For the top position, teleport in and then RL. Or climb up the back. For the middle position teleport in and then RL. Or just spam hagar secondary.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Its easier to just have a standard switch time for all weapons.
What does standard switch time have to do with anything?

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Immediate switching was done before, and there's a reason we don't have it now.
The reason was because people exploited the refire timer. Oh, funny thing about that, my suggestion for per-weapon refire timers has been implemented for a while. So this argument completely goes away.


(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: What does this mean? I switch with laser and shotty now, and I don't get a whole lot of kills with that combo. I do it if all the bases weapons are taken.
Because it takes time to switch to and fro and because you do not know how to do that combo. I frequently get kills with that combo.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Tossing balls on the ground and waiting for someone to land on them is hard?
Who said this is hard? In any case, electro balls don't detonate from proximity. They have a timer and can also be set off if a ball is dealt a certain amount of damage.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Who actually hits someone directly with the electro secondary?
Happens to me sometimes.


(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Besides, spammers must be pummeled, in person if possible. I mean, thats what the nex and other weps are for.
From this, I draw the following conclusions.
A. 100% of people in the base are spammers.
B. Another weapon to do what several other weapons do is a good idea.
Which is incorrect?

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: But in reading some of the other posts, it seems to me that the type of maps we play now are an issue as well, which should be addressed.
Please be more specific.

Well on topic I just don't want to see a laser that can be used so many times in a row, as it could in nexuiz. As soon as the ceiling was higher than ~6 meters everyone would turn into nuclear jack rabbits. Among other things, I feel this adversely affects team play in CTF, by making it too simple for a lone carrier to fly out of hostile territory right after a cap.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

What's so bad about nuclear jack rabbits? I just like this very aspect of Nexuiz. Laser jumping and pushing is the funniest part of the game in my humble opinion. Leave the laser alone! Go away!

Look, I don't like the MG very much, how about we think about something we could do to THAT weapon?
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

(05-06-2010, 12:44 PM)parasti Wrote:
(05-06-2010, 11:07 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: If you want to spend the whole game laser jumping .. play minsta.

What game have you been playing while everybody else was playing Nexuiz? The laser and its usage as a movement tool is what defines this game and sets it apart from the dime-a-dozen Q3/UT inspired games. This is not a "better looking OA" or "free UT" or an alternative to whatever is the name of that slow-moving sci-fi FPS that you come from.


I completely disagree with this and agree with flying squirrel, he is only trying to point out he doesn't want to see it turn into another laser laser laser nex gun nexgun CTF gameplay i'm guessing.

What's wrong with making the laser do more damage to one's self?

Yes it's a tool, yes keep it..but don't kick off just because it's unbalanced, it does not do hardly any self-damage. You can't expect to have a starting weapon that will, fly you around maps, damage opponents and do hardly any self-damage..that's having a weapon with NO drawbacks for using it.

If you want balance you have to balance all weapons including the laser regardless if it definies the game or not.
(05-06-2010, 09:10 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Well on topic I just don't want to see a laser that can be used so many times in a row, as it could in nexuiz. As soon as the ceiling was higher than ~6 meters everyone would turn into nuclear jack rabbits. Among other things, I feel this adversely affects team play in CTF, by making it too simple for a lone carrier to fly out of hostile territory right after a cap.

Agreed with Flying Squirrel, I too just don't want to see a all-purpose weapon with no drawbacks which is essentially the laser, atleast make it have some kind of drawback heck isn't that the point of the weapons in xonotic so that they will have plusses and minusses in there use..there's plenty of ways to do this that have been mentioned, re-charging ammo like tZork said, more damage to one's self which imo is the most sensible, charge up time etc etc.

Just going 'no don't change it, it's what defines nexuiz' is ridiculous.

The game has had so many balance issues over the year's it's quite insane, this is the chance to make a game more enjoybale and gain a better player-base but so many people are so negative with wanting changes.

You may not want xonotic to be a 'run of the mill Q3/UT style game' but you also forgot these games have a lot in common, and they are also hugely popular.

At the end of the day the weapons are going to be getting changed regardless guys and girls, the point to the people defending the laser is you cannot expect to want other weapons to get changes and not the laser in it's current state, you can't have your cake and eat it.

My last words are, instead of wanting things that are super-different because 'otherwise were copying other games' why don't you think about what makes these game's so good..simplicity, balance and good gameplay, Q4 never was as popular as Q3 and the same with UT2004 and UT3 compared to UT1, most of the players did not like the dramatic changes in gameplay to the 'oldskool' UT1 and Q3 games.

Nexuiz originally was meant to be Oldskool Deathmatch/CTF..simplicity but it started to go so off track, much like this post has done.. so basically to summarise can we all stop complaining and give idea's regardless if you disagree or agree, just say you disagree but atleast give alternatives instead of just saying No.
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(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: This is why we don't need two separate sniping weapons. And what do you mean by "automatic"?
What I'm saying is that The nex is too easy to get a ton of kills with. If you add a charge up time there will be less easy kills with the nex. Fast fingers with the camping rifle will still get you the kills. I'm just saying make the nex a little more challenging to use and add an incentive to use the camping rifle. Charging the nex would have a release trigger, which is a different motion than the one currently used. It would just take longer to get the bigger damage. Maybe 50 is too low for you, but its a makes charging up to get the 110 more worth it. I don't mind rewarding fast fingers, but with the nex ,as it is now, reward is too high imo.

(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: You haven't learned not to jump from high places? Who are you playing?
When it's expedient, I do jump from high places, run into firefights, etc.

(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I guess if you stand still with the rocket, there could be a problem...
Who stands still with the RL? Anyway, in order to be effective you must close the distance to use the rl against the nex. Even so, 2 players with equal skill, one having a nex, the other having a rl, even at close distance, the nex user has an advantage.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Its easier to just have a standard switch time for all weapons.
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: What does standard switch time have to do with anything?
We were talking about a talking about the difference between immediate weapons switching (no delay) and the weapon switching the way it is now. Or did you forget..... That was in the last post, right?

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Immediate switching was done before, and there's a reason we don't have it now.
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: The reason was because people exploited the refire timer.
Which is exactly what I said the problem was, and the way it is now is fine.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: What does this mean? I switch with laser and shotty now, and I don't get a whole lot of kills with that combo. I do it if all the bases weapons are taken.
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Because it takes time to switch to and fro and because you do not know how to do that combo. I frequently get kills with that combo.
Seems like you don't understand between 'I don't get a whole lot' and 'none'. I switch between them when I don't have anything else, and I go up against rl, nexes, whatever. Usually, they get me because they have a more powerful weapon, but I do get them SOMETIMES.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Tossing balls on the ground and waiting for someone to land on them is hard?
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Who said this is hard? In any case, electro balls don't detonate from proximity. They have a timer and can also be set off if a ball is dealt a certain amount of damage.
I understand how the electro works. What I am saying is that the balls should do less damage until detonated by the primary fire. You know how the electro is generally used, spam the ground and don't even detonate. I am suggesting is to encourage using it as a combo weapon. Is it fun when the electro is used jump to spam the flag and wait for you to step on the balls? Do you remember the plasma rifle on UT1 and how the secondary fired a big, slow moving ball, which was detonated by the primary fire? What I am suggesting is no different.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Who actually hits someone directly with the electro secondary?
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Happens to me sometimes.
I get hit with very rarely.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Besides, spammers must be pummeled, in person if possible. I mean, thats what the nex and other weps are for.
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: From this, I draw the following conclusions.
A. 100% of people in the base are spammers.
B. Another weapon to do what several other weapons do is a good idea.
Which is incorrect?
I believe you said that the fireball would be used just as a spammers hanging around the base. That was from your last post. Are the mg and electro, the most notorious spam weapons in the game, used this way now on offense? Defense, clearly, is a different story.

(05-06-2010, 12:38 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: But in reading some of the other posts, it seems to me that the type of maps we play now are an issue as well, which should be addressed.
(05-06-2010, 06:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Please be more specific.
Read some of the other posts about the wide-open type of maps that are played. Perhaps that will elucidate my reference.

(I am beginning to wonder why this 'conversation' is still going on.)

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: What I'm saying is that The nex is too easy to get a ton of kills with. If you add a charge up time there will be less easy kills with the nex. Fast fingers with the camping rifle will still get you the kills. I'm just saying make the nex a little more challenging to use and add an incentive to use the camping rifle. Charging the nex would have a release trigger, which is a different motion than the one currently used. It would just take longer to get the bigger damage. Maybe 50 is too low for you, but its a makes charging up to get the 110 more worth it. I don't mind rewarding fast fingers, but with the nex ,as it is now, reward is too high imo.
A charge up time will not solve the problem with campers. Some dude sits in a spot with primary fire depressed, waits, then releases the trigger (half the motion of regular fire, likely half the time) and gets an "easy kill".

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: When it's expedient, I do jump from high places, run into firefights, etc.
Well, if someone's ready to juggle you with the nex, then it is not expedient anymore.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Who stands still with the RL? Anyway, in order to be effective you must close the distance to use the rl against the nex. Even so, 2 players with equal skill, one having a nex, the other having a rl, even at close distance, the nex user has an advantage.
Close range is bad for RL. Best is medium range. The curvy rockets and remote detonation make it easy to chase down your target.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Which is exactly what I said the problem was, and the way it is now is fine.
You missed both the part where I said why instant switching is no longer exploitable (bug fixed looong time ago) and why we need instant switching (funner combos, no more jamming).

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Seems like you don't understand between 'I don't get a whole lot' and 'none'. I switch between them when I don't have anything else, and I go up against rl, nexes, whatever. Usually, they get me because they have a more powerful weapon, but I do get them SOMETIMES.
Shotgun should not be a good weapon. It is a weapon that will just barely get you by, and motivates you to get a real gun.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: I understand how the electro works. What I am saying is that the balls should do less damage until detonated by the primary fire. You know how the electro is generally used, spam the ground and don't even detonate. I am suggesting is to encourage using it as a combo weapon. Is it fun when the electro is used jump to spam the flag and wait for you to step on the balls? Do you remember the plasma rifle on UT1 and how the secondary fired a big, slow moving ball, which was detonated by the primary fire? What I am suggesting is no different.
If you step on the balls, it's your fault. A laser will set them off.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: I get hit with very rarely.
Which is why it should do more damage than other kinds of electro attacks.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: I believe you said that the fireball would be used just as a spammers hanging around the base. That was from your last post. Are the mg and electro, the most notorious spam weapons in the game, used this way now on offense? Defense, clearly, is a different story.
Comparing the FB to the MG and electro is comparing a railgun to a nerf gun and water pistol. Two people in base with MG and Electro? No problem. Two people in base with fireball? Hold on to your ass.

(05-08-2010, 12:18 AM)GT_Gene Wrote: Read some of the other posts about the wide-open type of maps that are played. Perhaps that will elucidate my reference.
Wide open maps are the only kind of maps that will work with vehicles.

Kojun brings up good points that I didn't mention. The laser isn't sacrosanct- the physics and other weapons have seen plenty of rebalances, so the laser is fair game too regardless of whether you say it is for fighting or moving or both.

(05-07-2010, 03:10 AM)Halogene Wrote: What's so bad about nuclear jack rabbits?

They are bad for natural ecosystems. You don't care about the environment do you?

Quote:I just like this very aspect of Nexuiz. Laser jumping and pushing is the funniest part of the game in my humble opinion.

Regardless of how hilarious you find it, it makes the game less balanced in its current spammy state. Plus I didn't say anything about pushing other people around, if you want to waste time pushing noobs around the floor; increasing damage or self damage wouldn't affect your ability to push people.

Quote:Leave the laser alone! Go away!

Just because it is your first instinct to embrace cowardice, o' laser spammer, do not assume a real warrior could be so easily taunted to flight.

Quote:Look, I don't like the MG very much, how about we think about something we could do to THAT weapon?

Folks are, and it has already been rebalanced every damn version. Now it's the laser's turn too!
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

Tweak the laser with care. I personally would advise against it, I don't see a real problem with it. Tweaking damage or refire could impair wall climbing. Tweaking push could also impair that and cause several maps to become frustratingly unnavigable (almost reached the ledge on the jump, but not quite).

I'd only want to see either the damage increased (increases self damage, reducing repetition) or something like what tZork suggested, such as having laser usage rely on the same regenerating "fuel" that the jetpack and grappling hook use.

With a fuel based laser you could use it for a little while without losing health, but after that you'd have to use other movement features to remain agile and evasive.

Might make a lot of sense to make the laser offhand too. It wouldn't be such a pain to use then, in competitive matches. And would be more recognizable as a "movement feature" if that is mostly what it is.

Further, maybe mappers could choose how much fuel you could have in your supply and how fast it regenerated, plus whether players were equipped with an offhand laser, hook and/or jetpack. Mappers could then customize movement options to the design of that map, much like they can do with the available weapons. This could help fix a lot popular but broken maps too. The official onslaught map Reborn already does this, so it is partially implemented already.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

(05-08-2010, 09:08 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: or something like what tZork suggested, such as having laser usage rely on the same regenerating "fuel" that the jetpack and grappling hook use.
With a fuel based laser you could use it for a little while without losing health, but after that you'd have to use other movement features to remain agile and evasive.
This is a bad idea, laser should be used as often as you can.

(05-08-2010, 09:08 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Might make a lot of sense to make the laser offhand too. It wouldn't be such a pain to use then, in competitive matches. And would be more recognizable as a "movement feature" if that is mostly what it is.
This would be even worse than shotgun/laser merging.

I like what flyingsteel said, on campgrounds that francotirador made he had it as offhand so you had to do a jumppad jump to get the laser.

I think if it's going to be done it either has to be given at the start of games or as a pickup weapon and you just start with shotgun, no doubt no one will agree with this as they will happily want to play 5 second capture game's and then we can have another xxx amount of threads on how to stop the FC/how public games suck/nex is only useful weapon you can use to stop the FC Smile

Why should the laser be used often as you can? Atleast give us a reason why Roanoke, I completely disagree again you don't want there be any negative effect for using it, if the RL re-fired every 0.4 second I could easily just say 'because it should be fired as often as it can' but I'd just be completely FOS (Full of..you can probably work out hat the S means Wink ).

It needs to have some kind of skill to using it, it should do like 30-40 damage to yourself for using it (when have no armour), it should require some skill and not just laser all the time actually picking your points to use it.

Like flyingsteel said also, that change would not effect being able to 'ping' players around still which people seem to love doing, it would still have the same force..not recharge, it's only downside to using it would be it takes off a chunk of health which it should do anyway...
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(05-10-2010, 06:46 AM)kojn^ Wrote: I think if it's going to be done it either has to be given at the start of games or as a pickup weapon and you just start with shotgun, no doubt no one will agree with this as they will happily want to play 5 second capture game's and then we can have another xxx amount of threads on how to stop the FC/how public games suck/nex is only useful weapon you can use to stop the FC Smile
Are you suggesting the laser to be a pickup weapon?

(05-10-2010, 06:46 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Why should the laser be used often as you can?
If we want xonotic to be fast, we shouldn't penalize people by taking out almost half of their health. Hell, some walls would not be climbable anymore.

(05-10-2010, 06:46 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Like flyingsteel said also, that change would not effect being able to 'ping' players around still which people seem to love doing, it would still have the same force..not recharge, it's only downside to using it would be it takes off a chunk of health which it should do anyway...
Changing the recharge would basically mean that climbing walls with the laser is impossible. I have not had issues with being pinged about by lasers. At a distance, you have the advantage, up close, you have the advantage (or you're on equal ground), because you either have a better weapon or still have the laser.

I'm suggesting it either be pickup or starting weapon one OR the other, if it inflicts a decent amount of self-damage I have no complaints with it being a starting weapon, in-fact I think it should be..just not how it is at the moment though, increase the self-damage to make it a useful tool..not one that can be used like 8x in a row and hit opponents also, there's no disadvantage with it.

You say 'some' walls.

Xonotic will be having new maps, and what walls do you even need to climb..capturecity? I wouldn't even expect that map to make it to an official release as a quality map. Use the jumpads that are on most maps to get out of places, that's decent maps anyway, i I just do not see that map ever making it into an official release anyway.

The goal as far as i'm aware is to update SOME of the old maps make them look better and higher quality, mappers are much better these days with design anyway, if you want to play the older maps you can always use a mutator for the current laser if they didn't work with a laser that did more self-damage

Xonotic should be fast by movement, as in using the bunnyhopping/physics where your team-mates can help to back you up (CTF mainly)... not just using the laser to complete maps in under 6 seconds, it's just no gameplay, and all people will do is whine about not being able to slow the FC down depending on what weapons (will also be getting changed a bit) they have, or wanting a weapon like the crylink to slow a FC down, what about the other weapons being used for godsake, or do they become redundant!?

Now if someone is flying around less, the other currently less used weapons at the moment would be much more useful and used more.

I'd rather have a mutator for the current laser, but if you want maps to be constantly done in low times, countless 'increasing teamplay on publics servers' and weapon balancing threads again about public CTF (because thats what will happen).

I don't really want xonotic to degenerate into that, I think it really kills teamplay to be honest and it's not surprising if people are just going to laser about on solo runs now is it?

The reason I stopped playing CTF in general was too low fps on my old machine, and secondly due to laser laser laser cap, rinse-repeat.

How about creating a game that promotes teamwork rather then solo....

Yes you can argue then, can't get past campers on facingworlds etc but what to expect on a map that has 4+ nex guns on it? expect quite an overhaul with Xonotic atleast with maps, and weapon changes, that's what this thread is meant to be about.

I won't go on about this anymore Roanoke your free to argue a case but i'll concentrate on the topic at hand.

I saw in a video crylink fire being like Q3s plasmagun that looked cool, who did those settings and does someone have the settings for it?
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(05-08-2010, 04:13 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(05-07-2010, 03:10 AM)Halogene Wrote: What's so bad about nuclear jack rabbits?
They are bad for natural ecosystems. You don't care about the environment do you?
Oh, yes I do indeed - too much actually. Nuclear jack rabbits are an endangered species, and it seems that I am partly responsible for that by raising this issue.

(05-08-2010, 04:13 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(05-07-2010, 03:10 AM)Halogene Wrote: I just like this very aspect of Nexuiz. Laser jumping and pushing is the funniest part of the game in my humble opinion.
Regardless of how hilarious you find it, it makes the game less balanced in its current spammy state. Plus I didn't say anything about pushing other people around, if you want to waste time pushing noobs around the floor; increasing damage or self damage wouldn't affect your ability to push people.
Somehow I don't really see this imbalance. Apart from that, if you knew me at all, you'd also know that I always focus on the strongest players in a match and sometimes even drop a weapon to "noob" players while running past them. And I am using the laser against skilled players too - and NOT because it is so ridiculously overpowered, but because I find it quite hard to use properly and killing someone with the laser is quite a challenge.

(05-08-2010, 04:13 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(05-07-2010, 03:10 AM)Halogene Wrote: Leave the laser alone! Go away!
Just because it is your first instinct to embrace cowardice, o' laser spammer, do not assume a real warrior could be so easily taunted to flight.
Darn, my ingenious plan failed.

(05-08-2010, 04:13 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(05-07-2010, 03:10 AM)Halogene Wrote: Look, I don't like the MG very much, how about we think about something we could do to THAT weapon?

Folks are, and it has already been rebalanced every damn version. Now it's the laser's turn too!
No it isn't. Stop it stop it stop it

* Halogene plugs his fingers into his ears and chants
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

(05-17-2010, 03:07 AM)Halogene Wrote: Somehow I don't really see this imbalance. Apart from that, if you knew me at all, you'd also know that I always focus on the strongest players in a match and sometimes even drop a weapon to "noob" players while running past them. And I am using the laser against skilled players too - and NOT because it is so ridiculously overpowered, but because I find it quite hard to use properly and killing someone with the laser is quite a challenge.

No shooting people with the laser isn't imbalanced, only the laser jumping is imbalanced. The laser could do more damage to people you hit with it in fact, this would be an improvement IMO, since simply knocking them around isn't really that effective.

But the extreme amount of laser jumping the game currently allows, hurts CTF, hurts teamplay, hurts non-hitscan projectile type weapons (which have a hard time with high speed mid-air targets) and hurts more skillful or diverse kinds of movement. If the laser is less effective as a movement device then these things can be better and more easily balanced.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

Well I might add that I hardly play anything else than dm these times (due to lack of teamplay and friendly atmosphere on the CTF servers that I used to play on). So if you all are talking about balancing CTF I have to admit that I cannot really judge the laser's influence on CTF balance. But I don't think it would be a good solution to tweak the weapons on a per-game mode basis, too. So if CTF balance is totally screwed by the laser, increase the self-damage a bit.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be wise to increase the overall damage of the laser, since the laser is primarily a tool, not a weapon. And the laser is very powerful as it is, in my opinion, at least on space maps. There are a couple of space maps where I always use laser only and I am doing very well on these maps, even against opponents where I would have difficulities winning against on other maps.

So my bottom line is that I'd be really sad if the laser's self damage would be increased, but if a screwed CTF balance couldn't be cured otherwise, then go ahead. The nuclear jack rabbit effect is very appealing to me, but balancing gameplay is more important.

I could bite my arse off that I mentioned the laser.
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

People seem confused as to what Xonotic is supposed to be (I am, too). Is it Nexuiz with tweaks and new graphics, or a new game with new weapons and balance? Half suggest new stuff and other half want to keep things as close as possible to Nexuiz with minor tweaks. Trying to please both, I can't imagine the result being anything but a mess and with a weapon balance that makes no sense. This time the dumpster effect would not be on graphics and content, but on gameplay. Not trying to be pessimist, I'm just making an observation, feel free to disagree I won't argue about it.

So what is the goal here? It can go either way since new weapon models are being made, it doesn't have to be Nexuiz weapons with new effects. Would it be better to start from scratch and only take ideas from Nexuiz? Like, start with fewer weapons that all have different behaviors to each other, and go from there, add more weapons later. I mean, all maps were removed and all player models too, it could make sense to do the same with weapons. Even physics are being changed, this does affect weapon balance too in a way. However the frontpage seems to suggest is it more a tweaked Nexuiz than a new game. Which is it?

Would be nice to know what the devs actually think about this. I know the "planning" isn't done, but maybe making this clearer would help.

I believe it's going to be 'new' weapons so to speak, but basically some of the same weapons but there functions atleast or how they react are going to be changed, like rocket's being faster..electro being different, rifle instead of nexgun..no idea on that though but makes sense.

I agree with you though Nifrek I would rather see like 9 standard weapons, which are all really done nicely models and settings then lot's of stuff all at once, I think this put's less load on the dev's and keeps things simple if they game is going to be more like a 'new' game but with some of nexuiz's stuff.

As for physics, I believe they will still be easy to use no doubt about that, I have to be honest and say I haven't tested for atleast a week or spoke to divVerent, but they seemed to be pretty good before and very similar to nexuiz but just more maneouvarable. (love dodge also, hope it get's in Smile ).

To be honest Nexuiz had quite a bad 'image' especially on same gaming site's from it's first releases because of how (honest truth here) bad it was in it's early stages..bad being the really horrendous online lag and laggy/sloppy movement.

I think that just basically re-packaging nexuiz under a new name without making significant changes isn't going to fool many people.

For me what I've seen so far of xonotic, it's artwork, maps being made, some of the new models etc it's all how I imagined it everything looks far superior quality and the devs and contributors are obviously putting a lot of hard work into it.

When it comes to stuff like balancing actual damage and stuff like your on about nifrek..well we have to see what/if new changes the weapons have, then they can be balanced accordingly, but I guess it makes sense since everything else is going to be essentially new, otherwise it doens't make sense to me.
Good post halogene, I think it would help balance CTF, but it wouldn't have really much of an effect on other gametypes such as DM/keyhunt to be honest, if assault ever get's maps (I hope someone can make atleast 2) I can imagine with the laser's current settings it'd just be exactly the same as CTF, as people would just laser over stuff or to a button or whatever instead of really being able to defend an area effectively (ut2004 basically hampered shield jumping but UT people found effective ways of using the Impact Hammer to do shortcuts but it cost them over half there health). I guess basically if less people are lasering constantly and perhaps only once or twice you can put all weapons to effect and it would make it interesting. And again as flying steel said the (current weapons anyway) are very hard to hit people in the air except a few, even with new weapons/settings (if that's whats happening!?) I don't think your going to be able to fix the problem so simplest solution is to make people be in the air less.
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(05-18-2010, 06:47 AM)kojn^ Wrote: ... I don't think your going to be able to fix the problem so simplest solution is to make people be in the air less.

You know, my favorite game before Nexuiz was Descent (I/II/3), so maybe that explains why making people be in the air less is equivalent to taking the fun out of the game for me... am I the only one that feels like this?
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

Descent I/II/3 are completely different games though as the whole point in that is that your meant to be in the air lol?

I just would like to have some decent games instead of laser killing matches..more so just balanced gameplay.
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(05-18-2010, 07:50 AM)Halogene Wrote: You know, my favorite game before Nexuiz was Descent (I/II/3), so maybe that explains why making people be in the air less is equivalent to taking the fun out of the game for me... am I the only one that feels like this?

Lol, actually I'm a big fan of the descent games and general aerial combat. That's why I like the jetpack so much (even though its horizontal thrust is ~twice what it should to be balanced).

The trouble is that health/armor stacked flag thieves jumping in and out of your base, almost instantly, with much of the arsenal unable to counter them (because they are moving both quickly and through the air where splash damage weapons are mostly useless) just breaks too much of CTF.

If we had character classes, I'd say leave the laser as it is, but only allow it on class(es) with a low health/armor ceiling.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

Oh my god, after reading all this posts it seems to me like i played a totally different game than you guys the past years.

After I started with Nexuiz the nex and the mg were nerfed several times and although i rarely use mg and cannot hit anything with the nex (when the nex was nerfed the first time i did not even use it at all, because i got killed before i could shoot), yet i hated every single nerf.
Then a dozen new weapons were added which i also hate and find pretty imbalanced (for instance the fireball primary is so slow that you cannot use it tactically - but maybe i see it a little different because i'm a ctf-player and suck at everything else plus it might be just my inablitity to use those Big Grin).

someone of you said: change to erase redundance and to rebalance.
I neither see redundance nor disbalance in the old weapons.
People complain about the nex being too powerful, but you first need to hit with it (which became harder with the longer reload) in order to make damage (which became twice or trice weaker since the nerfs). Also you want to remove the kinetic energy of the nex. Great, you cannot shoot enemys down the cliff with it anymore, but have you considered that a nex-shot in the back of an armoured enemy FC might bring him out of your range with the current balance, so you are forced to think twice before shooting him with the nex?
People complain about the electro being almost useless, but other say they don't want others to spam with it. If someone spams it i change to my electro and blow all his balls up - where is the problem?

Everything is a matter of skill. Noobs running around sometimes do me a pretty hard time with their MG while i cannot use it at all. Most people say the crylink sucks, however there are some people who can use it so well that they do better damage than with a nex. Every weapon has advantages and disadvantages and i consider them pretty balanced. The nex does much damage, but you need ammo for that. I often end up dieing without ammo. The electro can be used as tactical weapon as well as mass-damage. The Mortar is just perfect for flickshots or for kicking people off the map. The rocketlauncher delivers huge damage, but you rarely can use it to chase the enemies FC and so on.

Also you want to change the laser. I like the idea of a laser with variable strength. However i am completely oposed to the idea to make the laser deliver more damage. That would not only slow down the whole game it would also and up in ctf being some weird DM with a flag like it is in all the other games. Why can't Xonotic be special? Why do you want to make it as common as all the other games?
Additionally it would turn the laser to an assault weapon, which would take it's very special character away and create redundance Tongue

Kojn complains about ctf being just lasering to the enemy flag and lasering egoisticly back. This really shocked me for i was thinking you were more experienced. CTF is just won by proper teamplay due to the current weapon balance. An example: Facing is a map where everyone camps (which is imo just a part of the game!). We in [CON] always tried to cover the FC with our bodys in order to shelter him from the enemies campers. Between MH and the Armor the roamer does that. Afterwards the defender does that job. (I could add other example but this post is already a tldr-candidate Big Grin)
Critisizing the attempt to get the flag as far home as possible (i.e. with laser jumps) is like critisizing ice-hockeyplayers for being so fast that you can barely follow and need to watch the slow-mo in order to see if it was a goal or not. Thats why the teams try to cross-cap with tactical positions of the players. Thats why we need strong far-range weapons (nex, mg) to shoot the escaping FC. Of course we could just take all the speed out of the game and nerf the nex again in order to make the people use the HLAC more. great idea.

Finally i want to state that i do like some of the ideas (changing armour-pierce of weapons, variable laserpower, adding headshots) but i beg you to not take this too far! You already changed the good old nexuiz very very much and especially the older players disliked many of those (damn give me back the old CTF-scoring system :'( ). Some changes are ok (even if i dont like them xD) but PLEASE don't create a completly new game.



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