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[SUGGESTION] Weapons function

If you can't even hit enemies with the machine gun and nex, how are people supposed to take all of these opinions of yours seriously? You have to have some basic skill with the game before you know where it needs to go to be more balanced.

And you actually defend laser flag caps outright.

You seem to be trying to push the game even more in the direction where you just have a lone laser caper getting shot at by anyone lucky enough to have an overpowered hitscan type weapon, while everyone else just stands around and wonders why they downloaded this game.

And the laser as an assault weapon? Don't make me laugh. Do you know how much it's damage would need to be increased to put its lethality anywhere close to that of a pickup weapon?
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

Ahem. Have you ever played against killgenerals? Don't assume he is unskilled just because he says he can't use the MG well. If I remember correctly, killgenerals is a quite skilled player.

I am no good at the mg either, and that's for the sole reason that I don't like the weapon concept so much and therefore have not much practice using it :o)
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

I wouldn't know, I don't really remember names until I've seen them repeatedly over different occasions.

But to be honest, I was more reacting to the comments about the Nex than the MG. The MG was overpowered in 2.3 and 2.5.2, but never any other version that I've played. However the Nex has always been overpowered, even if less so recently. It is a 100% accurate, hitscan weapon that kills consistently with two strikes, sometimes three. The longish reload is nullified by minimal cover or using another weapon in the short interim. Ammo is plentiful.

And if someone means to say that the 2.5.2 fireball was useless then blah.

Plus calling kojn's experience into question on the basis that he feels laser caps are too dominant, how is that any better?
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

I just don't understand most of your ideas. You are trying to create a complete new game, by editiing every weapon.
Although i hate those, i accept minor changes. But this goes to far. It would destroy major points of CTF and create a completely different experience in the other modes.

Actually I've only mentioned changes to the laser and nex in this thread. Most everyone else has been discussing changes to every weapon in the arsenal, but not me.

I feel that the biggest imbalance issues stem from the extreme settings of these two weapons, so they should be the major focus of a rebalance, not everything else.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

You don't have to feel being attacked personally Tongue

In my opinion the Nex is weak enough. It became weaker and weaker and weaker with every version and it is weak enought since it was introduced Big Grin

concerning the laser: all the suggestions to make more damage or longer reload or ammo would destroy CTF as we know it. CTF is a fast game. First people said: "CTF is not about fragging." And they removed the frags from the winning condition. Just caps count.
Now people are complaining about fast caps.

It is vital in this game to have a fast and good working laser to make crosscaps which are an important part of the tactic.
I don't see at all where you guys find the people who cap to fast. Public servers are usually so croweded that there are permanent crosscaps. Non-Public there is stuff like defence and teamplay. Someone just rushing in with only the laser will not come through in most of the cases if the defending team is not too dumb. And if he comes through and can capture, than he deserves that, for he is really really good (yet this won't happen too often).
I have played countless non-public and public matches and i never felt this would be an issue at all.

If you nerf the laser it will and in a tdm like mode with ocasional caps.

(05-20-2010, 01:36 PM)killgenerals Wrote: You don't have to feel being attacked personally Tongue

I don't feel that way atm, I just wanted to make clearer the distinction between what I'm saying and what others have said.

Quote:First people said: "CTF is not about fragging." And they removed the frags from the winning condition. Just caps count.
Now people are complaining about fast caps.

Totally agree, here. Frags in CTF added both more depth and better balance.

Quote:Someone just rushing in with only the laser will not come through in most of the cases if the defending team is not too dumb. And if he comes through and can capture, than he deserves that, for he is really really good (yet this won't happen too often).

The defending team doesn't have that many options, unless the map is too cramped for the laser to be used inside the base and surrounding area. Defense's main hope is to shoot the carrier out of the air with enough well placed nex and mg rounds, before he gets out of range or past some cover.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

I invite you to watch some matches by my mates and me in order to see what options the defence with good teamplay has, and that laser is absolutely no overpowered option.

What maps are you playing on, btw?
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

I did a thread about that Tongue
But usally the four official maps: runningman, facing, greatwall, bloodprison.
If we got more than 3on3 we try to play another map (like moonstone, darkzonectf, mikectf2 and so on)

(05-20-2010, 03:45 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: What maps are you playing on, btw?

basicly every ctf map avaiable

(05-20-2010, 10:14 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: If you can't even hit enemies with the machine gun and nex, how are people supposed to take all of these opinions of yours seriously? You have to have some basic skill with the game before you know where it needs to go to be more balanced.

And you actually defend laser flag caps outright.

You seem to be trying to push the game even more in the direction where you just have a lone laser caper getting shot at by anyone lucky enough to have an overpowered hitscan type weapon, while everyone else just stands around and wonders why they downloaded this game.

And the laser as an assault weapon? Don't make me laugh. Do you know how much it's damage would need to be increased to put its lethality anywhere close to that of a pickup weapon?

What you basically have said killgenerals is, increase the hitscan weapon strength to deal with the FCs..that's basically just not reading anything what I wrote.

Sure you may be passionate about not wanting some changes, but please try to think logically.

Adding extra strength to the hitscan weapons isn't going to fix the problem, it's still going to make the other weapons just as redunant to use, DM/TDM everyone would just go for the hitscan constantly in that case also.

The point is, when you make a sick shot with the other weapons it should be luck/skill, the problem at the moment is so many people lasering around very quickly that it really is a case of luck unless you have a hitscan weapon, which is effectively the mg and nexgun.

Nexuiz always had problems attracting mainstream players from the other-games when it first came out due to the bad lag/sloppy movement it had, and it got tarred with this brush ever since, sure each version got a bit better, but so many people were so angered by how poor versions were they literally gave up on it, some people like myself rode it out till now, some liked it fullstop, some hated it fullstop.

What i'm trying to say is, just re-packaging Nexuiz with a newname and some better graphics (lets not forget they got better with every version anyway), isn't going to attract new players, and I feel the Dev's knew this and why they wanted Nexuiz 2.6 to be a big change <-- Weapons

Everyone knows there has been multiple weapon changes from early on, because the balance was really quite screwed, there's nothing wrong with making things simpler, why does everything have to be over-engineered.

After all 'Nexuiz' was meant to bring back fast-paced old-skool DM, then it became a mix-mash of everything, which made resources stretched so far, it lost it's way.

Imo if people want to add stuff it should be via mods like most other games, the core content should be worked on and minor changes to make the game stable, I hope Xonotic goes this way (someone wrote a good post on the dumpster effect, vebe or someone, basically posted my thoughts).

Basically killgenerals, don't be so negative about change but look forward to it, for better or for worse depending what I become, if it makes the game have a stable balance, attracts more players and delivers a better game I'm all for it, I'd rather have change making something better and adapt then sticking to a game that was becoming stale.

And to finish it off, get GIT, test it, and let's comment on the CURRENT weapon settings, thats what I will do now, we can have our own personal discussions on IRC Smile
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(05-20-2010, 03:44 PM)killgenerals Wrote: I invite you to watch some matches by my mates and me in order to see what options the defence with good teamplay has

(05-20-2010, 04:07 PM)killgenerals Wrote: But usally the four official maps: runningman, facing, greatwall, bloodprison.

however it's important to note that facing worlds and greatwall are really defensive maps (a.k.a campfests) which means that playing on these maps is not a good indication of how effective defence usually is.

..also i didn't know anyone even played bloodprison ctf :S

I'd be happy to change weapons quite a bit, It would be epic if every gun had a situation where it was the best choice. At the moment, i can't think of a single situation where the hagar would be the best choice Sad
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It is also worth remembering how not so very long ago EVERYONE was screaming about how overpowered the hitscan weapons had become in 2.5.2. Doing that again to counter laser jumping in CTF will almost certainly not stand, especially amongst DMers. Let alone how useless it would make the projectile weapons in such a balance.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.

(05-20-2010, 06:01 PM)kojn^ Wrote: What you basically have said killgenerals is, increase the hitscan weapon strength to deal with the FCs.
No I did not demand that. I said I was much more happy when the nex had more power and back in that time i did not use the nex at all but just got shot.
I said I want the nex to stay like it is and not to make it even weaker.

All your attempts to "balance" seem to be the idea "hey, let's make everything independent from skill". If this is not your point, you will create new weapons within which will be one that will be overpowered, too. Why do you consider the nex so overpowerd? Consider some guy camping on facing worlds. He stands at the top of the tower and sees the enemys FC running by on the ground. If he shoots him with the nex he will most likely catapult him in his base and ease his cap. This effect is even more obvious with the shield. Shooting a guy with shield in the back is stupidity.

Quote:The point is, when you make a sick shot with the other weapons it should be luck/skill, the problem at the moment is so many people lasering around very quickly that it really is a case of luck unless you have a hitscan weapon, which is effectively the mg and nexgun.
That is if you consider maps like facing which are very open (but usually have man hitscan weapons, which erases the problem). I often shoot the lasering FCs of the other team with RL and mortar on runningman. Electro is quite powerful there, too, yet i rarely use it, to be honest. In fact the nex just becomes overpowered with increased skill, especially on closed maps like RM. But if your skill is superior with another weapon that weapon will be overpoweredm, too.

Quote:Nexuiz always had problems attracting mainstream players from the other-games when it first came out due to the bad lag/sloppy movement it had [...]
I often saw mainstream players coming from CS or ET sitting in some corner or behind a box camping. After they good killed to much due to the fast gameplay they left and never were seen again. All people whom i showed basics of the gameplay, which is quite special and not at all mainstream, sticked to the game, despite this "big crappy disbalance" like you might call it Tongue
It might be my disstorted punctual experience, but i learned that mostly not disbalance in weapons but the unusual fast/laser-based and thus nexuiz-specific gameplay irritates newcomers.

Quote:there's nothing wrong with making things simpler, why does everything have to be over-engineered.

Yet there were introduced even more weapons. I have barely an overview and stick to my favorite-weapons instead. I don't wanna know how complicated it will become if every weapons becomes extremely specializied and if you have to have 10 weapons if you defend just to be ready to strike back on every occasion (although i like the basic idea for different armor-pierce of the weapons).

Quote:however it's important to note that facing worlds and greatwall are really defensive maps (a.k.a campfests) which means that playing on these maps is not a good indication of how effective defence usually is.
We were forced to play on those, because the ladderservers were limited to those four. I opened a thread to try out new maps and actually we already played a lot others but most frequently we stick to those four, due to server limitations and it doesn't make sense to say "yeah and we played that one and that other one, too, once."
However the most played map in matches with my participation has been runningman which is very demanding in atk and deff and which cannot be won by camping or just sticking to nex. Try and shoot around the corner with the nex Tongue

Quote:..also i didn't know anyone even played bloodprison ctf Confused
It is played rarly indeed. Yet i remember a great match [CON] vs #random + esteel
to be exact: Diomedes, Sless, I vs ai, morfar and esteel.
ai, morfar and esteel are definetly way better nexgun-shooters than any of us. Nevertheless they literally slaughtered us on this nex-free map. We choosed it because we hoped to have a better chance against them if they are robbed of their superior nex-skill.

Quote:It is also worth remembering how not so very long ago EVERYONE was screaming about how overpowered the hitscan weapons had become in 2.5.2.
I did not.

(05-20-2010, 11:14 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: It is also worth remembering how not so very long ago EVERYONE was screaming about how overpowered the hitscan weapons had become in 2.5.2. Doing that again to counter laser jumping in CTF will almost certainly not stand, especially amongst DMers. Let alone how useless it would make the projectile weapons in such a balance.

that discussion is going for ages. the nex damage is decreased since the 1st version. There are always persons unhappy with some settings.

Well back to my first point, increase laser self-damage, leave everything else with it as it is Smile
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What I always like to mention when people start to argue about attracting new players is that of course people coming from mainstream games have to get used to Xonotic (or, formerly: Nexuiz) and its non-mainstream gameplay. Many of those players coming from mainstream games might not like it. That's because Xonotic just isn't mainstream. And that's exactly what I like about it so much, and I bet for quite a good portion of the player base this is what sets Xonotic apart, too. I strongly object to making Xonotic a kind of mainstream game.

I have to second killgenerals in that aspect that whenever I take newbies to a 1on1 training where I show them laser jumping, ramp jumping, bunny hopping and circle jumping, they are quite amazed and impressed. The laser based movement is a feature that truly sets Xonotic apart from other games and provides a challenge that offers, if mastered, great rewards (I for one could run around in soylent dm enjoying the movement and smoothing my paths for ages. But maybe that's also the music score of that map...).
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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser

If you consider Halogenes post you hopefully will find, that increasing the laser dmg will destroy the game es we know. At least CTF, keyhunt and all other teambased mods Tongue
I often experience that i barely have enough health to escape from the base. If you increase the dmg this will happen more often and earlier.
Nowadays CTF is a fast game based on fast laser-movement (but not only -.-).
Increasing damage means: you cannot rush in and out, even if deff is crappy. It means you have to fight your way in and fight your way out again. This is terribly slow.

Additionaly this conclusion will lead to the distrcution of the usual 3on3CTF. 3on3CTF was considered the best way to play non-public, because the non-public scene is too small to do regular 4on4 or 5on5 or even bigger matches (in europe). In fact it turned out to be even too small for 3on3ctf.
However 3on3CTF is usally based on rushes, because you just don't have enough players. The attacker cannot risk fights in the enemies base because enemies keep spawning there.
If you take away the laser by embiggen its damage you make those rushes even harder leaving the teams no choice but to either fight slowly until they, with massive fights and losses finally reach their base (which won't happen to often in the 20minutes).

If you really saw hordes of people laserjumping to your base you surely have been able to kill them with AoD-weapons or even the shotgun easily for they are mostly low-healthed when reaching your base. The usual tactic on 3on3 would be for the roamer to distract or even kill the defender, while the attacker tries to rush in and out. The situations you described can only happen if you are facing lots of attackers as the only defender on public mass-matches. This is a matter of teamwork, not of laser-balance. You will not see that happen in serious matches likely, because this "tactic" will just lead to the death of all attackers Tongue

the last point applies especially open maps, or maps with generally a little amount of health and armor, where laser jumping can help you a lot.

Mainstream was the wrong word, UT/Q3, but these are two of the best examples of Classic DeathMatch games along with Quakeworld obviously, nexuiz was meant to bring DM back to basics, but then it didn't..it went all over the place, that was my point argued quite badly, that's what I meant with don't over-engineer weapons, also why lot's of people still enjoy playing these games look at QLive, it's basically Q3 with a few small tweaks but people love it but it didn't change anything major..Nexuiz wanted to be a bit of one thing, a bit of something else, had to have different movement, completely different weapons, sure that's nice i'm not saying it isn't, but it also never had a very good balance either but it certainly didn't have the backing/Contributors that 'Xonotic' now has either.

Anyway i'm guilty of dragging this thread more and more off-topic so I will stop.

So basically i'd rather have simplified stuff like, shotgun as a proper starting weapon..it's there just to get you going, THATS it not what it is like now.

laser to also be a start weapon/tool, but one that is used not 4-5 time's lasering in a row, make it so for example IF you have 100 health start standard, it would do like 35-40 damage to one's self so you can only laser twice with standard health without killing yourself, you would atleast have to pinpoint where you using it to get the best distance/height, not just lasering from any position. (health regens anyway, I have no idea actually if that will happen in Xonotic but i'm guessing it will..?)

Basically that would do well for starters.

machinegun - chaingun/minigun style, primary to fire very fast but be only good very close up but eat ammo like hell, secondary to be more accurate..basically how it eats ammo in current GIT for both fire-modes maybe could eat more ammo a bit need to play with it tonight.
crylink as somekind of pulse cannon/plasma rapid fire primary - perhaps make primary similar to like UT's pulsegun? Secondary no idea
hagar - I honestly have no idea what to do with this, some kind of spam weapon obviously.
RL - Make it have faster speed like it does in current GIT I really like this, reduce the crazy splash so you have to be more accurate with it to do damage, but a direct hit (as in smack on the body/face) does a lot of damage.
Nex - replace with sniper rifle, camping rifle currently in GIT is very good at the moment fire rate wise or include campingrilfe as sniper. Someone before wanted to make nex similar to UT's shock primary..was this you Samual?
Electro - bio/electro/Plasma mortar primary, secondary..some kind of charge up similar to bio-rifle but does something different?
Mortar - Grenade launcher primary but make it so nades don't bounce crazily everywhere if possible so more controlled, secondary somekind of sticky nade you can hit people with and it sticks/drop on floor then explodes after say 3 seconds?

Reduce the crazy force of all weapons, still so you can throw people about, but so it's toned down a little.
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(05-20-2010, 08:40 PM)Trev_Nacho Wrote: At the moment, i can't think of a single situation where the hagar would be the best choice Sad

Then start using it! Hagar is the best weapon for creating a firestorm in an area that it out of your immediate reach. All other projectile weapons are too slow and lose a lot of their effectiveness over distance, while hagar is fast and has little spread.

(05-21-2010, 07:17 AM)killgenerals Wrote: Increasing damage means: you cannot rush in and out, even if deff is crappy. It means you have to fight your way in and fight your way out again. This is terribly slow.

Your meant to fight your way in and out with the help of your team, aggressive rushing shouldn't pay off as often as it currently does, that's the whole point

CTF is meant to be a team-game, same as TDM, you should have to frag your way in and get back out again, not get in then laser straight out over the map, If I have to I will post video's again from other game's showing teamplay doing this, there is way way too many solo run's in nexuiz, it's not even solo run's that bother me..sure that is skill, it's the fact that when someone lasers out of a wall it's often you cannot do anything unless you have a hitscan weapon which is again back to point me and flying squirrel were making before, the other weapons are virtually redundant.
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I dont see the point of constant changes and addepting ideas form other games. Sometime ago it was fine, the there was a good balance between all weapons. the shotgun wasnt too powerful unlike now. there were also a good balance between the weapons and you dont 3 or more shots with the nex to kill some one. Just because its a fork, it doesnt mean you have to change the entire gameplay.
the laser was always a good tool not a useful weapon. Laserjumping was the key for a faster movement or reach plattforms easier, especially with mega health or armor. It can rescure your life, when you have low health and a selfdamage of 21 is in this situation much enough.

(05-21-2010, 07:50 AM)kojn^ Wrote: If I have to I will post video's again from other game's showing teamplay doing this, there is way way too many solo run's in nexuiz, it's not even solo run's that bother me..sure that is skill, it's the fact that when someone lasers out of a wall it's often you cannot do anything unless you have a hitscan weapon which is again back to point me and flying squirrel were making before, the other weapons are virtually redundant.
There will be always solo runs no matter what you change, when people got a different skill. only if a team got a equal skill, you wont see it.

If the attacker has to fight his way through and out then this will slow down the game terribly. This happens often on greatwall if two equal teams meet. The atker cant rush in, so everywhere is tdm atmosphere and in the end there is maybe one cap and all dislike the game.

Concerning solo-runs: You mostly will not come through with solo-runs now.

There are two possibilitys you do come through:
1. Team A has a good player who is terribly fast. Team B consists of players who are standing around and shoot each other.
2. He was lucky.

To come through with laser you NEED good covering-fire by your roamer. If i play on public and i do those laser-runs i am forced to turn around in-air and shoot the chasers, or i won't come through. If you increase the dmg this will be even harder and will end up in the nexuiz we once had when nobody knew about the laser and all just were running around.
Maybe it's a map-issue, too. You can quite easily rush in and out on dance if you have the quad and plenty health (and you already NEED plenty health). On Greatwall you will not be able to rush in easily without a team. It just isn't possible to get in and out there solemnly in a balanced game. It is just possible if you are superior.



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